Smaller A5 Chip From Tweaked Apple TV Contains Only One CPU Core, Revamped Analog Circuitry

MacRumors · Mar 13, 2013, 02:19 PM

For the past few days, we've been following the story of the smaller A5 chip found inside of the recently tweaked Apple TV, seeking to understand what changes Apple has made in order to shrink the chip to roughly half the size of the previous A5 chip.

Yesterday, experts at Chipworks determined that the new A5 was still being manufactured by Samsung using the same 32-nanometer process used for the previous version, indicating that Apple had undertaken significant design changes for the chip.

Chipworks now has a full image of the A5 die, revealing that this smaller A5 chip contains only a single-core ARM CPU. Apple has listed the Apple TV as having a single-core A5 since the third-generation model launched last year, but the previous design involved a dual-core chip with one core disabled, while the new design contains just the one active core. The new A5 does still contain the same dual-core GPU found in the previous version of the chip.

Chipworks' Dick James tells us, however, that there must be more to the story in order to achieve a nearly 50% size reduction, but the firm has yet to determine exactly what other changes are contributing to the smaller die size.

A separate observation of interest involves the analog circuitry included on the chip. This new A5 chip appears to take advantage of optimized analog components such as resistors, capacitors, and inductors, yielding a mixed signal chip that seems to be a rather significant technical achievement at the 32-nanometer process node.

Quote:

My guess is that the analog sections have been re-designed, always a work in progress when we get this small, since analog circuitry does not shrink anywhere near as predictably as digital. And as Jim said earlier, we think this is now in a mixed-signal version of the 32-nm process that allows extra passive components such as resistors, capacitors, and inductors, that is much more suited to analog stuff.

It is still unclear exactly why Apple has elected to redesign the A5 for the Apple TV, as it has been assumed that the company's "hobby" does not generate enough shipment volume to warrant such an investment in and of itself. As a result, it is possible that Apple has plans to use this chip in other products, although the single-core nature of the CPU design will likely limit the range of devices for which it would be suitable.

Article Link: Smaller A5 Chip From Tweaked Apple TV Contains Only One CPU Core, Revamped Analog Circuitry

DavidLeblond · Mar 13, 2013, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacRumors

It is still unclear exactly why Apple has elected to redesign the A5 for the Apple TV, as it has been assumed that the company's "hobby" does not generate enough shipment volume to warrant such an investment in and of itself. As a result, it is possible that Apple has plans to use this chip in other products, although the single-core nature of the CPU design will likely limit the range of devices for which it would be suitable.

iWatch, obviously.

Menel · Mar 13, 2013, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidLeblond

iWatch, obviously.

Shouldn't even need as much horsepower as a single core A5.

Raftysworld · Mar 13, 2013, 02:27 PM

Any chance this will be used in the iPhone 5S? It may be a slight reduction in performance, but the increase in battery life and the ability to shrink the device pretty significantly might be worth it.

djrod · Mar 13, 2013, 02:27 PM

A5 powered iWatch here we go

Squilly · Mar 13, 2013, 02:29 PM

Meh. Wasn't really ever a fan of the Apple TV anyways. That's a really small GPU and CPU though....

Zunjine · Mar 13, 2013, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menel

Shouldn't even need as much horsepower as a single core A5.

But a low power, low clocked A5 would be a nice, cheap chip to maximise battery life, no?

gatearray · Mar 13, 2013, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raftysworld

Any chance this will be used in the iPhone 5S? It may be a slight reduction in performance, but the increase in battery life and the ability to shrink the device pretty significantly might be worth it.

Well, a snowball's chance in hell is still a chance, I guess, so the answer is yes.

LastMinuteMike · Mar 13, 2013, 02:37 PM

Yay!

**** you first revision third gen Apple TV!

----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raftysworld

Any chance this will be used in the iPhone 5S? It may be a slight reduction in performance, but the increase in battery life and the ability to shrink the device pretty significantly might be worth it.

Um... I too enjoy smoking weed sir.

The iPhone 5 utilizes the A6 chip, the 5S is expected to come with the A7.

bacaramac · Mar 13, 2013, 02:41 PM

Any chance Apple is playing around with this stuff for the rumored Apple Television? That is the only thing I can think and they will need to make parts as cheap as possible to compete and turn a decent profit. Or maybe Apple is working on deals with Cable Companies to put their tech in Cable boxes? Can't wait to see where all this goes.

coolfactor · Mar 13, 2013, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squilly

Meh. Wasn't really ever a fan of the Apple TV anyways. That's a really small GPU and CPU though....

That's fair enough, but care to say why? It's a great portal of diverse content in an elegant package. Gone are the days of multiple big complicated boxes with fans and lots of cables. So what do you use instead of AppleTV? A gaming console? And how does your setup have an advantage over AppleTV?

jrswizzle · Mar 13, 2013, 02:45 PM

I'd say it's pretty obvious they're tinkering with this chip to use it in the iWatch....

The A4 is too big (and on its way out anyways), so the A5 is the logical choice to be tinkered with and put into the iWatch.

alent1234 · Mar 13, 2013, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidLeblond

iWatch, obviously.

iTV

TV speakers are analog
maybe lots of other parts in a TV as well

jrswizzle · Mar 13, 2013, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raftysworld

Any chance this will be used in the iPhone 5S? It may be a slight reduction in performance, but the increase in battery life and the ability to shrink the device pretty significantly might be worth it.

No.

----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by alent1234

iTV

TV speakers are analog
maybe lots of other parts in a TV as well

Why on earth would they worry about "shrinking" the size of the chip if they're simply going to put it in a TV.....

Mike MA · Mar 13, 2013, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squilly

Meh. Wasn't really ever a fan of the Apple TV anyways. That's a really small GPU and CPU though....

Well, it does its job.

SockRolid · Mar 13, 2013, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacRumors

... but the previous design involved a dual-core chip with one core disabled, while the new design contains just the one active core.

... It is still unclear exactly why Apple has elected to redesign the A5 for the Apple TV, as it has been assumed that the company's "hobby" does not generate enough shipment volume to warrant such an investment in and of itself. As a result, it is possible that Apple has plans to use this chip in other products, although the single-core nature of the CPU design will likely limit the range of devices for which it would be suitable.

I'd guess that shipping two cores and only using one was a way of increasing yields (aka minimizing cost.)
Pushing the envelope with a new process will result in unusable cores.
Using the better of the two cores (or whichever one actually worked) "saved" some chips.
Maybe by now the process has been perfected so a single core can be reliably manufactured.

And, because Apple TV is a relatively low-volume product, there's less pressure. Big deal. Its only Apple TV.
Shrinking die size could cause delays, which would be costly with high-volume products.
If Apple TV A5 yields are below expectations, then slip the estimated ship dates. So what?
If yields are OK, then run off a batch of chips and you're good for months. Yay.

Of course, if you were paranoid, you might think that Apple is doing two things with the Apple TV A5.
1. Limit the amount of advanced chip design that Samsung sees. For obvious reasons.
2. Give TSMC a low-risk chip to make, to improve their process and to test their quality.

coolfactor · Mar 13, 2013, 02:48 PM

Interesting that they would invest in rearchitecting an existing chip. Is it powerful enough to run the full gamut of existing iOS apps? Because that's where I see AppleTV going. Imagine apps like FaceTime running on your big screen. Just need to have a camera and audio input.

Robert.Walter · Mar 13, 2013, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacaramac

Any chance Apple is playing around with this stuff for the rumored Apple Television? That is the only thing I can think and they will need to make parts as cheap as possible to compete and turn a decent profit. Or maybe Apple is working on deals with Cable Companies to put their tech in Cable boxes? Can't wait to see where all this goes.

I was thinking set top box too.

Is anything still broadcast w an analogue signal? If so, this might explain the mods.

cocky jeremy · Mar 13, 2013, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raftysworld

Any chance this will be used in the iPhone 5S? It may be a slight reduction in performance, but the increase in battery life and the ability to shrink the device pretty significantly might be worth it.

They'd be stupid to reduce performance, even if it helped battery life. Can you imagine the **** they'd catch for that? Other companies would have a field day with that.

"The all new, slower iPhone."

thedeejay · Mar 13, 2013, 02:52 PM

Oh ok

Koodauw · Mar 13, 2013, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.Walter

I was thinking set top box too.

Is anything still broadcast w an analogue signal? If so, this might explain the mods.

Or what about a low cost iPhone?

nazaar · Mar 13, 2013, 02:57 PM

oh wow how interesting!

powers74 · Mar 13, 2013, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidLeblond

iWatch, obviously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by djrod

A5 powered iWatch here we go

Quote:

Originally Posted by alent1234

iTV

TV speakers are analog
maybe lots of other parts in a TV as well

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koodauw

Or what about a low cost iPhone?

Beat me to it.

Time Less · Mar 13, 2013, 03:05 PM

i'm always fascinated by these xray chip images. looks like a satellite view of area 51 or something, crazy.

voyagerd · Mar 13, 2013, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrswizzle

[/COLOR]

Why on earth would they worry about "shrinking" the size of the chip if they're simply going to put it in a TV.....

Smaller chips are more cost effective to fab.

Mar 13, 2013, 02:27 PM	#5
djrod macrumors 6502a Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Madrid - Spain	A5 powered iWatch here we go __________________ 404 : Signature not found
	9

Mar 13, 2013, 02:41 PM	#10
bacaramac macrumors 65816 Join Date: Dec 2007	Any chance Apple is playing around with this stuff for the rumored Apple Television? That is the only thing I can think and they will need to make parts as cheap as possible to compete and turn a decent profit. Or maybe Apple is working on deals with Cable Companies to put their tech in Cable boxes? Can't wait to see where all this goes. __________________ iMac 27" 3.06Ghz 2TB Time Capsule AppleTV3 x 2 16GB iPhone 5 White/Silver AT&T iPod Touch 4th Gen White and 5th Gen Yellow iPad mini White/Silver 16GB WiFi
	3

Mar 13, 2013, 02:45 PM	#12
jrswizzle macrumors 68020 Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: McKinney, TX	I'd say it's pretty obvious they're tinkering with this chip to use it in the iWatch.... The A4 is too big (and on its way out anyways), so the A5 is the logical choice to be tinkered with and put into the iWatch. __________________ iPhone 5 32GB (black/slate) / Nexus 4 16GB / HTC One 32GB (white/silver) 21.5" iMac 2.5GHz i5 / iPad mini AT&T 32GB (black/slate) / Apple TV 2 & 3
	2

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Mar 13, 2013, 02:27 PM	#4
Raftysworld macrumors regular Join Date: Oct 2011	Any chance this will be used in the iPhone 5S? It may be a slight reduction in performance, but the increase in battery life and the ability to shrink the device pretty significantly might be worth it.
	0

Mar 13, 2013, 02:29 PM	#6
Squilly In Time-Out Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: PA	Meh. Wasn't really ever a fan of the Apple TV anyways. That's a really small GPU and CPU though....
	1

Mar 13, 2013, 02:48 PM	#17
coolfactor macrumors 65816 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Campbell River, BC, CANADA	Interesting that they would invest in rearchitecting an existing chip. Is it powerful enough to run the full gamut of existing iOS apps? Because that's where I see AppleTV going. Imagine apps like FaceTime running on your big screen. Just need to have a camera and audio input.
	1

Mar 13, 2013, 02:52 PM	#20
thedeejay macrumors regular Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Canada	Oh ok
	0

Mar 13, 2013, 02:57 PM	#22
nazaar macrumors regular Join Date: Oct 2008	oh wow how interesting!
	0

Mar 13, 2013, 03:05 PM	#24
Time Less macrumors regular Join Date: Jul 2010	i'm always fascinated by these xray chip images. looks like a satellite view of area 51 or something, crazy.
	3