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MattInOz

macrumors 68030
Jan 19, 2006
2,760
0
Sydney
Even as an Apple fan, I disapprove. :(

You don't want Apple to be about to attract the best staff?

This is a HR issue, lack of marriage equity means that the best candidate may not even apply or be receptive to employment because taking the job would mean separation from their loved one.

Sure not all the best staff are gay or other things that would make moving harder but companies the size of Apple, Google and the others on this list are employing enough people that it's an issue.
 

Fatalbert

macrumors 6502
Feb 6, 2013
398
0
Gay marriage? Don't care... except for the fact that gay rights organizations try to punish those who express their sentiment if it is against them. For that alone, I'd vote NO. Otherwise, I wouldn't have any opinion.

I'm also totally fine with it if it doesn't become part of "affirmative action". Schools already discriminate against/towards kids based on skin color. Though this seems very unlikely to happen, I do not want to see more discrimination, this time based on sexual orientation, in either direction.
 
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Moccasin

macrumors 65816
Mar 21, 2011
1,005
220
Newcastle, UK
It was a theoretical question. As I said.

Well they would still have the ability to have children. Indeed there are many gay people who do have children; either because they had children before realising their sexuality or through choice and either naturally or artificially.
 

Schmitty11

macrumors 6502
May 21, 2011
309
0
good stuff! is there a full list of the other 59 id like to know who and who is not on the list.

The only others I can find are Alcoa, Facebook, eBay, Intel, and Morgan Stanley.

With AIG, Becton Dickinson, Cisco, Cummins, Kimpton, Levi Strauss, McGraw Hill, NCR, Nike, Office Depot, Oracle, Panasonic, Qualcomm, and Xerox expected to sign the pledge later this week. Bringing the number well past 60.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.c...paign=Feed:+rss/money_topstories+(Top+Stories)
 

Speedy2

macrumors 65816
Nov 19, 2008
1,163
254
My question too... why bother having a vote if it can be overturned?:confused:

Things that are unconstitutional cannot and should not be put to a vote. No majority whatsoever should be able take basic human rights away.


The question here is whether banning gay marriage is unconstitutional.
 

Tinyluph

macrumors regular
Dec 27, 2011
191
0
I doubt it. Steve Jobs was a sociopath who had little empathy for others.

I don't know about Steve personally but I'm pretty sure Apple has made gay-rights supporting statements as far back as Steve Jobs's reign.

Pretty much every tech company is the same... Microsoft, Google, etc. have all supported gay rights on multiple occasions. This isn't exactly news.
 

Dr McKay

macrumors 68040
Aug 11, 2010
3,430
57
Kirkland
It may come to that eventually. If we break one of God's commands why not another?? Once we start rolling down the hill it's not easy to stop it. I'm not going to boycott Apple or anything. I'll still use their products. But I certainly disagree on their position. I as a Christian believe in the "traditional" view of marriage as one man and one woman. Nonetheless I've used Apple products all my life and that won't change anytime soon. I wouldn't even accept a Windows PC for free. LOL

But as a Christian you are picking parts of the Bible to follow, and choosing other parts to blatantly ignore. You can't condemn other people for picking different parts of the bible than you have to follow. This makes you a hypocrite and earns you a spot on one of the inner circles of hell.
 

Daveoc64

macrumors 601
Jan 16, 2008
4,074
92
Bristol, UK
They do when they are born. right ?

No idea.

I mean you are either born gay or you aren't . Isn't that right ?

No idea.

We don't know the answer to these things.

You can't have it both ways (not a bisexual joke).

Either:

a) It's something that just *happens* (no matter what age, or what the biological reasons for it happening)

b) It's a choice

If it's a) then we can only assume that things will continue as they do now - a minority of people will turn out to not be straight. The vast majority of people would continue to procreate as they do now.

If in some bizarre world that suddenly changes, and everyone *becomes* gay, then I don't really see what your point is. I can't answer that. There's no reason that artificial methods can't work on a large scale. Still assuming it's not a choice, there's not anything we can do to change this scenario.

If it's b) then the question becomes "what makes people choose to be gay?" - clearly it's not marriage.
 

Nunyabinez

macrumors 68000
Apr 27, 2010
1,758
2,230
Provo, UT
I half agree with you… because I'm not sure 'marriage' should be a government concern either. You can protect people's rights without dictating the terms of something so personal as the marriage relationship. But I wouldn't say the 'days are long gone' where marriage creates greater social stability. Society is the sum of its people, and each person is born to a mum and a dad, and when those two are emotionally healthy, there is great benefit to growing up under their love and care. I would agree with those who say this is the ideal. Life is rarely ideal, but I still think there's value in calling a spade a spade.

So I'm defining 'marriage' here to mean a man and a woman who, in most cases, go on to create a family. And I'd argue (although I know I'll be unpopular here for doing so), that this relationship (recognised throughout every civilised culture throughout history as far as we know) is special, and as such deserves a unique word.

If it's discriminatory to have a word that only applies to a male–female union, then I suppose we should stop using any words that distinguish gender—wife, husband, woman, man, girl, boy, daughter, son, and so on. Some brands of feminism tried to do this, in the mistaken belief that it would create equality. Diluting our language and pretending their aren't differences isn't really addressing the source of bigotry. Why can't we recognise the differences (whether we're talking about gender, or sexuality, or race, or belief), but still teach and model love and respect?

I completely agree with you. I wish that the world was such that every child was born to a mother and a father who loved each other and their children and were committed to raising them with good examples of how to behave and be moral. But while we strive for that ideal, it is unfortunately going the way of the Dodo. I don't know for sure what affect gay marriage will have on society, but I know that the other recent changes (divorce, lack of commitment, etc.) have not been for the better.
 

swissmann

macrumors 6502a
Sep 17, 2003
797
82
The Utah Alps
How would that directly harm you?

I'm sorry I don't understand your question. I understand what the question is; I don't understand how it is pertinent to anything that I stated.

I didn't intend to suggest that anything on this topic harms me.

I was asking an open question that if people feel that humans should have the right to marry whom they like as in the example of a man marrying a man then what were their thoughts on other marriages such as the examples I stated. No harm implied.
 

Fatalbert

macrumors 6502
Feb 6, 2013
398
0
Things that are unconstitutional cannot and should not be put to a vote. No majority whatsoever should be able take basic human rights away.


The question here is whether banning gay marriage is unconstitutional.

Can you show me where the Constitution defends gay marriage? I'm not denying it, just asking because I've never heard the reasoning.
 

Moccasin

macrumors 65816
Mar 21, 2011
1,005
220
Newcastle, UK
Gay marriage? Don't care... except for the fact that gay rights organizations try to punish those who express their sentiment if it is against them. For that alone, I'd vote NO. Otherwise, I wouldn't have any opinion.

I do take issue with some gay rights organisations who take that stance. In some cases they are no better than those who discriminate against gays. I say that as a gay man. Not all gay rights organisations reflect my views.
 

Schmitty11

macrumors 6502
May 21, 2011
309
0
You could technically become gay by some kind of mind alteration, but I wouldn't call it likely.

If I recall one of my Psych classes correctly,It's suggested that's the case with some females who have suffered extreme or repeated trama from men. But theres not solid evidence to support it.
 

Makosuke

macrumors 604
Aug 15, 2001
6,662
1,242
The Cool Part of CA, USA
I kind of don't understand what the hell gay marriage law changes have to do with businesses? Seriously? Sure I guess the support is appreciated by the gay community, but I just don't understand what the hell it has to do with corporations?
Since the definition of marriage effects spouse benefits that apply to the employees of a company, who is defined as a spouse effects the company. As far as taxes, health insurance benefits (which is huge for a company) and such go, it is a corporate/government issue.

(Really, that's the ONLY issue that's being discussed here--nobody is talking about forcing the clergy of any particular church to perform gay marriages. What's being advocated for is gay couples to receive equal benefits in terms of their rights under US law as non-gay couples who have declared that they are married. I, for example, can file a joint tax return with my wife, which has a lot of benefits for tax purposes. If we were of the same gender, in this state, I currently could not, which would cost us a significant amount of money each year, complicate the filing of our taxes--we'd have to do two returns--she would not be covered under my health insurance policy, we could not hold a joint bank account, we couldn't be joint owners of the sole-proprietor business we have, and a number of other purely government things that have zip to do with religious freedom.)

And fundamentally, if you want happy employees, and some percentage of your employees are gay, you want them to be as happy as your other employees, so it makes sense to speak out in favor of them having equal rights. If your gay employee's partner gets sick, and he/she is not covered by the company health plan because they cannot be legally married, and that employee misses work or their job performance suffers as a result, it's directly affecting the bottom line.

That's the purely rational approach, but it's also a decent, upstanding thing to do, and I'd like to think that there are still human beings at the helm of the monsters we call corporations who do decent things sometimes.
 

Speedy2

macrumors 65816
Nov 19, 2008
1,163
254
Or force the majority to live with the desires of the minority. Which to me seems like the minority rules. Isn't that backward?

How so?
The majority can make any law as long as it's not unconstitutional, and the minority has to abide by these laws.
 

luigi408

macrumors 6502
Jun 22, 2008
362
114
I commend Apple for standing up for what they believe in. This will drive away some customers, and bring some others in. But, this is obviously not about the customers, this is about standing behind what they feel is right, which is great.

I'm sure I'll hear about it. I live in a very Conservative area (And I guess I'm somewhat conservative myself, though liberal on some issues), I'm a strong Christian and so are most of my friends. I'm a little different than they are though. Though I'm conflicted on what the scriptures tell us about social issues like Homosexuality, God intends for us to follow Him, he never intended for the government to enforce Him, not to mention our understanding of God and the Bible is flawed and has changed countless times over the last 2,000 years! It's time we back off and focus on what God has called us to do instead of trying to spend all of our time enforcing our understanding of Christian morality on people who don't feel the same way. But; anyway, point is- I'm sure I'm going to hear all kinds of folks demanding we boycott Apple. We still buy gasoline made from oil owned by radicals in the middle easy don't we?

Anyway, that's my mini-rant. Kudos to Apple, whatever side they take, I'm glade they stand up for what they think is right, and aren't afraid of upsetting a few folks and being a little politically incorrect.

Great post. Feel the same way. Although maybe a bit more conservative about this topic but I think everyone should have the same rights. I don't agree with gays because of my religion, but who am I to tell them anything? I treat them the same as anyone else. I want everyone to be treated the same if they are good people. What they do in their private lives is not my problem.
 

Stella

macrumors G3
Apr 21, 2003
8,838
6,341
Canada
You could technically become gay by some kind of mind alteration, but I wouldn't call it likely.

There was a case recently where a man was straight as could be - macho type - but he had an accident - brain damage. He recovered as well as could be expected. After that he did become gay - dropped his girlfriend and dating men, boyfriends, dressing like a stereotypical gay etc

Yup. So, a case of mind alteration.
 

bradl

macrumors 603
Jun 16, 2008
5,924
17,400
And the CEO of the other companies are what?

Abercrombie & Fitch Co. (ANF)
Alamos Gold (AGI)
Becton Dickinson (BDX)
Cisco Systems (CSCO)
Cummins (CMI)
EBay Inc. (EBAY)
Facebook Inc. (FB)
Intel Corp., (INTC)
Kimpton Hotel & Restaurant Group
Levi Strauss (LVISF)
Marsh & McLennan Cos. (MMC)
McGraw Hill (MHP)
Morgan Stanley (MS)
NCR Corp. (NCR)
Nike Inc. (NKE)
Oracle Corp. (ORCL)
Office Depot Inc. (ODP)
Panasonic Corp. (6752)
Qualcomm Inc. (QCOM)
Sun Life Financial Inc. (SLF)
Xerox Corp. (XRX)
Zynga Inc. (ZNGA)

The only others I can find are Alcoa, Facebook, eBay, Intel, and Morgan Stanley.

With AIG, Becton Dickinson, Cisco, Cummins, Kimpton, Levi Strauss, McGraw Hill, NCR, Nike, Office Depot, Oracle, Panasonic, Qualcomm, and Xerox expected to sign the pledge later this week. Bringing the number well past 60.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.c...paign=Feed:+rss/money_topstories+(Top+Stories)


And to top this off, 80 Reds have also signed the brief, in support of gay marriage:

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...ican-leaders-sign-pro-gay-marriage-brief?lite

Once 'inconceivable,' Republican leaders sign pro-gay marriage brief
By Miranda Leitsinger, Staff Writer, NBC News

Supporters of same-sex marriage hope for a boost this week when dozens of high-profile Republicans, many no longer in office, submit their legal argument to the Supreme Court on why gays and lesbians should be allowed to wed, bucking their party's platform in a move that one who had a change of heart on the issue said would “strengthen our nation as a whole.”

More than 80 Republicans have signed the brief to be filed in the case of Proposition 8, a California law banning same-sex marriage, according to the American Foundation for Equal Rights, which is waging the legal battle against the law. The nation’s high court will hear arguments in the case in late March.

One scholar described the effort as “inconceivable” just two years ago, and one of the signers, former California gubernatorial candidate Meg Whitman, said in a blog that she had changed her mind on the issue, “like several others who have either sought or held public office, including President Obama.”

“As the Republican nominee for governor of California three years ago, I supported the majority of Californians who voted for Proposition 8 and against same sex marriage,” Whitman, president and chief executive officer of Hewlett-Packard Co., said in a statement. “After careful review and reflection since then, I have come to embrace civil marriage for same sex couples.”

She noted in her blog that same-sex families “should have equal access to the benefits of marriage” and later added: “Establishing a constitutional right of marriage equality in California will strengthen our nation as a whole.”

Six former governors, including Jon Huntsman of Utah and Christine Todd Whitman of New Jersey, and members of President George W. Bush’s cabinet, such as former Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez, four former and two current members of Congress signed the brief, AFER said. Members of the Mitt Romney and Sen. John McCain presidential campaigns also signed.

The brief will be filed Thursday, according to the Human Rights Campaign, a gay rights group. Additional names were still being added to it, said AFER, which noted one of its lead attorneys on the case was a conservative, former U.S. Solicitor General Ted Olson, who argued for Bush before the Supreme Court after the disputed 2000 presidential election.

Michael Klarman, a Harvard Law School professor and author of “From the Closet to the Altar: Courts, Backlash, and the Struggle for Same-Sex Marriage,” called it an “incredibly important development” and noted the brief could influence Justice Anthony Kennedy, whom he said was the swing vote on gay marriage.

“The fact that more and more Republicans are coming out in favor of gay marriage simply confirms how dramatic the shift in public opinion has been -- and that is a fact that likely is of great significance to Justice Kennedy,” he wrote to NBC News in an email. “Even two years ago, it would have been inconceivable that this many prominent Republicans would have been willing to buck their party platform on the issue.”

In an article last week, former Republican presidential candidate Huntsman wrote that as governor he had backed civil unions but now was supporting marriage for gays and lesbians.

“The party of Lincoln should stand with our best tradition of equality and support full civil marriage for all Americans,” he wrote. “This is both the right thing to do and will better allow us to confront the real choice our country is facing: a choice between the Founders’ vision of a limited government that empowers free markets, with a level playing field giving opportunity to all, and a world of crony capitalism and rent-seeking by the most powerful economic interests.”

Huntsman’s argument echoed parts of the legal brief, which The New York Times — first to report on the brief — said made the case that allowing same-sex marriage would promote conservative ideals of limited government and individual freedom as well as provide the children of gay couples a two-parent home.

The legal brief was dismissed by the National Organization for Marriage, which on Monday pledged $500,000 to defeat Republican lawmakers supporting any law to allow same-sex marriage in Minnesota, a state considering such legislation.

“None of these people are actively in politics. They are not running for office because they know … supporting same-sex marriage will end your career if you’re a Republican,” said Brian Brown, NOM's president. “There’s overwhelming support for traditional marriage in the Republican Party, that’s why it’s part of the party platform, and any attempt by the establishment to redefine marriage and redefine what it means to be a conservative will mean the death of the Republican party.”

But LGBT groups said the brief was further proof of changing attitudes on the issue. Marc Solomon, national campaign director for Freedom to Marry who saw the brief, said the list included Republicans going back to the Reagan administration.

He noted Meg Whitman’s new position represented a “significant shift,” while others who had signed, such as Republican Representatives Ileana Ros-Lehtinen of Florida and Richard Hanna of New York, have also sponsored federal legislation that would repeal the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), which bars federal recognition of same-sex marriage.

Steve Schmidt, who worked on the 2004 Bush re-election effort and as chief strategist on McCain’s 2008 presidential bid, has been a “powerful supporter” of same-sex marriage, Solomon said.

“I think most importantly, it’s the broad swath of leaders” on the list, Solomon told NBC News. “We’re no longer just dealing with … one or two ‘mavericks’ who are willing to sort of stick their neck out. …

“This is a big swath of Republicans, of mainstream Republicans, who view the freedom to marry as part of their conservatism rather than something separate from it.”

The Supreme Court will also hear arguments in late March on DOMA, which the Obama administration has encouraged the justices to strike down. In its argument, the federal government noted that Proposition 8 and similar measures in other states was evidence that anti-gay discrimination remained a major problem.

Now.. while I can see companies like Apple, Dell, etc. signing on to this, I'm shocked that some Republicans have also signed onto this. Colour me impressed.

Someone refresh my memory: Was it McCain's daughter that was a lesbian, or was it Cheney's? If Cheney's, I'd definitely be interested to see what he does.

BL.
 

unobtainium

macrumors 68030
Mar 27, 2011
2,597
3,859
So since we are breaking this barrier, I can marry my dog now right?

Is your dog a consenting adult? Oh wait, dogs don't legally have the power to "give consent." Nope, I guess your romantic wishes will have to go unfulfilled, Chris Blount. So sorry to be the bearer of bad news, buddy.
 
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