No storage--Apple may have done you a favor!

SDAVE said:

I will omit the USB 3.0 card and the GPU card, because those are available either way.

1. Black Magic Ultra 4k card (I have to get a $300 external PCIe enclosure to thunderbolt adapter....OR buy a new device that replaces the functionality, somehow. Taking this route, I will still lose money).

2. Pro audio card, this is used for ProTools and I cannot afford to buy a new one. So it goes into another PCIe enclosure ($300).

3. PCIe SSD (Velo x2), sure this can be omitted, but that means I can't put in SSD's, so I have to get TB based external SSD's or a huge RAID system with SSD's, which costs a TON of money. The 2x Crucial SSD's and the Velo X2 only cost me $900 total, giving me 1TB of space and amazing performance. My internal HDD's are used as backup devices and then I use external USB 3.0 hard drives to do daily backups of the backups.

Get where it's going? Thunderbolt is still very expensive. Enclosures are nonexistent. USB 3.0 is cheaper, sure. But you are not going to get the same performance of SATA III (RAID 0) or Thunderbolt 1 or 2 with USB 3.0

My OS drives, I omitted from this because the OS is on a super fast PCIe flash based device on the new Mac Pro...but come on, it will only be used for the OS and not for holding actual data like large video files, etc. How big do you think Apple is going to have the onboard flash storage? 256GB? 512GB? That's not enough.

I think Apple just wants the Mac Pro to be a device that's just a "head", ie all the connections need to be external either via gigabit network (which is not fast enough for certain things) or Thunderbolt. Also what will happen if we want to go on a Fibre-channel network? Will there be a TB2 > Fibre-channel adapter? And how much will that cost? $10,000?

The Mac Pro is like the Mac Mini, but much faster and with more ports.

Anywho, this doesn't stop me from doing work, I still have my trusty '08 Mac Pro until it poops out.

Click to expand...

Hmmm... You seem to have more PCIe slots than I do... GPU, USB 3, Black Magic, Audio card, and Velo x2... How do you get all this to work with the current Mac Pro? Swap cards?

It seems that what you're trying to do will actually be easier on the new Mac Pro than whatever you're juggling here now.

BTW, most are expecting the new Mac Pro to offer anywhere from 512GB to 2TB of BTO SSD internally (that performs at 1200MB/s). If that's not enough, Promise makes the J4 TB enclosure for SSDs for a reasonable $370.

VirtualRain said:

BTW, most are expecting the new Mac Pro to offer anywhere from 512GB to 2TB of BTO SSD internally (that performs at 1200MB/s). If that's not enough, Promise makes the J4 TB enclosure for SSDs for a reasonable $370.

Click to expand...

I think this is where the "two sides" are both correct but neither are specific enough. Yes, 1200MB/s is enough for certain things. But the "unknown" factor is what speed will the J4 Promise box play files? Dealing with 5K, h.264 and uncompressed 10bit files, it would be a gamble just to "see" if it works. Meaning you spend the money on the MP 6.1 and the Promise box and in the end your files don't work as they should. Now as for just external "storage", there is no gamble.
I have mentioned this several times but if Apple is so high on this MP 6.1, show real world numbers in comparison.
Apple, put the MP 6.1's name on the line!
"We at Apple submit these comparison numbers for the "none believers"! "As you can see, with the same number of drives in an external TB box, our numbers far exceed those of PCIe!"

VirtualRain said:

Hmmm... You seem to have more PCIe slots than I do... GPU, USB 3, Black Magic, Audio card, and Velo x2... How do you get all this to work with the current Mac Pro? Swap cards?

It seems that what you're trying to do will actually be easier on the new Mac Pro than whatever you're juggling here now.

BTW, most are expecting the new Mac Pro to offer anywhere from 512GB to 2TB of BTO SSD internally (that performs at 1200MB/s). If that's not enough, Promise makes the J4 TB enclosure for SSDs for a reasonable $370.

Click to expand...

Yes, I swap between the USB 3.0 card and the audio card once a month.

I would assume 512GB to 2TB BTO cost would be tremendous, given Apple's history of overpricing component upgrades on their BTO options. The best 512GB SSD's on the market are around $400 right now. Apple will overcharge. And who works off of an OS drive anyway?? No one.

$370 for an SSD enclosure is not reasonable. This is probably the cheapest RAID enclosure with TB that I've found that can do 4 drives and doesn't cost a billion dollars.

OS6-OSX said:

I think this is where the "two sides" are both correct but neither are specific enough. Yes, 1200MB/s is enough for certain things. But the "unknown" factor is what speed will the J4 Promise box play files? Dealing with 5K, h.264 and uncompressed 10bit files, it would be a gamble just to "see" if it works. Meaning you spend the money on the MP 6.1 and the Promise box and in the end your files don't work as they should. Now as for just external "storage", there is no gamble.
I have mentioned this several times but if Apple is so high on this MP 6.1, show real world numbers in comparison.
Apple, put the MP 6.1's name on the line!
"We at Apple submit these comparison numbers for the "none believers"! "As you can see, with the same number of drives in an external TB box, our numbers far exceed those of PCIe!"

Click to expand...

The 1200MB/sec rhetoric is useless, because:

a) No high end studio works off the OS drives.
b) No high end studio will pay through the teeth to upgrade to a 2TB internal flash drive. Large files are stored on network storage, not locally. Also no one needs 1200MB/sec. I don't care if you're doing 5k uncompressed.

In the high end production studios, files are usually fed through Fibre-channel, etc. Local storage is definitely used when things need to be done online.

It will be a fast machine, no doubt, and will sell, but that's not the point and Apple is driving away a certain demographic that this machine is geared towards. They did that with FCP. I won't be getting this new Mac Pro, probably cave in for the second generation possibly next year.

Also no room for a second CPU, why opt for a second GPU but not a second CPU? That is insane and doesn't make any sense. Also I won't even mention the design. It looks ugly. Should have looked like the aluminium MacBook Pros...but that's another story.

Someone resurrect Steve Jobs.

Anyway, this is a never-ending heated debate. I just feel like Apple took the wrong turn on this one and you can't really "innovate" in this area, it's a niche market. They shouldn't have made such a huge jump. The Mac Pro derives from the professional G5 line, and that's a 10 year design. They completely dumped that and opted for a portable Mac-mini type machine, which is fine for a certain group, but not fine for the higher end group.

SDAVE said:

Also no one needs 1200MB/sec. I don't care if you're doing 5k uncompressed.

In the high end production studios, files are usually fed through Fibre-channel, etc. Local storage is definitely used when things need to be done online.

Click to expand...

You may not care if 5K is being done and "no one needs" 1200MB/sec but the R3D 5K footage that's stuttering does!
Try a R3D 4K 5 stream multicam shot with your PCIe SSD (Velo 2x) and then say "no one needs" 1200MB/sec.
Not all R3D footage is dealt with only in "high end production" houses. There is no monopoly on that like Apple is trying to do with TB.

OS6-OSX said:

You may not care if 5K is being done and "no one needs" 1200MB/sec but the R3D 5K footage that's stuttering does!
Try a R3D 4K 5 stream multicam shot with your PCIe SSD (Velo 2x) and then say "no one needs" 1200MB/sec.
Not all R3D footage is dealt with only in "high end production" houses. There is no monopoly on that like Apple is trying to do with TB.

Click to expand...

R3D footage is lossy wavelet based compression format that gets the raw data from the bayer information from the sensor. The only reason it stutters is because the CPU can't process the footage at full res, so in turn people use Red Rocket cards to accelerate as it is a GPU card.

Actually I was cutting Red Epic 5k footage shot at 96fps the other day with no problem on my 2008 Mac Pro...of course I don't have a red rocket, so I have to stop down to 1/2 resolution in PPro.

And I have no problem with my PCIe SSD, I actually get around 900MB/sec for the read...so 4 streams will be easy. R3D footage is actually not that heavy in terms of datarate, it's more about decompressing it in realtime. This is why Alexa footage is easier to handle than R3D because even Arriraw doesn't use wavelet compression, and many DP's shoot in ProRes 422 (HQ) or 444 on the Alexa.

1200MB/sec is overkill. And do you know how much space RAW footage takes? I highly doubt 2TB is enough for people. And it will probably cost $3,000 from Apple just to get it as an upgrade. People will use external TB enclosures for sure, no one is going to use the internal PCIe flash drive for footage.

P.S. here's a calculator for Red datarates, FYI.

http://www.red.com/tools/recording-time

P.S. even high end people like Fincher shoot at 5:1, no one shoots at 3:1.

OS6-OSX said:

You may not care if 5K is being done and "no one needs" 1200MB/sec but the R3D 5K footage that's stuttering does!
Try a R3D 4K 5 stream multicam shot with your PCIe SSD (Velo 2x) and then say "no one needs" 1200MB/sec.

Click to expand...

You guys mind just getting a room ?

I'm sure it'll be easy to squeeze lots of bandwidth out of the new MP eventually, but I don't think future potential means anything to anyone for the next 2-3 years .

The few niche users and eggheads are always easily swayed, but for a lot of users the moment of truth is when the new thing comes out of the box and gets plugged in .
Instant gains , seamless compatibility, minimal extra expense ? Right .

Tide and time waits for no man , and certainly not for Apple .

thekev said:

Moving processing out to remote servers does happen. It is not something mainstream at the desktop level, where many things have suitable power. Render farms are sometimes remote. You generally have to schedule time to use one. Where do you see these solutions being used within the next 3 years in a seamless manner? Are you anticipating static data sizes and fios everywhere? You are just regurgitating fads based on what is theoretically possible rather than looking at the anticipated usage patterns of the majority of individuals and businesses who will buy this thing.

Click to expand...

Is there something specific about the design of the new mac pro that suggests I think Apple intends to move processing off the workstation, or did you not understand that I was providing you with yet another example in the trend of turning workstations back into thin clients, as you so prefer to call them? It's a bit of a rhetorical question seeing as you doubted the fact that computers have been getting smaller over the past few decades. The point is that the need for mass internal storage is more of a rarity than not these days, with the trends moving in similar directions (though not at the same pace or period) for the other parts of your computer.

Static data sizes? Is there something about the design of anything that would require 'static data sizes' in order to facilitate remote anything??

Mainstream desktop level? No, but last I checked we aren't talking about a mainstream desktop.

pprior said:

Yah, for those of us who have been around computers for 30 years plus we have seen this fad come and go. "thin computing" never is a viable option for bulk of users for a wide variety of reasons.

There are notable multibillion dollar companies that have gone out of existence due to reliance on this foolish strategy.

The "cloud" like facebook, is a flash in the pan. Here today, gone tomorrow.

Click to expand...

Yawn. if you'd been around long enough you'd realize it's a function of the general costs of computing. When computers were first used they were thin clients. They were terminals. That design philosophy continued through the early 2000s even, and now only exists in dinosaur shops. So to call it is a fad is revealing your own ignorance.

Who said relying on the strategy? The economics changed and it became incredibly cheap to provide and manage employees with what they needed on their desktop. This meant paying less money to some vendors. However, it's not that it's too expensive to provide these things anymore. The issue now is that shipping data over the wire gets cheaper and cheaper. Every cent cheaper that gets, it's more profitable to centralize. Very simple really. Not sure why you have to resort to lame platitudes to try and make your point when the evidence shows you are wrong anyway.

The cloud is a fad? Sure thing, bud. I bet no one is going to be uploading anything to the internet in 5 years! Youtube will disappear too!

Furthermore you've completely misunderstood my point if you think I'm suggesting that Apple design a thin client. The point is that Apple designed a machine that is accounting for the current trends in storage. I was pointing out a similar and parallel trend that I thought would serve as a greater illustration of this concept for those of you that struggle to understand it. I guess it's my bad for bothering.

SDAVE said:

The only reason it stutters is because the CPU can't process the footage at full res, so in turn people use Red Rocket cards to accelerate as it is a GPU card.

Actually I was cutting Red Epic 5k footage shot at 96fps the other day with no problem on my 2008 Mac Pro...of course I don't have a red rocket, so I have to stop down to 1/2 resolution in PPro.

Click to expand...

And the reason you can play/edit the 5K footage is a combination of the 900MB/s, CPU but mainly the "Mercury Engine". I have tried PP6 and have experienced the "Mercury Engine" and put it thru it's paces. There is no mystery there. No Red Rocket needed.
You are speaking from a PPro point of view. Perform the same editing with other NLE's and see if you come to the same conclusion. See how each one differs. See if you end up in a "transcoding" black hole!
And yes speeds exceeding 1200MB/s for an internal boot drive may not be needed. When I spoke of "speeds" it pertained to editing which would "not" be on the OS drive.

thekev said:

It would have been funnier if you said you wouldn't touch it with a 50-foot optical thunderbolt cable.

Click to expand...

I don't think anyone will be doing that, considering they're vaporware and are likely going to be priced at over $800.

Wild-Bill said:

I don't know about the OP, but I have seen a LOT of noobs posting since Apple's "sneak peek" of the trash can, and its definitely not a coincidence.
There seems to be an Apple presence trying to extol the virtues of "external everything".

Click to expand...

MacVidCards said:

Yes, a rather sad commentary that Apple feels bad enough to unleash this squad of moles to sway opinion. They know horse poop when they see it

Click to expand...

I get this feeling as well.

portishead said:

Yup. I don't want to pay extra for a bunch of extra SATA controllers I'm not going to use. I'm going to have an external box either way. I'm glad Apple is keeping it simple.

Click to expand...

How much do you really think you pay for that? There are $100 motherboards with six 6Gbps SATA ports. Why don't you compare that to how much someone like me would pay to run my SATA Raid, now that I have to buy a Thunderbolt SATA controller for hundreds of dollars.

APlotdevice said:

Though personally I have little interest in this or any Mac Pro, do hope the new one is a success. Why? Because it would drive up demand for, and thus drive down cost of, thunderbolt peripherals.

Click to expand...

You know that statement is the exact opposite of the law of demand, right?

What you meant is that it will draw more competition and economy of scale into the TB market over time, thus driving down the price.

I just cleaned out some old floppy disks, don't miss that storage.

slughead said:

You know that statement is the exact opposite of the law of demand, right?

What you meant is that it will draw more competition and economy of scale into the TB market over time, thus driving down the price.

Click to expand...

Yes, that was the implication. Hence why I never used the word "supply" .

OS6-OSX said:

And the reason you can play/edit the 5K footage is a combination of the 900MB/s, CPU but mainly the "Mercury Engine". I have tried PP6 and have experienced the "Mercury Engine" and put it thru it's paces. There is no mystery there. No Red Rocket needed.
You are speaking from a PPro point of view. Perform the same editing with other NLE's and see if you come to the same conclusion. See how each one differs. See if you end up in a "transcoding" black hole!
And yes speeds exceeding 1200MB/s for an internal boot drive may not be needed. When I spoke of "speeds" it pertained to editing which would "not" be on the OS drive.

Click to expand...

I've cut Red 5k @ 96fps from a USB3.0 spinning drive (PCIe adapter in my MP 2008)...no problem.

You're just geeking out over the numbers. Any of these machines are fully capable of doing work. I'm just wondering, what are you doing that's so important that you'll need 1200MB/s from the OS drive???

I'm just pissed that the new Mac Pro is NOT dual CPU capable and doesn't have room for internal PCIe slots and/or HDD storage (at least 2.5"). Once again, people will conform and bite the Apple...

Also no worries on NLE's. FCP 7 needs transcoding, sure. PPro and any modern NLE will take advantage of native raw import. I enabled Mercury Playback with a hack on the 5770, too bad it doesn't work well. I still have to play back at 1/4.

SDAVE said:

You're just geeking out over the numbers. Any of these machines are fully capable of doing work. I'm just wondering, what are you doing that's so important that you'll need 1200MB/s from the OS drive???

I'm just pissed that the new Mac Pro is NOT dual CPU capable and doesn't have room for internal PCIe slots and/or HDD storage (at least 2.5"). Once again, people will conform and bite the Apple...

Also no worries on NLE's. FCP 7 needs transcoding, sure. PPro and any modern NLE will take advantage of native raw import. I enabled Mercury Playback with a hack on the 5770, too bad it doesn't work well. I still have to play back at 1/4.

Click to expand...

Don't need 1200MB/s from the OS drive. Any mentioning of "speed" pertains to "editing" drives (raid).

We agree about the new Mac Pro.

So as shown on youtube you just hack the line and added the 5770 to the list of cards? As you see in my sig I use the Q4000 and it worked very well with short stint with PP6.

And you should rephrase this to "PPro and "most" modern NLE's will take advantage of native raw import". I use Avid Media Composer 6. Until summer 2012 MC was 32bit. MC6 has been 64bit only about a year! MC7 is now out but with the same engine. Avid is way behind in that aspect. That's why the fast raid speeds are still needed with MC or Symph. Avid still does not use the GPU or the amount of ram in the computer!