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Old Feb 24, 2013, 12:10 PM   #226
citizenzen
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Originally Posted by MuddyPaws1 View Post
It's not ignorance of the date, it's the futility of being able to identify these things. Many mags don't even have a way to ID when it was built, where it was built. I just looked at my .45 mag and it has no numbers on it at all.
Soooo ... how'd the police identify the date?

They must have used their inscrutable spider-senses to intuit it.
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 12:13 PM   #227
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Anti-liberty side.

Have I thanked you recently for pointing out you're the only one here who knows what they're talking about?




Yes, that's what the anti-liberty and those not as smart as you call the gun problem.
Well it is by definition. You're seeking to take away the liberty of individuals to own certain firearms. That's anti-liberty.
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 12:28 PM   #228
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Yes. That's what I'm suggesting.
Again, I have to disagree. I don't want to sound repetitive, but again I feel it comes down to firepower. Bigger magazines confer more firepower by decreasing the reloading intervals. More firepower makes a weapon more effective in any situation where live targets are being engaged, or where speed of engagement is a factor.

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Just to be clear, I'm an anarchist. But because we're discussing the topic, and obviously we aren't going to discuss anarchy and whatnot I generally just talk about current events in the context of the government. If I don't, every thread gets sidetracked and off topic.

But yes, we're pretty much at a point where we can't reconcile. However! There is a striking difference between our positions. Mine does not involve implementing my ideas on you, whereas yours does, through banning (assuming you wanted them banned, but I think you get my drift) these items and saying that people can't have them.
Fair enough, and I agree that we are just going to disagree. Although, I would like to argue one point here: I do feel that anarchy would be an imposition on me, because I feel government is necessary and would see anarchy as an imposition of an unworkable and thus undesirable state. If you could live in anarchy and I in a republic at the same time, the situation would be imposition-neutral, so to speak. But since that is impossible, one of us is always going to feel imposed upon.

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If you have such accounts readily readable (or at least a few) I'd be interested. If not I'm not pressing you to prove it or anything like that. In my mind I just don't really think it matters that much. Maybe it matters once or twice? But in the vast vast vast majority of gun deaths (which are actually committed with low capacity clips, pistols are usually less than 15) it's not really some sort of battle where people are hoping they don't run out of ammo.
To be frank I do not have any references. But time and time again accounts of these shootings from both survivors and police officers seem to reference how "everything happened so fast" or some such comment. Usually this shootings are over in a few minutes, and my logic is that the more compressed the time frame, the more small delays can matter. The same would apply in a standoff situation if the police decide to move in - the standoff may have been happening for days, but the actual firefight at the end takes just a couple minutes - rarely more.

I'm not suggesting that magazine capacity restrictions will stop mass shootings. I am suggesting that such restrictions may, if properly implemented and coupled with other regulatory instruments with respect to firearms (such as an improved NICS), reduce the incidence of such shootings and the average number of people shot in such shootings. It's not a magic solution, and it does require sacrificing some liberties. But I believe it may be worth the cost.

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That's possible, but not necessarily the case. Especially with better quality weapons.
Obviously gun manufacturers make their products as reliable as possible. But, after handling firearms or years, I can say that jams and misfeeds are things that do occasionally happen even with the best quality weapons and ammunition. It's not the primary pillar of my argument, but I still think it's a valid point.

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Personally I don't know whether it's true or not. I think there is truth to the idea that if there are more people with guns available, it seems intuitive that there would be less death associated with mass murder or just random violence. Gun deaths may or may not go up, because people who shouldn't have guns or whatever are crazy, but I don't really think that it's something that is untrue.

FWIW I hate the NRA.
What the NRA is arguing is that more people with guns would lead to more criminals being shot in the act of committing their crimes, thus leading to innocent lives being saved. What this fails to address is that, logically, more guns would also increase the likelihood that such shootouts would come about in the first place. And there is no evidence that such a scenario would in any way turn out to be a deterrent to criminals.

On the contrary, I think it would result in an arms race; if criminals know that their victims are likely to be armed, they are more likely to arm themselves more heavily. Scenarios like the North Hollywood shootout might become the norm rather than the exception. The police would have to adopt increasingly heavier weapons to maintain force superiority.

I really don't think we ought to go down this road.


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See, I don't believe that telling people (more like forcing them) what's good for them, or that everybody should be stripped of a right because of the actions of a few, so we're just never going to agree here. I don't like the nanny state. And that doesn't mean I'm against government sponsored healthcare or anything like that, so don't get that impression.
Well, we are already in that situation with any sort of gun regulation in the first place, so while I understand your argument to an extent its really just splitting hairs in terms of opposing a magazine capacity ban. Logically, you ought to be against any sort of restriction on weapons, up to and including the most powerful available.

The point where I disagree with you is the nature of laws that you see as diktats imposed on us, whereas I see them as representative democracy at work. We are governing ourselves, not being repressed by a monolithic and unresponsive government. Again, a topic for another day.

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Completely agree. And I'm glad that you are (in my opinion) wise enough to see that banning items like silencers, bayonets, etc... doesn't really make sense.
As I said before, there is a distinction between "banning" something in the literal sense and regulating or restricting access to it. Suppressors, short barreled rifles and grenade launchers are not "banned" in the sense that they are simply unobtainable; they are regulated and can be obtained if one is a law-abiding citizen willing to jump though some hoops. This is a balance between preserving individual liberty and protecting law-abiding citizens from citizens who should not be handling such things.

The same goes with a magazine capacity "ban". Stopping the new manufacture does not get rid of the tens of millions of magazines out there now, nor does the "ban" have to be absolute; it could be written so that certain qualified persons can still have access to newly manufactured magazines while making it more difficult for unqualified persons to do the same. It would restrict the general availability of such magazines.

I'm not even guaranteeing this would all work, by the way. Just suggesting that I think it's worth trying or at least seriously talking about.

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Great. I hate getting into arguments about what the constitution says when talking about political philosophy.
Getting the constitution ratified was a chore in the first place; I'm sure the framers of the constitution knew that the meaning of the document would be debated endlessly. This is a feature of the system.
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 12:45 PM   #229
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It's not ignorance of the date, it's the futility of being able to identify these things. Many mags don't even have a way to ID when it was built, where it was built. I just looked at my .45 mag and it has no numbers on it at all.
The date doesn't matter.

In the article that idiot thought "because I had them before 1994 I thought they were legal".

But NONE of them are legal in NY. Doesn't matter if it was made last week or in 1970.

If they were legal if manufactured before a certain date, then you might have a point, but there isn't any such law. All of those AR-15 magazines are banned in this specific area, and like it was said in this thread, ignorance of the law isn't an excuse. He should have checked the law beforehand, but he didn't, so he still broke it. Since they weren't loaded, I wouldn't lock the guy up, but I would take away all his firearms licenses and not allow him to own one anymore since he is clearly irresponsible with them.
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 12:51 PM   #230
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The date doesn't matter....I would take away all his firearms licenses and not allow him to own one anymore since he is clearly irresponsible with them.
...... again leaving no room for reasonable compromise. Take no prisoners ....

Do you feel the same about anyone who has ever taken psychotropic drugs - prescribed or not?

They aren't prescribed to responsible people.
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 01:27 PM   #231
citizenzen
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...... again leaving no room for reasonable compromise. Take no prisoners ....

Do you feel the same about anyone who has ever taken psychotropic drugs - prescribed or not?

They aren't prescribed to responsible people.
Do you think that police don't arrest people they believe are in possession of or under the influence of drugs?
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 01:30 PM   #232
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Do you think that police don't arrest people they believe are in possession of or under the influence of drugs?
Don't you think that no-prisoners mentality is a problem and a leading cause for why we have so many people locked up in prisons?
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 02:11 PM   #233
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...... again leaving no room for reasonable compromise. Take no prisoners ....
Really?

The reasonable compromise is that he doesn't spend 7 years in jail for felony possession of those magazines.
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 02:34 PM   #234
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Really?

The reasonable compromise is that he doesn't spend 7 years in jail for felony possession of those magazines.
His second felony mistake was allowing the warrant less search, the first was living in New York .
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 03:11 PM   #235
citizenzen
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The reasonable compromise is that he doesn't spend 7 years in jail for felony possession of those magazines.
Exactly ... provided he doesn't have priors ... that his story reasonably checks out ... etc.

But in any case, that's not for the police to decide, that would be up to the prosecutor, judge and/or jury.

The police did their job. Now let the rest of the justice system do theirs.
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 10:16 PM   #236
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Soooo ... how'd the police identify the date?

They must have used their inscrutable spider-senses to intuit it.
I am not part of the case so I do not know. I do know that it can be very difficult to identify the date. I could show you where the date decodes differently depending on what document you use and both documents come from the same manufacturer.

But based on your childish response, I can tell you aren't interested in real world applications.

----------

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Originally Posted by zioxide View Post
The date doesn't matter.

In the article that idiot thought "because I had them before 1994 I thought they were legal".

But NONE of them are legal in NY. Doesn't matter if it was made last week or in 1970.

If they were legal if manufactured before a certain date, then you might have a point, but there isn't any such law. All of those AR-15 magazines are banned in this specific area, and like it was said in this thread, ignorance of the law isn't an excuse. He should have checked the law beforehand, but he didn't, so he still broke it. Since they weren't loaded, I wouldn't lock the guy up, but I would take away all his firearms licenses and not allow him to own one anymore since he is clearly irresponsible with them.

From the article....

Quote:
Magazines over 10 rounds have been illegal in New York since 1994, unless they were manufactured before the law went into effect.
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 10:55 PM   #237
citizenzen
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But based on your childish response, I can tell you aren't interested in real world applications.
I'm childish enough to trust the justice system will apply itself capably in this case.

So sorry to disappoint.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 05:39 AM   #238
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Well it is by definition. You're seeking to take away the liberty of individuals to own certain firearms. That's anti-liberty.
wow, this guy eric/ is like the real "lean-mean-NRA talking-point machine"....!

dude, you should make yourself available as a gun-enthusiast for hire!

seriously: the NRA, the gun lobby and the gun manufacturers should pay you some money for all the hours you devote to defend them... how many pro-gun comments in this thread only... left! right! top! down!... nothing and no one gets past him... Amazing!

(please don't get me wrong... good for you!)

cheers!
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:29 AM   #239
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wow, this guy eric/ is like the real "lean-mean-NRA talking-point machine"....!

dude, you should make yourself available as a gun-enthusiast for hire!

seriously: the NRA, the gun lobby and the gun manufacturers should pay you some money for all the hours you devote to defend them... how many pro-gun comments in this thread only... left! right! top! down!... nothing and no one gets past him... Amazing!

(please don't get me wrong... good for you!)

cheers!
i defend no manufacturer, and I hate the NRA. no need to make assumptions
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:57 AM   #240
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Attention criminals...due to the high cost and scarcity of ammunition, warning shots will NO LONGER BE OFFERED. Thank you for your understanding.

Warning shot? I thought we've been told by responsible gun owners that you never fire a warning shot.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 01:16 PM   #241
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wow, this guy eric/ is like the real "lean-mean-NRA talking-point machine"....!

dude, you should make yourself available as a gun-enthusiast for hire!

seriously: the NRA, the gun lobby and the gun manufacturers should pay you some money for all the hours you devote to defend them... how many pro-gun comments in this thread only... left! right! top! down!... nothing and no one gets past him... Amazing!

(please don't get me wrong... good for you!)

cheers!
Eric is the special kid kinda naive but lovable in his ignorance.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 01:38 PM   #242
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Warning shot? I thought we've been told by responsible gun owners that you never fire a warning shot.
You don't and the text is a joke.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 02:06 PM   #243
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Warning shot? I thought we've been told by responsible gun owners that you never fire a warning shot.
Only at humans ..... I've often fired warning shots at animals; they aren't life threatening and always respond by running away. Then again animals can't read warning signs.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 03:02 PM   #244
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Only at humans ..... I've often fired warning shots at animals; they aren't life threatening and always respond by running away. Then again animals can't read warning signs.
Where do you live? In the Serengeti?

Next time, bag me a lion.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 03:44 PM   #245
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Where do you live? In the Serengeti?

Next time, bag me a lion.
125 acres in the Ozarks. I've shot at snakes, raccoons, coyotes, deer, rats, and even warned dogs off cattle. Sorry no lions.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 04:49 PM   #246
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Eric is the special kid kinda naive but lovable in his ignorance.
I wouldn't know about lovable... but perhaps it's better to have him here, busy writing opinions, than having him loose outside playing cowboy or neighborhood watch with real guns...
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 05:19 PM   #247
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I wouldn't know about lovable... but perhaps it's better to have him here, busy writing opinions, than having him loose outside playing cowboy or neighborhood watch with real guns...
No more naive than those that see firearms not as a tool with many uses, but as a cowboy-neighborhood watch threat that can only occasionally perhaps be used for sport.

One of my almost always carry guns is a .22 magnum pistol (PMR30) with a 30 round magazine. That means although I shoot it all the time, whether I'm walking in the woods, on my tractor, on my ATV, on my boat, or in my car I never worry about carrying extra ammo or magazines.

Yeah, I know, some city-boy bleeding heart will now feel free to make a smart remark about hunting lions......
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 06:54 PM   #248
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No more naive than those that see firearms not as a tool with many uses, but as a cowboy-neighborhood watch threat that can only occasionally perhaps be used for sport.
I know, right? very few people know how useful firearms are as tools - most gun lovers only use them as prosthesis, but they can also be used as a hammer, a paperweight, as a nut cracker, as a cheering device, a bottle opener, as a firecracker simulator, as a counter-argument, as a pointing device during presentations (works better with laser sights though), a public relations enhancer, a personal alarm, as a drinking buddy, as something to reach stuff like a light switch, or to squash a nasty bug, and so much more.

Second most prominent uses still are shooting paper targets, killing non-threatening animals, other civilians whatever the situation, suicide by cop, and home children gun accidents.

And of course, the so-called self defense... but that's very rare, and it usually ends up in tears for everyone. Just ask Oscar Pistorius...

I wonder why this gun-tool thing hasn't picked enough attention - why they haven't integrated a screwdriver, scissors, a small pen and a toothpick in them - like a swiss army knife, but with a gun. They have done it with flashlights and USB memory... so why not! Perhaps integrate an iPod, an iPhone... or better yet, A CAMERA! throw some bluetooth in it, and voila... C'mon Apple!

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One of my almost always carry guns is a .22 magnum pistol (PMR30) with a 30 round magazine. That means although I shoot it all the time, whether I'm walking in the woods, on my tractor, on my ATV, on my boat, or in my car I never worry about carrying extra ammo or magazines.
Really? but.... why?

Hey, wait... I know who you are.... you're Yosemite Sam!

Name:  Yosemite+Sam+ysguns2.gif
Views: 60
Size:  8.8 KB

Seriously, is all that shooting you do legal? In any case, you must be a pretty pleasant neighbor to have around, with all that shooting...

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Originally Posted by TPadden View Post
Yeah, I know, some city-boy bleeding heart will now feel free to make a smart remark about hunting lions......
Yeah! screw all those lions...! lets kill them! HAHAHAHA

Last edited by diazj3; Feb 25, 2013 at 07:41 PM.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 08:36 PM   #249
citizenzen
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One of my almost always carry guns is a .22 magnum pistol (PMR30) with a 30 round magazine. That means although I shoot it all the time, whether I'm walking in the woods, on my tractor, on my ATV, on my boat, or in my car I never worry about carrying extra ammo or magazines.
So let me get this straight ...

You "almost always" carry around a pistol with a 30 round clip which you shoot "all the time" whether walking through the woods, riding on your tractor or ATV, on your boat or driving in your car.



WTF are you shooting at "all the time"?!

The more we know about you, the more it sounds like you have some serious issues.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 08:47 PM   #250
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So let me get this straight ...

You "almost always" carry around a pistol with a 30 round clip which you shoot "all the time" whether walking through the woods, riding on your tractor or ATV, on your boat or driving in your car.



WTF are you shooting at "all the time"?!

The more we know about you, the more it sounds like you have some serious issues.
Definitely curious.
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