1Password Available for $10 Off Through Mid-August

alkalifly · Aug 8, 2013

It's not like AgileBits are going in to 1password v3 and *removing* the ability to sync with Dropbox. It is Dropbox who is changing their API and breaking the functionality, and I don't believe that Apple would allow AgileBits to distribute an update to v3 now that v4 is out and being distributed on the App Store.

Sure, it stinks when companies remove features, but I'd like to think that AgileBits can take the time they would otherwise be spending having to troubleshoot wifi sync in order to improve other features of the software without having to hire more developers and raise their prices. Plus, with Dropbox sync, you are storing a file that is itself encrypted with 256-bit AES on servers that Dropbox further encrypts with 256-bit AES and transports via SSL. I can't imagine that is any less secure than many people's home wifi networks

opq · Aug 8, 2013

alkalifly said:
It's not like AgileBits are going in to 1password v3 and *removing* the ability to sync with Dropbox. It is Dropbox who is changing their API and breaking the functionality, and I don't believe that Apple would allow AgileBits to distribute an update to v3 now that v4 is out and being distributed on the App Store.

Sure, it stinks when companies remove features, but I'd like to think that AgileBits can take the time they would otherwise be spending having to troubleshoot wifi sync in order to improve other features of the software without having to hire more developers and raise their prices. Plus, with Dropbox sync, you are storing a file that is itself encrypted with 256-bit AES on servers that Dropbox further encrypts with 256-bit AES and transports via SSL. I can't imagine that is any less secure than many people's home wifi networks

The issue is the workaround suggested by drop box. Obviously wi fi sync is *somewhat* useful at least then, right?

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AGKyle said:
We can't really discuss things that weren't in the keynote, but here's a list of things we feel differentiate us.

* We work on Mac, Windows, iOS, Android and Windows Phone.
* We provide extension support for Chrome, Firefox, and Internet Explorer, in addition to Safari.
* We provide other syncing solutions, including Dropbox sync which is multi-platform. Need to use a PC at work? We can work with that.

The Windows Phone client hasn't been updated in FOREVER! It has almost none of the functionality and looks disappointingly ugly! Oh and it only works with Dropbox. Are there plans for a new version?

alkalifly · Aug 8, 2013

opq said:
The issue is the workaround suggested by drop box. Obviously wi fi sync is *somewhat* useful at least then, right?

No doubt it is a useful feature for the people who use it (tautology) but it sounds like it was not working very well for some people, so it is all about tradeoffs. I prefer Dropbox syncing myself, but never updated to v4 because v3 worked fine and I didn't want to pay $18. Now that an update is required to keep using Dropbox sync, I think AgileBits did the right thing with this >50% discount, and I took advantage of it as soon as I saw the news

sinsin07 · Aug 9, 2013

eWallet for the win. Much nicer.

Reason077 · Aug 9, 2013

How does this compare with the new "iCloud Keychain" feature in iOS 7 and OS X Mavericks?

I'm guessing that iCloud Keychain will be better since it'll be more tightly integrated with the OS. So, there isn't much point purchasing 1Password unless you plan to stick with old OS versions for a while?

Stella · Aug 9, 2013

ConCat said:
Erm...

How much Objective-C development have you done? Its smalltalk-like syntax is far clearer than any other language I've ever used... Perhaps you're just used to C syntax?[/QUOTE]

Several years worth. ObjectiveC is very clear to read. Very verbose. ObjectiveC has its positives and negatives. Just find it tedious personally.

jonnysods · Aug 9, 2013

I love the desktop version of this. Don't really care for the app though. Not as integrated.

ValSalva · Aug 9, 2013

jonnysods said:
I love the desktop version of this. Don't really care for the app though. Not as integrated.

I don't think it can be with iOS sandboxing. You have to use 1Password's browser. It's not as convenient but AgileBits has no choice

The two most important basic apps on my Macs are 1Password and Dropbox.

volfan615 · Aug 9, 2013

AGKyle said:
Ok, friendly neighborhood AgileBits Tech Support here to help answer some questions and concerns. Sorry for the delay here, this is my _second_ time responding, thanks to the forum for logging me out and erasing my reply... last time I trust this forum. Apparently I need to write up replies in a text editor first

We thought long and hard about removing wifi sync. It wasn't an easy decision but as someone who helped troubleshoot wifi related syncing issues I can assure you that many of the users who are unhappy with its removal didn't run into the trouble many other users seen. It wasn't pretty. There are so many network configurations, so many different routers, and so many different quirks that we couldn't support it for most of our users. You wouldn't believe the number of issues with networking equipment you can run into. Between proxy servers, firewalls, router configurations and all manner of other things...

USB Sync allows us more control. We have better ways to troubleshoot it, we have better understanding of where it can fail and it isn't dependent on millions of different networking configuration settings.

We hope that our unhappy users can try to see it from our perspective, we do the same with you and we hear every wifi sync request loud and clear. We just don't have a good way to provide it or fix it from what we had previously. Mutual understanding is good Once both parties understand each other then progress can be made.

If you have big thoughts on usb sync or wifi sync please contact us directly, a public forum isn't a good place to discuss it because things can get lost very easily. Especially when it isn't our own forum.

Only on 1Password 3 for iOS. All other platforms will continue to work, including Mac, Windows, iOS (version 4 of 1Password) and Android and Windows Phone.

Thanks for the positive comment. I always try to respond to these because I feel like sometimes they can get lost in the sea of other questions. So, we all appreciate seeing the positive comments.

Just to clarify here, it's only 1Password 3 for iOS, version 4 for iOS will continue to work fine.

We agree, it stinks. We're trying to do what we can to help users though. The sale and trying to offer work arounds. Our support team is working around the clock to try to assist and answer any questions. We're trying to help however we can.

If you can, just use wifi sync. It is for Mac only. But you can use Dropbox sync in addition to wifi sync. So, if you have any new devices running 1Password 4 for iOS, then you can continue to sync those with Dropbox, but the iPad 1 can sync via wifi. Inconvenient perhaps, but it does work.

If you need help setting this up let us know at our support email. Link in my signature.

Only version 3 of 1Password for iOS only.

Mac, Windows, Android, Windows Phone and 1Password 4 for iOS will continue to sync with Dropbox.

We've sent emails inviting all beta applicants to try the beta application as of today. That's over 25000 users trying 1Password 4 for Mac. We want to release it as soon as we can but we need to do thorough testing and there are still a few bugs and unfinished features.

I can't give a date, but definitely stay tuned, we'll get it out to you as soon as we can!

As for version 3, you're welcome to buy 1Password 3 for Mac now, you'll get a free upgrade to version 4 for Mac. We've been doing that all year.

Yea, this is a not so great situation right? We agree though.

1Password 4 for iOS CAN backup to Windows, but cannot restore. We have some ideas for how to fix this (such as allowing a zipped version of the keychain folder to be added instead). I'll stress this with our developers to see if we can get some progress on this.

Also, iCloud syncing is not turned on by default any longer. During the initial setup process you're asked if you want to enable it or not. So, improved now

We can't really discuss things that weren't in the keynote, but here's a list of things we feel differentiate us.

* We work on Mac, Windows, iOS, Android and Windows Phone.
* We provide extension support for Chrome, Firefox, and Internet Explorer, in addition to Safari.
* We provide other syncing solutions, including Dropbox sync which is multi-platform. Need to use a PC at work? We can work with that.

At AgileBits we think this is a good thing. Apple being involved now provides a bit of a boost in mindshare right? Users see that this is a problem with their passwords and want to do something about it. iCloud Keychain brings to more people's attention what we've been trying to do for years.

1Password is good for both new users and advanced users, ultimately, we feel that iCloud is not a one size fits all solution and for those who are looking for a power user app or more features or cross platform integration, we can fill that gap.

At the end of the day, we want users to be more secure. Even if it isn't with our app.

We're working hard on 1Password for Android. See a very quick preview here:

http://blog.agilebits.com/2013/07/14/1password-new-android-screenshots/

Isn't the new Keychain in the next version of OS X going to make this product obsolete?

shartypants · Aug 9, 2013

Jibbajabba said:
I am impressed how much people pay for a password app.

You don't use such an app? We have just way too many accounts these days!

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volfan615 said:
Isn't the new Keychain in the next version of OS X going to make this product obsolete?

It might have some better features? But yeah, I think most people will just use what's in the new OS.

arkmannj · Aug 9, 2013

Thanks for the Reply

Dear AGKyle,

First I want to thank you for taking the time to reply to everyone. Especially with some heat in the fire, you are to be commended for stepping in.

Second, I LOVE 1Password, and have only ever had 2 real complaints (listed below) 1Passord is easily one of my most used apps, and I recommend it to friends all the time. I"m pretty sure there are atleast a couple dozen people out there using it based purely on my recommendation.

Third, I complain because I do love the app, and I do love using my money to support independent developers, etc... But at the end of the day I need to make a decision, does an app meet my needs, and my wants for the money I spend. (a personal ROI evaluation on every purchase I make essentually) so when I see something I feel could be improved I want to make mention of it to developers so that I can continue to have a positive ROI and justify the purchases.

Wifi Sync has worked flawless for me, and so the thought of losing it really is a big deal, and certainly for my personal uses deflates the value of the product by having it missing. I do understand and try to see your view point of supporting it. But right now there really is not another acceptible alternative. If we use Dropbox we are tying are most valueble data to a third party in the cloud who may or may not be sharing that information with others (PRISM comes to mind) and USB sync is still in Bete isn't it? and besides, a wired solution really isn't a fair replacement for a wireless one.

I again, do understand you have to make your own determinations of value, and if WiFi was such a support nightmare then I can see why you would need to consider its removal. But I personally haven't heard of any issues with all the people I know that use it. Would it be possible to add it back in as an "advanced" feature, with warnings, etc...?

------------------
The only two issues I've really had were:
* Mac Versions didn't have exact feature parity -
For example, The version of 1Password downloaded directly from agilebits didn't have the menubar access that the "same version" of 1Password from the app store did.

* The removal of Wifi Sync
Will 1Password 4 for Mac lose the ability to WiFi Sync with 1PAssword 3 for IOS? I really hope not.

AGKyle said:
AGKyle

AGKyle · Aug 9, 2013

saberahul said:
I enjoyed 1P until v4 was released because of the way the whole thing worked out. I support the idea that companies need to stay alive and need users to upgrade but by removing the old version altogether and revoking update capabilities, they aren't doing much good to users who wish not to upgrade. Let's not forget that we paid for that and by breaking it - the purchase basically goes down the drain. I'm not going to complain about scant cents; however, if Agile kept the old version alive, made it cheaper than the new version due to lack of new features, but still updated it in case things like this happen, I would have been a lot happier.

Anyhow, my post isn't going to change reality. I've been using OneSafe on my iOS devices and Mac and am very happy with it (I just wish they would put in a full browser in the iOS version). Needless to say, I will likely remove all 3rd party apps once Mavericks and 7 are publicly released.

There are a lot of valid reasons for us not keeping the old app up for sale.

The biggest, there were 3 versions (iPhone, iPad, and Pro). We'd have to have kept all three up. That would've been 4 versions in the store (iPhone, iPad, Pro, and 1P4). Confusion couldn't possibly have been any worse.

We certainly wish Apple provided a better mechanism for this. Unfortunately, we are beholden to how Apple runs their store. Not to say Apple is entirely to blame but I think many developers will agree that they wish Apple provided more options for upgrading and supporting applications better after the upgrade.

That said, I don't think we were the first to do this, nor will we be the last. Tweetie 2 did this, Tweetie 1 was a separate app and was removed from the store after version 2 came out. I suspect you'll see this with many bigger indie shops as well in the future.

chabig · Aug 9, 2013

Reason077 said:
How does this compare with the new "iCloud Keychain" feature in iOS 7 and OS X Mavericks?

For one thing, the user interface of Keychain isn't as friendly.

throAU · Aug 9, 2013

lilianeloirinha said:
This is so unfair! Shame on AgileBits. First off, I had to pay full price some time ago because of this issue. Suddenly they're offering a huge discount, I wonder why... OH THAT'S RIGHT! iOS 7 AND MAVERICKS ALREADY HAVE PASSWORD SYNCING!

iCloud keychain does not:

work with my windows machine
encrypt my database using MY private key that apple will not have before syncing to a location of my choosing
work cross-browser

I'm running mavericks, tried iCloud keychain and those details are a deal breaker for me.

1password also has a handy password generator.

And yeah, don't get the App Store version... get direct from agile bits.

edit:
If you're looking for something almost as slick, that is OPEN SOURCE, FREE and cross platform without disclosing your details to iCloud for sync - check out KeePass. I use it at work, and if i had have known about it before 1password i may have not bought 1password. 1password is still slicker though.

Jibbajabba · Aug 9, 2013

shartypants said:
You don't use such an app? We have just way too many accounts these days!

----------

It might have some better features? But yeah, I think most people will just use what's in the new OS.

I do, just not paying that sort of money just for the sake of cloud sync. There are tons of free apps out there. Nothing stops you to store the safe on a dropbox folder and use it across devices.

AGKyle · Aug 9, 2013

opq said:
The Windows Phone client hasn't been updated in FOREVER! It has almost none of the functionality and looks disappointingly ugly! Oh and it only works with Dropbox. Are there plans for a new version?

Dropbox is the most useful here because it's the most cross platform syncing service available. It works on literally every operating system/mobile device. It was the obvious choice for getting things working.

Right now, our developers are working hard on 1Password 4 for Mac, 1Password 4 for Windows and the new Android application. Windows Phone may not receive any major updates for awhile. I'm not sure what the long term plans are for it, but if you have any concerns please contact us directly via the signature link below.

Reason077 said:
How does this compare with the new "iCloud Keychain" feature in iOS 7 and OS X Mavericks?

I'm guessing that iCloud Keychain will be better since it'll be more tightly integrated with the OS. So, there isn't much point purchasing 1Password unless you plan to stick with old OS versions for a while?

I had made a post earlier in the thread about this, I believe it's on page two, you may wish to go read that.

volfan615 said:
Isn't the new Keychain in the next version of OS X going to make this product obsolete?

Same as above, there are definite pros and cons for every solution you just have to figure out which matter the most to you. Example, do you need to use a PC at work or want to use Chrome or Firefox? Well, iCloud keychain isn't going to help you there I don't think

arkmannj said:
Dear AGKyle,

First I want to thank you for taking the time to reply to everyone. Especially with some heat in the fire, you are to be commended for stepping in.

Second, I LOVE 1Password, and have only ever had 2 real complaints (listed below) 1Passord is easily one of my most used apps, and I recommend it to friends all the time. I"m pretty sure there are atleast a couple dozen people out there using it based purely on my recommendation.

Third, I complain because I do love the app, and I do love using my money to support independent developers, etc... But at the end of the day I need to make a decision, does an app meet my needs, and my wants for the money I spend. (a personal ROI evaluation on every purchase I make essentually) so when I see something I feel could be improved I want to make mention of it to developers so that I can continue to have a positive ROI and justify the purchases.

Wifi Sync has worked flawless for me, and so the thought of losing it really is a big deal, and certainly for my personal uses deflates the value of the product by having it missing. I do understand and try to see your view point of supporting it. But right now there really is not another acceptible alternative. If we use Dropbox we are tying are most valueble data to a third party in the cloud who may or may not be sharing that information with others (PRISM comes to mind) and USB sync is still in Bete isn't it? and besides, a wired solution really isn't a fair replacement for a wireless one.

I again, do understand you have to make your own determinations of value, and if WiFi was such a support nightmare then I can see why you would need to consider its removal. But I personally haven't heard of any issues with all the people I know that use it. Would it be possible to add it back in as an "advanced" feature, with warnings, etc...?

------------------
The only two issues I've really had were:
* Mac Versions didn't have exact feature parity -
For example, The downloaded from agilebits didn't have the menubar access that the "same version" of 1Password from the app store did.

* The removal of Wifi Sync
Will 1Password 4 for Mac lose the ability to WiFi Sync with 1PAssword 3 for IOS? I really hope not.

Glad to help however I can.

There are dozens of questions being asked about Prism and other related NSA questions on our forum. Many of those have been answered quite thoroughly by our security expert. I won't claim to know nearly as much about the security side of things as I do about the programming/technical nature in how 1Password works, that's really my area of expertise, I leave the security stuff to the guy who knows security

You can read all of the NSA/PRISM related questions here: http://discussions.agilebits.com/discussion/13130/prism-and-cloud-syncing-security

We merge any separate questions into this one thread, so they should all show up there.

As for USB Sync, yes, it is beta, but for most users it works flawlessly. There are a few bugs and there are a few incidents of the app crashing on startup for users. But, in the grand scheme of things, the app works for a vast majority of users who try it. If you have trouble, we're happy to help. We also have a 30 day money back guarantee, you're welcome to try the app and see if it works, USB Sync is free, but it does require 1Password 3 for Mac and 1Password 4 for iOS.

I guess I see it differently though. If I I'm so concerned about security that I don't use a cloud service, then I don't see much difference in regard to wifi vs usb. With Wifi sync you had to:

* Open 1Password on your Mac
* Open 1Password on your iPhone or iPad
* Hope they seen each other

With USB Sync:

* Plug iPhone or iPad into computer
* Open 1Password USB Sync (don't open the Mac app or the iOS app, it's not needed)
* Click Sync (or turn on automatic sync)

The steps are effectively the same, in fact, USB Sync could be one less. I'm not sure about everyone here but I carry USB Cables with me with my laptop anyway for charging purposes, it's no big deal for me to use it to sync. And arguably, I probably have more data in 1Password and add new data more quickly than a very big chunk of our users, I test logins for users who are having trouble, and I have no real issues with using USB Sync. It's no more difficult than wifi syncing was, and in fact I can sync my iPhone anywhere now, even at Starbucks because it doesn't require both devices have access to the Starbucks wifi.

There are pros and cons either way, but I think USB Sync's only con, and the hangup most people have, is that it has to be plugged in. Everything else about it is better.

Regarding your other two concerns:

1) The menu bar in the Mac App Store version was mostly a toy anyway, wait until 1P4 for Mac, then you'll see where it is headed. The _reason_ for this though was simply that the Mac App Store version required Lion and above, while the website version had to work on Snow Leopard, and the menu bar API was only in Lion and above. It wasn't because we just didn't include it, it was a matter of which OS we were targeting.

2) Yes, Wifi sync is removed from 1Password 4 for Mac. 1Password 4 was a complete rewrite for both iOS and Mac, reusing the syncing code from 1Password 3 would've been a nightmare and it would've had to have been rewritten from scratch because the data file format changed completely in 1Password 4. That said, there is no reason you can't use 1Password 4 for Mac alongside 1Password 3 for Mac.

But, I think in the end you'll like USB Sync if you give it a try. It has potential to be so much better than it is already that I think in the long run users will forget that wifi existed simply because of the advantages we can include in USB Sync.

Hope that helps answer your questions, but please do send an email and mention my name if you'd like to continue this discussion to our support email (signature link for more details) and I'll be happy to discuss further. I just can't promise I'll respond here (not our forum, too many places to check in at, etc).

unplugme71 · Aug 9, 2013

AGKyle said:
WebDav was something we tried in the past. WebDav however is not like a typical network connection. Basically every single file is a new transaction. Think like a webpage downloading, it opens multiple network connections, one for each file until a limit is reached.

1Password's most widespread data file (AgileKeychain) has a new file for every single data item in your keychain. This meant that syncing was slow due to the nature of the data file.

Also, checking for new updates to items was also difficult because we had to download every file.

Our new data format is much smaller (file number wise) so webdav may be possible in the future. No promises but I'll definitely mention it to the developers.

The apps that you claim do work with WebDav, likely didn't have the sheer number of files we did. Thus, they worked fine.

Hope that explains in more detail why it didn't work in the past.

1Password 3 for iOS will not work with Dropbox. 1Password 4 for iOS, 1Password for Mac, Windows, Android and Windows Phone will all work fine with Dropbox.

The Sky is not falling

You can read about it here:

http://learn.agilebits.com/1Password4/iOS/Sync/USB/ios-usb-sync-faqs.html

It works well for most people. There are bugs though thus, still beta.

We aren't happy to let it break. The issue is that Apple does not allow us to upgrade applications we've removed for sale from the App Store.

Do be aware we are _not_ happy to let it break. But, at some point there is little we can do. We lobbied to have Dropbox continue to support it longer. Unfortunately, they're pulling down that API support on September 1st.

I made a comment at the top of my previous reply here. Please please read that.

USB Sync is an option:

http://learn.agilebits.com/1Password4/iOS/Sync/USB/ios-usb-sync-faqs.html

We've found that the number of people unhappy about wifi sync is pretty small, but very vocal

We hear them loud and clear. We just don't have a good solution for them outside of USB sync at the moment.

Stella does not work for AgileBits. We have users who are quite happy with the application, who tend to be very vocal and try to provide help and answers. Just like any other person on here Cut him/her a little slack, if you want to yell at someone, please yell at me as I am an employee with AgileBits. Your frustration is better directed at me.

We're working hard to do what we can to bring all platforms on a level playing field. What you're seeing are growing pains. We started as a small Mac only shop. Then grew to iOS, then it expanded. But our platform support has primarily been Mac because that's where our users have been. It's clear things are growing outside of that. We have major updates coming to Android and Windows that will be the first in a series of updates that will hopefully bring feature parity (as best as we can provide, iCloud for example is Mac/iOS only).

We reply to every user on our forum. Khad, our main guy behind the forums takes pride in making sure he replies to everyone. Will the answers always contain valuable information regarding timeframes and fixes? No. We don't do this not to frustrate you but to make sure we aren't promising on something we can't deliver. If we said "yea, it'll be available in the Spring of 2013" and that time slips by, you'd be upset. So, we don't provide time frames until we're ready to provide them. It's out of respect for you that we don't provide time frames. When we provide one it means we've got something in the oven and ready to ship soon. We don't want to mislead. Contrary to your views, we value our users and their opinions pretty greatly. We listen to them, we bring our users concerns and requests to the people who can change things and many of those changes came in 1Password 4. Sure, we made a few users upset along the way by removing things but we felt we had pretty good reason to do so. We never say never though, so if enough users tell us they want something we'll seriously look at it.

If you'd like to discuss your concerns in more detail please email us, link in my signature, and mention me. Someone will make sure it gets to me and I'll be happy to discuss your concerns and answer any questions you have. Perhaps you may even get into the Android beta if you want. But, that's your choice.

----------

Thanks for the feedback about usb sync!

We have only charged for 2 upgrades in our entire history.

* 1Password 3 for Mac
* 1Password 4 for iOS

All other versions were free upgrades to existing users. So, a user who purchased version 1 of 1Password for Mac got version 2 for free.

All users who purchased 1Password for iOS (the original version) got 1Password 2 and 3 for iOS for free.

1Password 4 for iOS was the second upgrade we ever charged for. Likewise, many other companies charge for every upgrade. We haven't.

As for what did 1Password 4 for iOS bring?

* Favorites
* Folders (something iOS didn't have but Mac/Win did)
* Browser with tabs (previous version had no tabs)
* Browser fills credit cards, identities, and usernames/passwords (previous version did logins only)
* iCloud Syncing (raving requests for this since iCloud was announced)
* Attachment viewing (no attachment support in previous versions)
* Automatic Clipboard Clearing (just like the Mac!
* Custom Sections and Fields within our existing Categories (you can now add your own data to our existing templates!)
* Many many more

1Password 4 for Mac brings all of the above and many more. I think most users will see it and realize why it has taken awhile to see the light of day. It's been a long hard road for our developers. Believe it or not, iOS was primarily written by 2 guys. The Mac version has primarily been written by 3. Both of these updates are ground up rewrites. From scratch. It was a brand new envisioning of 1Password.

We have much more planned too.

Well I do hope WebDAV is implemented. As of now, I just use 1Password on my phone as I don't have Dropbox sync setup. I don't trust a third party to host my very personal information, no matter how much security you or they claim. There's always someone somewhere within or outside the company that can simply access my files at Dropbox if they really wanted to.

arkmannj · Aug 9, 2013

AGKyle said:
2) Yes, Wifi sync is removed from 1Password 4 for Mac. 1Password 4 was a complete rewrite for both iOS and Mac, reusing the syncing code from 1Password 3 would've been a nightmare and it would've had to have been rewritten from scratch because the data file format changed completely in 1Password 4. That said, there is no reason you can't use 1Password 4 for Mac alongside 1Password 3 for Mac.

Thanks again for the reply,
One more question.

Can 1P3 and 1P4 share a data file? (locally: on IOS, on Mac; or Remotly: DropBox, etc...) so that if I am switching between apps, the data is still updated in both apps at the same time.

AGKyle said:
AGKyle

AGKyle · Aug 9, 2013

unplugme71 said:
Well I do hope WebDAV is implemented. As of now, I just use 1Password on my phone as I don't have Dropbox sync setup. I don't trust a third party to host my very personal information, no matter how much security you or they claim. There's always someone somewhere within or outside the company that can simply access my files at Dropbox if they really wanted to.

Understood. I'll make sure to mention this to our developers and CEO to see if we can take another look at it in the future. No promises but this is a feature I'd like to see myself. I have a Mac Mini colo'ed and it would be nice to be able to just host it myself.

I'm on your side here, same for the rest of the people in this thread. I hope I'm making that clear. My job is to take the reports from the users, and then take them to the developers.. (does this sound too office space to everyone?

arkmannj said:
Thanks again for the reply,
One more question.

Can 1P3 and 1P4 share a data file? (locally: on IOS, on Mac; or Remotly: DropBox, etc...) so that if I am switching between apps, the data is still updated in both apps at the same time.

My pleasure.

Yes, I'm doing it currently by way of Dropbox. I'm running 1Password 3 (on demand for testing) syncing to Dropbox, and then mainly using 1Password 4, which is also syncing to Dropbox. It'll read the same file that 1P3 is using.

Note that there are things that differ between them, i.e. custom fields will not work in 1P3, so keep that in mind. But they'll coexist for the time being. We have every intention of providing a new Dropbox data file format (CloudKeychain) which we use internally on 1Password 4, and in iCloud. I think the last discussion I had is that we'd like to still have an option to export as AgileKeychain for legacy reasons but the default would be CloudKeychain eventually. So, that will throw a monkey wrench in things at some point and most certainly will in future versions. This is all for the sake of moving forward, not to make things difficult for people.

psejcf · Aug 9, 2013

These are my opinions based on what I have seen first hand. Where relevant, I'll refer to some posts by AGKyle (from Agilebits) in this thread.

lilianeloirinha said:
...
Go take a look at the forums provided by AgileBits... while they do reply in most threads, most replies where users ask when they will fix or implement things go like this "we won't tell you when, just wait or find someone else".

Well, you know what AgileBits, if you are reading, I really hope you FAIL. I really do. I hope you fail so hard that you'll learn the lesson, because arrogant businesses need to learn the hard way.

I'm in full agreement in seeing Agilebits as an arrogant company (not all people who work there, but the primary founder and some people on the support forums are). To be frank, it used to be good when the company was smaller and was called Agile Web Solutions. Something changed over the years, and it seems to have become worse after the appearance of MAS and getting into multiple platforms.

mlac007 said:
According to Agile Bits website (once you click on the buy now button):

"Free Upgrade
Purchase 1Password for Mac or Windows today and receive a FREE upgrade to version 4 when it becomes available."

I know it's not easy for software product developers to reliably predict delivery dates (like AGKyle says in one of his posts), but the above statement is something Agilebits has said for the last two years - since about August/September 2011 or so (check the history yourself). Maybe 4 is just a number, but it seems like in 2011 they hadn't really thought about what 4 would be made of and how different it would be from 3. It has been on many discount sales with this statement for a long time now (not that discount sales are bad, but if you have them more than a few times you would piss off those who bought it at full price).

postman1 said:
1Password was the most valuable app to me too. But since they removed WiFi Sync it is pretty much useless now.
...
"Over the years, our team fell in love with the ease of Dropbox and stopped using Wi-Fi sync altogether. Since none of us used it, and in light of the features problematic nature for many of our users, we decided not to include Wi-Fi syncing when we rewrote 1Password 4 from the ground up."

Their response to me was "Wi-Fi Syncing is gone, and not coming back for 1Password. I understand that is not the answer you want, but it is the answer.
"

Got that everybody?

This is one of the arrogant ways some support staff answer there. Again, AGKyle mentioned in a post here that different WiFi configurations made it difficult (and maybe took a lot of their time and effort) to troubleshoot and provide solutions. I don't really know what's so difficult about making it work within a wireless LAN configuration, but I'll admit that even Dropbox's LAN sync fails many a times for no apparent reason and it starts syncing from the Dropbox servers. So there's either some merit to what AGKyle says or both Agile Bits and Dropbox could not really hire the best talent (the latter is a bit difficult to believe for Dropbox).

Yet, applications like Dropbox or SpiderOak still have WiFi sync (or LAN sync, as they call it) and did not remove it like Agilebits did.

Agilebits could have made it an optional thing saying that it's not very reliable and that people who wanted to try it could do so by explicitly selecting it from a hidden option or advanced option in preferences (default being disabled). Over a period of time, this could have also helped stabilize the solution for most (or all) configurations if Agilebits pushed forward. I understand that there is no easy solution that would make everyone (including Agilebits) happy, but to me it seems like Agilebits just gave up a little too soon.

When Agilebits staff members say that WiFi sync is gone forever, don't take their word for it. There is precedent that they will change their minds if enough people post/protest and make them see what's important for customers. When Agilebits released the MAS version of 1Password, it said that it would be MAS exclusive (similar to Pixelmator) and that there would never ever be a Mac version of it sold on their store again (the staff cited lame excuses that didn't make sense to many customers). Though they kept firm on this decision for sometime, they did have to change course later. So if it's really important, let them know and vote with your wallets. Also, don't stop with just posting on the Agilebits support site - discussions there can be made private (and sometimes are). Additionaly, post elsewhere on the web to keep the pressure up.

I'll finish by saying that AGKyle is one of the more helpful and friendlier people in Agilebits. We can only hope he can influence the others there to make things better for the users. I use 1Password frequently, and it's frustrating to see the decisions Agilebits has taken.

jonnysods · Aug 9, 2013

ValSalva said:
I don't think it can be with iOS sandboxing. You have to use 1Password's browser. It's not as convenient but AgileBits has no choice

The two most important basic apps on my Macs are 1Password and Dropbox.

Same here. I can't run my business without those too.

I appreciate the security of sand boxing, but it's very limiting when it comes to functionality.

AGKyle · Aug 9, 2013

psejcf said:
These are my opinions based on what I have seen first hand. Where relevant, I'll refer to some posts by AGKyle (from Agilebits) in this thread.

I'm in full agreement in seeing Agilebits as an arrogant company (not all people who work there, but the primary founder and some people on the support forums are). To be frank, it used to be good when the company was smaller and was called Agile Web Solutions. Something changed over the years, and it seems to have become worse after the appearance of MAS and getting into multiple platforms.

I think if you met all of us in person you'd have a different opinion here. That said, we should probably do better to not make that a requirement. Noted and will do my best to talk to the people that can change things here. This is just a tricky thing to do as properly portraying emotion and caring is rather tricky, especially with things like the negativity about losing wifi syncing surrounding you on all sides

Passionate users are great, but sometimes that passion can get in the way. We're the same way, so it goes both ways! I think it's human nature really.

This is why I asked for understanding in this thread. Try to see it from our sides and I think a lot of the negativity can be removed then we can get down to real discussion and that's the kind of thing that we can all agree will help us solve problems. This of course has to come from our side too.

psejcf said:
I know it's not easy for software product developers to reliably predict delivery dates (like AGKyle says in one of his posts), but the above statement is something Agilebits has said for the last two years - since about August/September 2011 or so (check the history yourself). Maybe 4 is just a number, but it seems like in 2011 they hadn't really thought about what 4 would be made of and how different it would be from 3. It has been on many discount sales with this statement for a long time now (not that discount sales are bad, but if you have them more than a few times you would piss off those who bought it at full price).

It's not due to lack of talent, it's strictly related to network configurations. There are just so many things that can get misconfigured or aren't setup properly by default in some routers. You would think this would be a solved problem by 2013, but sadly, it's not

If it worked as well as many users like yourself say it did, across all of our users, it never would've been removed. This is hard for a lot of users to see... a lot of our support takes place privately (we often need information that could be considered private and somewhat sensitive for troubleshooting) so many users never see the struggles we go through for supporting some of the features we've removed, such as wifi syncing.

I know it's hard to take people's word for it when you can't see for yourself, but as one of the people who struggled daily with users during the process of troubleshooting wifi syncing I do want to try to say that it was just awfully difficult.

It's just not reasonable for us to have to do a screen share, learn every router and try to configure it properly for every user. I did it with a few users and each instance took an hour+ of my time, I think we can all understand the math on this.

Keep in mind that doing the screen share option meant restarting routers and thus losing the connection and then having to re-share and test and repeat until things worked.

psejcf said:
This is one of the arrogant ways some support staff answer there. Again, AGKyle mentioned in a post here that different WiFi configurations made it difficult (and maybe took a lot of their time and effort) to troubleshoot and provide solutions. I don't really know what's so difficult about making it work within a wireless LAN configuration, but I'll admit that even Dropbox's LAN sync fails many a times for no apparent reason and it starts syncing from the Dropbox servers. So there's either some merit to what AGKyle says or both Agile Bits and Dropbox could not really hire the best talent (the latter is a bit difficult to believe for Dropbox). Yet, applications like Dropbox or SpiderOak still have WiFi sync (or LAN sync, as they call it) and did not remove it like Agilebits did.

Agilebits could have made it an optional thing saying that it's not very reliable and that people who wanted to try it could do so by explicitly selecting it from a hidden option or advanced option in preferences (default being disabled). Over a period of time, this could have also helped stabilize the solution for most (or all) configurations if Agilebits pushed forward. I understand that there is no easy solution that would make everyone (including Agilebits) happy, but to me it seems like Agilebits just gave up a little too soon.

Keep in mind that even half working LAN sync with applications like you mention is better than none. If it doesn't work, it can always fall back on downloading from their servers. We don't have that, when our wifi sync failed it failed completely and no syncing occurs.

I don't think it's entirely arrogance here, it can certainly come across that way. But sometimes we have to be a little more stern.

As for giving up a little too soon, that's a tough call I think. Again, one of those outside looking in situations, where on the inside it isn't so easy

To include wifi syncing in version 4 would've meant writing it all from scratch (for both iOS and Mac). The code from version 3 couldn't be easily moved to version 4. Plus, version 4 contains data that version 3 cannot handle or understand. It's just hard. As you point out below, version 4 has been a long time coming, can you imagine more delays because of including another difficult feature? At some point you have to ship or you never do.

A lot of developers will say "yea, no way we're ever rewriting this application, the time it took for us to get to this point is just too great and rewriting isn't feasible." We actually rewrote 1Password 4 from scratch on both Mac and iOS. The fact that we did it is a testament to how much we care about the application and our users. This isn't an excuse just a reality that not a lot of people are aware of.

psejcf said:
When Agilebits staff members say that WiFi sync is gone forever, don't take their word for it. There is precedent that they will change their minds if enough people post/protest and make them see what's important for customers. When Agilebits released the MAS version of 1Password, it said that it would be MAS exclusive (similar to Pixelmator) and that there would never ever be a Mac version of it sold on their store again (the staff cited lame excuses that didn't make sense to many customers). Though they kept firm on this decision for sometime, they did have to change course later. So if it's really important, let them know and vote with your wallets. Also, don't stop with just posting on the Agilebits support site - discussions there can be made private (and sometimes are). Additionaly, post elsewhere on the web to keep the pressure up.

Exactly true. We never say never. If something matters enough to our users we'll always consider it.

That said, I'm not sure wifi syncing is the answer here. Not sure USB Syncing is the answer either. But that's where clear and level heads can come together and find the right solution.

psejcf said:
I'll finish by saying that AGKyle is one of the more helpful and friendlier people in Agilebits. We can only hope he can influence the others there to make things better for the users. I use 1Password frequently, and it's frustrating to see the decisions Agilebits has taken.

Thanks for this. Sometimes this is a thankless job and I can appreciate constructive feedback when there's politeness involved

AGKyle · Aug 9, 2013

jonnysods said:
Same here. I can't run my business without those too.

I appreciate the security of sand boxing, but it's very limiting when it comes to functionality.

Sandboxing has potential to be great. But, in the infancy stages it makes things difficult. My hope is that after it matures it'll make things better for everyone. The problem of course is that it's a chicken and egg problem. At some point Apple had to flip the switch or it would never be used, and by flipping the switch (at least on the Mac) there are more people using it and those problems/limitations get discovered and hopefully fixed/improved.

On iOS, it's definitely a security thing, but as Apple has shown with new multi-tasking improvements in iOS 7 that it's all still in flux and has potential to change... here's for hoping iOS improves further in future versions.

There's a positive to everything if you look for them

arkmannj · Aug 9, 2013

So I went and pulled the trigger and purchased 1P4 for iOS. Can someone help me undertand how to accomplish a particular task that was quite easy in 1P3?

In 1P3 I would set my app to open with a quick unlock code, but then have specific items set to also require the master password. this worked quite well for my uses. both to quickly access "less sensitive" items, and sort of requiring an extra layer of security for "more secure" items. win-win.

but it now seems that when I enable the quick unlock in 1P4 those items will all open up. I either have to allow everything to open with a single passcode, be it the master code or the quick code.

this is a pretty big omission in 1P4 in my view, or am I just not understanding how to force specific items to require the master password again?

AGKyle said:
AGKyle

AGKyle · Aug 9, 2013

1Password 3 had effective two encryption keys:

SL3 = Your PIN (a 4 digit code)
SL5 = Your Master Password

Back when we designed this it was fine, but as technology has improved the 4 digit pin is just not secure enough. Many users were encrypting all of their data with just the 4 digit pin and not the master password. Thus, leaving their data not as secure as it should be. This we felt was our fault for designing it this way.

Also, it was awfully confusing because the iOS app could have also had a different master password than the Desktop app, thus making the user forget their master password on the iPhone because they never used it.

So, 1Password 4 only uses your master password. However, the "Quick Unlock" feature is useful for having quick access in a short period of time after you've unlocked with the master password. The quick unlock code doesn't involve any encryption, it merely provides a "lock" screen which requires the unlock. Typing in your pin wrong forces the next attempt to be a master password unlock.

If the app is quit for any reason (multi-tasking limit, iOS says it needs that memory, etc) then you're also forced to enter your master password in the next time.

Quick Unlock in version 4 is not the PIN unlock in version 3. It's a bit of a middle ground. You can see how to reconfigure the security settings to your liking here, from this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_YEJZdFv7Y

It takes some getting used to, but I feel a lot better knowing my data is always protected by my master password. I have the Quick Unlock in use for up to 2 minutes or so after I leave the app, that way if I need to go copy/paste I can quickly unlock but that's my particular use case for it.

arkmannj said:
So I went and pulled the trigger and purchased 1P4 for iOS. Can someone help me undertand how to accomplish a particular task that was quite easy in 1P3?

In 1P3 I would set my app to open with a quick unlock code, but then have specific items set to also require the master password. this worked quite well for my uses. both to quickly access "less sensitive" items, and sort of requiring an extra layer of security for "more secure" items. win-win.

but it now seems that when I enable the quick unlock in 1P4 those items will all open up. I either have to allow everything to open with a single passcode, be it the master code or the quick code.

this is a pretty big omission in 1P4 in my view, or am I just not understanding how to force specific items to require the master password again?

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