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Oletros

macrumors 603
Jul 27, 2009
6,002
60
Premià de Mar
Of course it does, they control Android. I see you bring insults while I bring research reports. Have a good day. :)

You don't have provided a single proof that it is not open, you have to retread what you have posted. But it is clear what are you doing do I won't waste more time with your FUD. Have a nice day

Tell Amazon that Google control their operating system.
 

Tech198

Cancelled
Mar 21, 2011
15,915
2,151
...and it continues... again

What makes it easy for the user to get info from Google Now, causes trouble for Apple......

Keep it up..
 

skratch77

macrumors 65816
Mar 20, 2013
1,241
5
Im not sure what the heck you guys are arguing over but if its not been said android is open source and open platform,you can download the pure souce code right off googles servers and the kernel is open to molest to any device you want to code it for.

windows is open platform but its source code and kernel is locked down tighter then the us department of treasury.Do you know how bad it would be if a hacker had full access to windows source code and kernel?

say good buy to the stock market as they are run on windows nt servers lol

this is right off google.com

The Android Source Code

Android is an open-source software stack created for a wide array of devices with different form factors. The primary purpose of Android is to create an open software platform available for carriers, OEMs, and developers

http://source.android.com/source/index.html
 

subsonix

macrumors 68040
Feb 2, 2008
3,551
79
Im not sure what the heck you guys are arguing over

Perhaps you should make sure before you respond.

The question is not if Android is open or not, it's if auxilary Google services in practice is part of what makes up the platform at large.

How does Google make money on Android?
 

GermanyChris

macrumors 601
Jul 3, 2011
4,185
5
Here
Perhaps you should make sure before you respond.

The question is not if Android is open or not, it's if auxilary Google services in practice is part of what makes up the platform at large.

How does Google make money on Android?

ads the same way they make money on everything.
 

subsonix

macrumors 68040
Feb 2, 2008
3,551
79
ads the same way they make money on everything.

Yes… And they can serve ads based on data collected from various services, services that is an integral part of the platform that Android is part of. Which is why Android in isolation, ie just the OS without services is quite pointless from Google's point of view.
 
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GermanyChris

macrumors 601
Jul 3, 2011
4,185
5
Here
Yes… And they can serve ads based on data collected from various services, services that is an integral part of the platform that Android is part of. Which is why Android in isolation, ie just the OS without services is quite pointless from Google's point of view.

Google bought Android because people spend more time away from their personal computer that with it. With Android now the get just about every waking minute. This completes the data set which means more add revenue. If Google services were required to use Android I'd agree with you. I don't believe for a second that Google does not collect data with every service they provide, nor do I think that the "services" are not a hook to continue using the Android platform, but they do not necessarily complete the Android platform the Android platform is complete without them.

Android was in ingenious buy by Google, they can collect data on most of the developed world. Services mean the can collect data on what many small businesses around the globe are doing. Youtube lets them keep up on whats hip.
 

subsonix

macrumors 68040
Feb 2, 2008
3,551
79
Google bought Android because people spend more time away from their personal computer that with it. With Android now the get just about every waking minute.

But what difference does it make for Google if people use iOS or Palm or Symbian or MeeGo?

The important thing is that people use, Gmail, Google search, Google market, maps etc.

The fact is, with out services Google would make no money on Android, in fact they would loose money since they are the main contributor, and it costs a lot of money to build and maintain an operating system.
 

GermanyChris

macrumors 601
Jul 3, 2011
4,185
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Here
But what difference does it make for Google if people use iOS or Palm or Symbian or MeeGo?

The important thing is that people use, Gmail, Google search, Google market, maps etc.

The fact is, with out services Google would make no money on Android, in fact they would loose money since they are the main contributor, and it costs a lot of money to build and maintain an operating system.

The would because they still have your eyes and your searches all day long. Android is money maker based solely on that fact all day long.

The problem with "The important thing is that people use, Gmail, Google search, Google market, maps etc." is many of us don't use these services on other OS's be it PC or mobile, with Android they are default and folks tend to be lazy but they are not required.


Google's prime asset is not it's services or it's Android it it's huge quantity of data and the algorithm's that search it and produce specific and accurate data sets.

In the end it's all sorta meh..

With Apple I'm choked with iTunes, with Android I got gmail and it's associated crap, with BB I'm stuck with BBM and it's reliance on not well funder servers.

Pick your poison and roll with it.
 

subsonix

macrumors 68040
Feb 2, 2008
3,551
79
The would because they still have your eyes and your searches all day long. Android is money maker based solely on that fact all day long.

Only if I use Google search (a service)

The problem with "The important thing is that people use, Gmail, Google search, Google market, maps etc." is many of us don't use these services on other OS's be it PC or mobile, with Android they are default and folks tend to be lazy but they are not required.

Exactly my point! It's those services that are part of the platform, at least that's Google's intention. Without them Android would just be Google giving a free (as in gratis) operating system to OEMs with little to no gain.

Google's prime asset is not it's services or it's Android it it's huge quantity of data and the algorithm's that search it and produce specific and accurate data sets.

Yes and they collect that data through services they provide to the public.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/01/21/does-google-have-a-serious-problem-with-android/
 
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LordVic

Cancelled
Sep 7, 2011
5,938
12,458
Except when there was no discernible IP protection, people did. I give you the wheel, the cart, the hammer and the axe, by no means an exhaustive list of developed technologies that had no more protection than breathing.

There is quite an extensive list of technologies that were developed because there was a problem to solve. The closest to protection you had to IP protection was your ruling/military classes bulling other manufacturers into shutting down operations. Most of the technologies we have in our hands today is a rehashing of the unprotected technologies. Clever, I've no doubt, and imo worthy of some reimbursement for efforts. It is just the claim that people won't create without IP protection that bugs me. As far as I can tell, creativity is accelerated under lack of protection not because stifled because of its lack.

To further this, sadly, the Medical industry of late has become an industry that has been hampered due to the patent and IP concept.

There are many drugs and trials that have been passed up and not researched fully and deeply by companies and organizations because they are unpatentable or not deemed profitable or protectable by the organization. Many of which could cure a lot of disease.

There are just times that Patents and the protection of IP law is a barrier to advancement.
 

subsonix

macrumors 68040
Feb 2, 2008
3,551
79
There are many drugs and trials that have been passed up and not researched fully and deeply by companies and organizations because they are unpatentable or not deemed profitable or protectable by the organization. Many of which could cure a lot of disease.

There are just times that Patents and the protection of IP law is a barrier to advancement.

I don't get this, it's a supporting argument for IP. And in fact drug research is typically given as an example where patents can help innovation, because of the astronomical costs of developing a new drug.
 

LordVic

Cancelled
Sep 7, 2011
5,938
12,458
I don't get this, it's a supporting argument for IP. And in fact drug research is typically given as an example where patents can help innovation, because of the astronomical costs of developing a new drug.

Patents only encourage innovation and design where profit is a #1 motivation. Unfortunately, this isn't always good. Many innoveation, invention and design gets ignored or left behind because of lack fo profitability, Despite perhaps being better for humanity as a whole.

An example: (I'll have to find the video later). Recent study found a very cheap and easy to produce cure for many cancers with a very very high success rate. However because of how simple the cure turned out to be, and that it was not capable of being patented, Every drug company passed up on funding it's research and then buried.

This is an example of where the patent and "corporate greed" has become a direct barrier to the advancement that would better human kind.
 

subsonix

macrumors 68040
Feb 2, 2008
3,551
79
Patents only encourage innovation and design where profit is a #1 motivation. Unfortunately, this isn't always good. Many innoveation, invention and design gets ignored or left behind because of lack fo profitability, Despite perhaps being better for humanity as a whole.

It wouldn't need to be driven by profit, it can also serve as a safety net from losses. If a company needs to spend 10 years and enormous resources to develop a new drug, they may never do that if they can not protect themselves from someone copying the finished result, undercutting them on price without without costs to recoup.

An example: (I'll have to find the video later). Recent study found a very cheap and easy to produce cure for many cancers with a very very high success rate. However because of how simple the cure turned out to be, and that it was not capable of being patented, Every drug company passed up on funding it's research and then buried.

This is an example of where the patent and "corporate greed" has become a direct barrier to the advancement that would better human kind.

That particular example (if it's simple to produce) sound like greed, I agree.
 

GermanyChris

macrumors 601
Jul 3, 2011
4,185
5
Here
Only if I use Google search (a service)



Exactly my point! It's those services that are part of the platform, at least that's Google's intention. Without them Android would just be Google giving a free (as in gratis) operating system to OEMs with little to no gain.



Yes and they collect that data through services they provide to the public.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/01/21/does-google-have-a-serious-problem-with-android/

1) I don't use google search on my Nexus 7, nor do my wife or I use the gmail account it's tied to, I don't even use the chrome browser, yet I still get targeted ad's every time I unlock

2) The services can be part of the platform if you choose there are other services most just don't care because Google works.

3)Not a soul argued that they don't

================

You are mistaking me for someone who wants to argue a point with you I responded to only one part of you post because that all I wanted to get into you were embroiled in a semantical debate that was going no where. Google sells advertising based on it's huge collection of data not Android, or Services those to thing just feed it's core business. You are missing the forrest for the trees.

If your looking for a debate go back an debate Oletros.
 

subsonix

macrumors 68040
Feb 2, 2008
3,551
79
You are mistaking me for someone who wants to argue a point with you I responded to only one part of you post because that all I wanted to get into

Well, it was a rhetorical question (in that the answer is obvious)

Google sells advertising based on it's huge collection of data not Android, or Services those to thing just feed it's core business. You are missing the forrest for the trees.

You say that they have a huge collection of data. But where do they get the data from?

They collect it from various services.
 

LordVic

Cancelled
Sep 7, 2011
5,938
12,458
It wouldn't need to be driven by profit, it can also serve as a safety net from losses. If a company needs to spend 10 years and enormous resources to develop a new drug, they may never do that if they can not protect themselves from someone copying the finished result, undercutting them on price without without costs to recoup.



That particular example (if it's simple to produce) sound like greed, I agree.

I agree with Patents in a lot of the practical theory. An ivnentor should have reasonable assurance that they have the entitlement to protection for their work.

I have a problem however with the practical application of software patents.

There's no good translation from the original intention of Patents and their protection of INVENTION (not, not innovation), and to modern software.

when the Patent system was invented, it was designed to protect the means of accomplishing a task. But not the task itself. For simple example, lEts pretend the Hammer was patented.

The Patent would be the design of the hammer, The hard top that strikes and the marriage of the two into a tool useful for accomplishing a task.

Software patents of today tend to be less about the means to accomplish the tasks, and the outcome of the task. So in the hammer case "driving a nail into wood".

This narrow scope and defnitiion of the task to be accomplished instead of the means to accomplish it is crippling. There are many ways to accomplish many tasks. using this example, if you were to say, invent a new tool in which to drive a nail into wood, you would be violating the patent of the Hammer, Despite the tool being completely different (say, mechanical air piston that drives the nail).

A modern example of where I see this could be some of the patents Apple has repetively attempted (and hasn't really ever won on) to sue on. The method to draw 3d images on a UI Display. They often claim that if you're drawing a 3d image as partof the UI, that it is violating their patent.

To me this is the task. Not the method to accomplish the task. The method is the coding in which accomplishes it. So in Apples claim, Nobody else should have the right to Draw a 3d image on a UI. Meanwhile, It is a given that this task is, and can be accomplished by multiple different coding means and methods.

(not trying to pick on apple just first example that came to mind).
But this to me is the biggest issue I have with modern software patents. They're patenting the outcome. the Task to be accomplished, not the direct and precise means to accomplish the task, which leads to incredible amount of vagueness, and the ridiculous amount of Patent lawsuits we're seeing around the world, especially in the software industry. I see Patents as a barrier to advancement in this regard. When you can no longer accomplish the meneal tasks in order to devise your own solution, you prevent future growth related to that task, should someone come up with a better, more efficient or more advanced way
 
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skratch77

macrumors 65816
Mar 20, 2013
1,241
5
Pure asop android does not come with ANY google services.if you guys have ever unlocked and romed a phone you would know that you flash the rom/os and then if you want you can flash gaps(google apps)that included all there services.

You can install the latest jellybean os on a device and use firefox browser and not use youtube or and other google service if you want
 

GermanyChris

macrumors 601
Jul 3, 2011
4,185
5
Here
Well, it was a rhetorical question (in that the answer is obvious)



You say that they have a huge collection of data. But where do they get the data from?

They collect it from various services.

The data is the ads are the business, not the services. It's a forest for the tree's situation.
Again the services do not "complete" the Android package. The services do not fund android development. The data derived from all the services to include Android provide the funding for all the services to include Android.
 

subsonix

macrumors 68040
Feb 2, 2008
3,551
79
The data is the ads are the business, not the services. It's a forest for the tree's situation.

They make revenue by selling ad space, the more targeted ad the higher price.

They can target ads by collecting data about the user, serving ads on an Android makes no difference from serving ads to an iOS device, or a PC or a Mac.

Which brings us back to the original point, if the purpose is not to collect data, there is no benefit for Google having Android. They never needed a desktop OS to serve ads for example.
 

GermanyChris

macrumors 601
Jul 3, 2011
4,185
5
Here
They make revenue by selling ad space, the more targeted ad the higher price.

They can target ads by collecting data about the user, serving ads on an Android makes no difference from serving ads to an iOS device, or a PC or a Mac.

Which brings us back to the original point, if the purpose is not to collect data, there is no benefit for Google having Android. They never needed a desktop OS to serve ads for example.

The benefit of Android is getting your eye's while you away from your computer. The reason is free to OEM's is to get it on as many devices as possible this equals more eye's and more data. Android is no different than drive and gmail it's another source of data.

There is no altruism in Android..
 

subsonix

macrumors 68040
Feb 2, 2008
3,551
79
The benefit of Android is getting your eye's while you away from your computer.

That benefit would be there on any mobile device regardless of OS. They do not need to own an OS to accomplish that.

The reason is free to OEM's is to get it on as many devices as possible this equals more eye's and more data. Android is no different than drive and gmail it's another source of data.

There is no altruism in Android..

An eye would equal one ad served, not data. But as I said above, they can serve ads on iOS, or any OS for that matter. It's not a benefit unique to Android.
 

GermanyChris

macrumors 601
Jul 3, 2011
4,185
5
Here
That benefit would be there on any mobile device regardless of OS. They do not need to own an OS to accomplish that.



An eye would equal one ad served, not data. But as I said above, they can serve ads on iOS, or any OS for that matter. It's not a benefit unique to Android.

They did with it what MS did with PC's. They provided the software and let the HW OEM's compete on price. This naturally drove the price of finished HW and it's components down, this broadened the the mobile market, the drive to the bottom put google in front of more eyes than just serving ads to BB, iOS, and Symbian ever could.

In 07/08 smart phones were expensive, now joe public can get a smart phone for $20 off contract. Smart phones activations are supposed to exceed feature phone activations this year. This drive down was pushed by Google. This also leads to the sticky situation they are in with Samsung. Samsung is the leading Android OEM, yet they were not chosen to produce the Nexus line. This sorta pushed the development of Tizen forward it's Androids largest OEM telling Google they really don't need them. Now that Google has Moto mobility we have a nice little Mexican stand off.
 

subsonix

macrumors 68040
Feb 2, 2008
3,551
79
They did with it what MS did with PC's. They provided the software and let the HW OEM's compete on price. This naturally drove the price of finished HW and it's components down, this broadened the the mobile market, the drive to the bottom put google in front of more eyes than just serving ads to BB, iOS, and Symbian ever could.

In 07/08 smart phones were expensive, now joe public can get a smart phone for $20 off contract. Smart phones activations are supposed to exceed feature phone activations this year. This drive down was pushed by Google. This also leads to the sticky situation they are in with Samsung. Samsung is the leading Android OEM, yet they were not chosen to produce the Nexus line. This sorta pushed the development of Tizen forward it's Androids largest OEM telling Google they really don't need them. Now that Google has Moto mobility we have a nice little Mexican stand off.

But there are surely other operating systems that would have taken Androids place. The most obvious being Windows phone. And the lower prices is also a result of the technology maturing.

Tizen is interesting in that Google uses the Android trademark and it's market, and other services "as a club" to make sure OEMs do what they want (from the Open governance index). Modified versions of Android needs to be certified, meaning the access to services and the trademark is seen as something attractive to OEMs, the app market in particular I would say.

But I think other emerging platforms are more interesting. Why should OEMs that aren't interested in Google or google's services use Android at all? There is Ubuntu for mobiles and Firefox OS and the new OS from former Nokia crew, Sailfish.
 
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