San Francisco Mayor to Take Another Look at Apple's Proposed Union Square Store Following Criticism

When ever you see an architect propose a "box". That is a building with just four wall brought out as close to the edge of the property as they can you know it was build "to cost". It is the best way to maximize interior volume to cost ratio. This is what Apple is doing here building the largest store that can for the minimum cost.

My suggestion is to loose much of the first floor. But most of the store in the ground and on the second floor. Leave the first floor as open space, like a small plaza. Maybe benches and a map koy pound and fountain. Big glass elevator goes both up and down into the store.

Get apple to resubmit a new design... otherwise if critics and politicians have their way, the fountain will be built into the glass staircase of the new apple store!


Or better yet, if they want to keep it so bad, how build it into the middle of the staircase of the SF City Hall?

It's going to be landmarked

You really have to stand close to this fountain to appreciate it. It draws you in with its myriad quirky and charming images. This is a bas-relief work of art. You have to be near it to really see it and appreciate it. The posters here who claim it looks "melted" or "like a blob" don't know what they're talking about. They haven't seen it except in photos.

Anyhow, word around the campfire here in SF, where I live (and I take it most of the Apple fans who post here don't), is that the fountain will be landmarked by the City. With landmark status, nobody can change it or alter it in in any way.

Fans of the fountain -- and they are influential people in the Bay Area -- have come to its rescue. They have even more clout than Apple itself, at least here in the city by the bay.

Finally some sense. The proposal is a poorly imagined glass shoe box with an atrocious blank wall. I'd expect a company known for its good design to do much much better.

As for criticism towards the fountain, if the everyday knuckle-dragging mouth-breather had their way Art would be confined to ultra realist paintings of fruit and b00bs. The artist is a prolific asset to the community and the fountain represents San Fran's evolution as such. It would be in extremely poor taste for to not accomodate it.

JayCee842 said:

Ummm, not a democracy, it's a republic...

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I keep seeing this meme lately on MacRumors, and I wonder where it comes from. FYI:

1. "Republics" and "democracies" are not contradictory. A country can be both.
2. The US is both a democracy and a republic. It is a specific form of democracy known as a "representative democracy."

This is not a battle. Building designs in most large cities often go through many revisions.

The box shape Apple has proposed is not very imaginative. I love walking around SF looking at the architecture. I really wish Apple would put a little more thought into making this a beautiful building. So it looks like a pro forma effort.

The long blank wall on Stockton will be a graffiti magnet. That will really be ugly.

Apple could do something like they did in NY. Widen the sidewalk, put in a below ground floor to regain the floor space. Right now it looks like a fortress.

On your iPad use Apple maps to find union square in SF and use 3D view to see this location from different angles.

paul4339 said:

Or better yet, if they want to keep it so bad, how build it into the middle of the staircase of the SF City Hall?

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Cause nobody at City Hall wants that ugly fountain there. SF is a city of whiners. I live in San Francisco, and it's amazing, there are more people who oppose "corporate" anything than anywhere else I've ever been. They're a very very small minority of people, but they whine the loudest because they don't work, don't pay taxes, and have a whole lot of time on their hands. They're fighting a build of Chipotle on Market street because they don't like corporations coming in, yet in the location it's a beat up old building that 3 tenants have tried and failed in operating a restaurant the past 10 years. SF has horrid traffic, yet this small group was able to get the city to shut down an entire lane on each side on Market Street (the busiest and most congested street in the city) and dedicate it just for bikes (who, by the way, refuse to use it because they feel entitled to use the car lane because the law allows them)....

I wish the city could rid itself of the infestation of disgusting filth, and finally make a little progress. It's such a beautiful city, but the tiny minority ruins it. They ruined the airports plans to build a runway that would alleviate the plagued separation issues the current runways have, all to save a couple mud frogs.

It's sad really. Clearly this is not a democracy. The city is at the mercy of the citizens who don't pay taxes, and don't put money into the economy.

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neutrino23 said:

The box shape Apple has proposed is not very imaginative. I love walking around SF looking at the architecture. I really wish Apple would put a little more thought into making this a beautiful building. So it looks like a pro forma effort.

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As many have posted already, stop comparing SF to NYC. If you're going to build in earthquake country, it's an entirely different type of build than in non-earthquake country. Clearly you don't understand that. The building has to have 3 walls that are NOT glass. If it were between 2 buildings it would be different, but it's not, it's on a corner, so do the math.

rdlink said:

It's one thing to try to blend into historic buildings and architecture. But 1970s architecture is not really something we should be trying to preserve...

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And why not. You say this now, but brutalism and neo-expressionism will have their day, much like Mid-C-Mod has had its. And how then will "we" be judged.

The proposed vaguely modernist rectangle is both an insult to the modernists since it mimics their design language without the essential interplay of space, and to the person (pedestrian) which was the point of all the reactions to modernism, public space needs some humility and warmth to make it real. The fountain and the steps around it provide that.

Maximizing the square footage of your building subject to parcel size constraints does not make for good architecture. Better than what was there, maybe (remember the Levi's store is roughly triangular so it has form and a presence ignoring the signage), but in no way as good as what could be. That is everybody's problem with this store, its unimaginative, its boring, and its derivative. Loss of the fountain and the steps around it means the loss of yet another public space, a space that can be whatever it wants to be. What do we gain instead?

Ugh, let me also say that if the same knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers had their way with community planning we'd end up with a hideous America, the largest strip mall on Earth. Luckily we have the "tiny minority" that fight for a bit of class to our culture. SMH.

Four oF NINE said:

I'm not sure that particular fountain is especially noteworthy, I don't see the appeal of that one.

Not sure what could be done with the blank wall, but someone will get creative with it.

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Apple could do something similar to this for the 80' blank wall:



Why should Apple waste a perfectly good opportunity to do some shameless self promotion.

As for the fountain and steps I don't really care for it. That area only serves as a place for tired tourist to rest their feet for a while and a side entrance to the adjacent hotel. The upgraded Union Square Park right across the street is a much better place to sit and relax.

A featureless cubic structure stucture like.that doesnt even belong in a mall, much less S
F.

IGregory said:

Not that I am in favor of all this historic preservation crap but I would say a significant structure that dates back to the 1970s (40 years ago) would meet the definition of historic. The reason I know is, you see I too am a relic. I go back 20 years earlier.

I'm sure, Apple being Apple, will come back with a plan that satisfies everyone.

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I am, actually in favor of historic preservation. True historic preservation. For instance the integration of the UK Covent Garden and Regent Street Apple stores is quite beautiful and appropriate. My point being that the 70's, while a very significant time in our history were not known for much compelling architecture. Sometimes we just have to admit that certain times were not the renaissance for a particular area of art or design. Sort of like sports stadiums of the 60's and 70's. They were largely hideous monstrosities that tried to do everything OK, but did none of it well. That's why they're all gone now. And I'm from before the 70's, also.

Again, I'll reiterate my earlier post. The beauty of Union Square will only benefit from this design. Especially given what it would be replacing.

AZREOSpecialist said:

This is what all the fuss is about:

Yes, folks, everyone is up in arms over this incredibly ugly fountain. Are they frickin' serious? And the artist who made this fountain should have his or her credentials revoked!

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Artists don't have credentials. Maybe in soviet USSR but not in the West. And many artists aren't dependent on the opinions of others.

I, on the other hand, do hold credentials. I'm qualified in explaining art to other people (!) - took a course in being a gallery guide many moons ago - involved researching art works, understanding art theory, preparing talks, working with an audience, public health and safely etc. I worked at the Tate Modern for nearly a year.

Looking at the photograph of the work ... , I've not been nearer than 3000 miles, I'm not going to bother researching who made it ... just looking at the photo:

- it's a large bronze piece with a beautiful aged patina. Rich and highly detailed. You could spend a long time looking at the scenes and still find new detail.
- it's in good condition, no graffiti
- it's at a human scale, which can be rare in public art which tends towards the monumental and inpersonal. America needs more humanity.
- it's highly tactile - you are invited to go up and feel it, it's accessible to children and blind people. Again, this is rare to see in valuable sculpture, which usually has notices saying 'do not touch' around it.
- it's accessible - you can look at it and see houses and other human artefacts - the fountain doesn't require a degree in art theory to understand
- it was built over 40 years ago, which is long enough ago that we can begin to see it in a historical context, as part of the evolution of US culture from the 50's to the 60's to the 70's and later.
- it's handmade and unique. I would be surprised if there is another fountain like this by a different artist.
- it will outlast the Apple store. When the store is gone, the fountain will still be remembered.
- I would guess that the bronze scenes show local views, which have possibly gone. This fountain might be the only record of these views.

With some research, I could tell you about the artist's life, her philosophy, how this fountain reflects these elements, how she created this artwork, why she chose these elements. I could point out the human importance of the various scenes on the walls. Some of them may reflect moments in time, whether good or bad, that she thinks need to be remembered down the ages.

Note: I haven't told you whether it's 'good' or 'bad' art. That's up to you. I've only pointed out some of the stories that lie behind it, some of the things that went into its creation, perhaps helped you to discover some hidden detail that has given you a reflective pause, possibly a reconsideration of your views.

leontief said:

And why not. You say this now, but brutalism and neo-expressionism will have their day, much like Mid-C-Mod has had its. And how then will "we" be judged.

The proposed vaguely modernist rectangle is both an insult to the modernists since it mimics their design language without the essential interplay of space, and to the person (pedestrian) which was the point of all the reactions to modernism, public space needs some humility and warmth to make it real. The fountain and the steps around it provide that.

Maximizing the square footage of your building subject to parcel size constraints does not make for good architecture. Better than what was there, maybe (remember the Levi's store is roughly triangular so it has form and a presence ignoring the signage), but in no way as good as what could be. That is everybody's problem with this store, its unimaginative, its boring, and its derivative. Loss of the fountain and the steps around it means the loss of yet another public space, a space that can be whatever it wants to be. What do we gain instead?

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It was hideous then. It's hideous now. It will always be hideous.

ArtOfWarfare said:

We're not in a democracy though - if we were, we wouldn't have representatives - everything would be decided through extensive polling of all of the people.

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Representative democracy is still democracy.

RedTomato said:

Looking at the photograph of the work ... , I've not been nearer than 3000 miles, I'm not going to bother researching who made it ... just looking at the photo:

- it's a large bronze piece with a beautiful aged patina. Rich and highly detailed. You could spend a long time looking at the scenes and still find new detail.
- it's in good condition, no graffiti
- it's at a human scale, which can be rare in public art which tends towards the monumental and inpersonal. America needs more humanity.
- it's highly tactile - you are invited to go up and feel it, it's accessible to children and blind people. Again, this is rare to see in valuable sculpture, which usually has notices saying 'do not touch' around it.
- it's accessible - you can look at it and see houses and other human artefacts - the fountain doesn't require a degree in art theory to understand
- it was built over 40 years ago, which is long enough ago that we can begin to see it in a historical context, as part of the evolution of US culture from the 50's to the 60's to the 70's and later.
- it's handmade and unique. I would be surprised if there is another fountain like this by a different artist.
- it will outlast the Apple store. When the store is gone, the fountain will still be remembered.
- I would guess that the bronze scenes show local views, which have possibly gone. This fountain might be the only record of these views.

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A very thoughtful critique of the artwork. Thanks for that. I challenge the people who so strongly object to it to explain why in this much detail.

You hit on two things that make the fountain so beloved in SF: it is highly tactile and it's handmade. And it does show local views some of which are gone -- which adds to its appeal as a historical record.

You're right -- it will outlast the Apple store. It will also outlast the Apple Corporation.

rei101 said:

The fountain is horrible but the design of the new store is not doing any better neither.

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I kinda agree. The Apple Store design looks like a giant toaster oven to me.

Pietro25 said:

A very thoughtful critique of the artwork. Thanks for that. I challenge the people who so strongly object to it to explain why in this much detail.

You hit on two things that make the fountain so beloved in SF: it is highly tactile and it's handmade. And it does show local views some of which are gone -- which adds to its appeal as a historical record.

You're right -- it will outlast the Apple store. It will also outlast the Apple Corporation.

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I'll also add that some people consider 40 years insignificant as "historic." But that seems an awkward comment at best. If there is such disregard for something like this (not saying there will be) then how can such pieces of history (even as young/old as 40 years) every BECOME historic. If the attitude is always - no big deal - just move it - then a piece could never obtain that kind of longevity to satisfy.

Meh....

Typical SF. As for "The Fountain." People, get a life.

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samcraig said:

I'll also add that some people consider 40 years insignificant as "historic." But that seems an awkward comment at best. If there is such disregard for something like this (not saying there will be) then how can such pieces of history (even as young/old as 40 years) every BECOME historic. If the attitude is always - no big deal - just move it - then a piece could never obtain that kind of longevity to satisfy.

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Come on. Man Hole Covers are 40 years old. Just rip the freaking POS down.

rdlink said:

I've been to Union Square many times. That store as drawn up in that rendering would be the best looking thing in the area. Period.

It's one thing to try to blend into historic buildings and architecture. But 1970s architecture is not really something we should be trying to preserve...

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The store is a big shiny "toaster oven". One side too much wide-open glass, and the other huge and blank silver.

Give up 20 foot off the end and let it be tied to completing the square commons across the street... Fountains, bus stops, etc that won't just be a giant canvas for graffiti.

Glideslope said:

Typical SF. As for "The Fountain." People, get a life.

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Come on. Man Hole Covers are 40 years old. Just rip the freaking POS down.

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Like I said, I challenge the people who so strongly object to the fountain to explain why instead of making these unclassy shoot-from-the-hip comments.

I don't think you're up to the challenge.

Classify and categorize

Qfic said:

Ugh, let me also say that if the same knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers had their way with community planning we'd end up with a hideous America, the largest strip mall on Earth. Luckily we have the "tiny minority" that fight for a bit of class to our culture. SMH.

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the "tiny minority" seems to be great a lumping everyone that disagrees with them into some derogatory categories like "knuckle draggers" or "mouth-breathers", etc.

msimpson said:

the "tiny minority" seems to be great a lumping everyone that disagrees with them into some derogatory categories like "knuckle draggers" or "mouth-breathers", etc.

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As the opposite is true calling the "tiny minority" a plethora of derogatory labels, a list too long and nasty for this message board. The truth is that it has always been a minority that drives society forward while the rest are terrified by change and try to hold progress back until their generation finally dies off. The ones who grew up with the debated concepts end up moving them forward in line with the previous minority. In summary, mouth-breathers and knuckle-draggers are fair labels. Deal with it.

Pietro25 said:

Like I said, I challenge the people who so strongly object to the fountain to explain why instead of making these unclassy shoot-from-the-hip comments.

I don't think you're up to the challenge.

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There is no challenge. It's a grotesque piece of molecular scat.

rette said:

Apple could do something similar to this for the 80' blank wall:

Image

Why should Apple waste a perfectly good opportunity to do some shameless self promotion. [...].

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The fountain consists of 41 bronzed plaques, they could cut the fountain into pieces and
put it on the side of the wall..