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Apple, Google and Others Set to Face Trial Over Anti-Poaching Agreements

kdarling

kdarling

macrumors P6
Jun 9, 2007
17,373
5,924
First university coding class = 47 years ago
Some posters are naively claiming that an employee can look for work on their own. In real life, that isn't true.

1) The Valley especially is a small place, and if someone good puts out feelers to other companies, it'll leak out.

2) It puts the employee at a disadvantage, because it's risky and he could lose his current job. With poaching, he'll already know he has another job waiting.

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Poaching itself has long been a tradition in this field. Steve Jobs himself poached from Xerox Parc and Palm and all sorts of places. For that matter, when he was kicked out of Apple, he poached a lot of top Apple employees and Apple sued him for doing so.

Just look at the recent headlines. Apple has poached top employees from Samsung, United Airlines and Burberry. These are top CFOs, engineers, etc, who would not have approached Apple on their own.

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However, Jobs hated it when others poached his employees. In this particular case that Judge Koh presides over, he supposedly went so far as to threaten Palm Inc with patent lawsuits if they did not agree to join in.

To which the Palm CEO emailed back to Jobs:

"Your proposal that we agree that neither company will hire the other's employees, regardless of the individual's desires, is not only wrong, it is likely illegal.[...]

Palm doesn't target other companies-we look for the best people we can find. l'd hope the same could be said about Apple's practices.

However, during the last year or so, as Apple geared up to compete with Palm in the phone space, Apple hired at least 2% of Palm's workforce. To put it in perspective, had Palm done the same, we'd have hired 300 folks from Apple. Instead, to my knowledge, we've hired just three."

- Ed Colligan Palm CEO
Click to expand...

Notice that he thought Jobs' proposal was that "neither company will hire the other's employees, regardless of the individual's desires". If true, that notches things up a level.
 
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jlc1978

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,479
4,266
Pyrrhic Victory said:
This is Exhibit A for frivolous lawsuits. Who exactly is being damaged here, employees of the companies who were denied the chance to be poached? Do these people have no idea how hard it is to get a job anywhere, let alone at an elite tech company? This is the last thing anybody working at those places should be complaining about. There are plenty of really smart, skilled, educated, and accomplished people who would kill to work there..
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Given the depth and breadth of proven tech talent in Silicon Valley companies often poach employees from each other. That there is talent available elsewhere is really irrelevant; what is relevant is did these agreements unlawfully limit the employability of employees of the companies in the suit? If so, then the companies should be found guilty of unfair labor practices and be forced to compensate employees as a result.

The companies have essentially, through agreements amongst themselves, limited third parties ability to compete in a marketplace.
 
Gasu E.

Gasu E.

macrumors 603
Mar 20, 2004
5,033
3,150
Not far from Boston, MA.
Pyrrhic Victory said:
This is Exhibit A for frivolous lawsuits. Who exactly is being damaged here, employees of the companies who were denied the chance to be poached? Do these people have no idea how hard it is to get a job anywhere, let alone at an elite tech company? This is the last thing anybody working at those places should be complaining about. There are plenty of really smart, skilled, educated, and accomplished people who would kill to work there.
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Wow. I don't know if you are a "free market" advocate for business. But if you are, you should be an advocate of a "free market" for labor as well. Hey, maybe you haven't noticed, but in the job market, the power balance between corporations and employees is not exactly even. Recruiting shifts the balance, just a tiny bit, in the employees favor. And without the need for labor unions.

You know, I think I read this same arguments before... out of the mouths of antebellum slave owners. Those darkies should have been happy-- they had regular meals, places to sleep and some one to look after them. Very ungrateful of them to want something more. :rolleyes:
 
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imwoblin

macrumors 6502
Jun 9, 2007
435
176
I experienced this when I was a manager for a Tier One technology company in the Valley in the late 90's. I couldn't understand the lack of opportunities between my company and their direct competitors until we found out they all signed contracts forbidding hiring of each others employees or ex employees (anti poaching). If you hired anyone, the penalty agreed to (between said companies) was $50,000 put into a slush fund. It took 2 trips to court to invalidate this and allow ex employees to earn a living.
 
the8thark

the8thark

macrumors 601
Apr 18, 2011
4,628
1,735
pirateyarrr said:
We'll see what your opinion is if you ever get a job that you wish to transition out of, and suddenly find that no other company in your field will give you an interview.

Try not to be so simplistic in your idiotic analyses.
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He was right. It happens in many industries. Either get over it or choose an industry that does not do this. And this is about poaching, not about applying for an advertised job.
 
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Poisonivy326

macrumors 6502
Nov 25, 2012
485
97
Apple's behemoth NDA's that all their employers must sign makes transferring out the hardest. Their NDA's have several levels and are more labyrinth than any other company's. Therefore, much harder to go to interviews and talk about what you accomplished at Apple if you're not allowed to even talk about your project with anyone else outside your team.
 
mtbdudex

mtbdudex

macrumors 68030
Aug 28, 2007
2,679
4,176
SE Michigan
Poisonivy326 said:
Apple's behemoth NDA's that all their employers must sign makes transferring out the hardest. Their NDA's have several levels and are more labyrinth than any other company's. Therefore, much harder to go to interviews and talk about what you accomplished at Apple if you're not allowed to even talk about your project with anyone else outside your team.
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Has anyone posted their NDA online?
I'm curious it's content, like "your 1st born child shall not work for XXX company" :rolleyes: or ?
 
D.T.

D.T.

macrumors G4
Sep 15, 2011
11,050
12,460
Vilano Beach, FL
mtbdudex said:
Has anyone posted their NDA online?
I'm curious it's content, like "your 1st born child shall not work for XXX company" :rolleyes: or ?
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What you described is more of a non-Compete, he was suggesting that the non-Disclosure (NDA), prevents you from discussing your specific accomplishments … but really, that’s a non-issue :D You can easily discuss things in abstract without disclosing specific product details.

FWIW, non-Competes are hard to enforce too, I had one with the company that acquired my Biz #2, and most of my legal resources said it’s tough to enforce, and certainly nothing longer than 6 months. There’s a gray area between disclosure of trade secrets and going to work for a company in direct competition, so there is some overlap in the two types of agreements.
 
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Gasu E.

Gasu E.

macrumors 603
Mar 20, 2004
5,033
3,150
Not far from Boston, MA.
Pyrrhic Victory said:
Nobody is entitled to unsolicited job offers just because they're qualified for the job. If they were, I would have a far better job than most of the people who post on this forum.
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What the heck are you talking about? Either you are not expressing yourself well, or your philosophy is a throwback to pre-WWII fascism. I hope it is the former.
 
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carlgo

macrumors 68000
Dec 29, 2006
1,806
17
Monterey CA
Mr. Gates said:
mark my words, Apple will get off scott free.
This judge has been in apples pocket for a long time.
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Judges aren't required to even out verdicts. Otherwise simply take turns finding the usual players in these suits guilty. There wouldn't even be the need for a judge.

Fanbois think the judge is like them, all aflutter about the offerings of giant corporations. She isn't, could care less. All she sees are the legal documents and listens to the attorneys prattle on and on in language that attempts to deceive her and win her to their cause.

She probably hates both sides.

In the world of rationality and greatest probability, the least likely scenario is that Apple sends couriers to deliver cash to Koh.
 
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york2600

Cancelled
Jul 24, 2002
274
288
Portland, OR
Glad to see this getting shot down. I had anti-competition provisions in my first employment contract at an Oregon tech company that I'd love to see Oregon go after. Basically along the lines of: 18 months after working for us you can't work for ANY company that could be considered competition to us. They tried to go after a friend of mine that left for a completely unrelated company. It's a scam reduce to the mobility of employees and it drives down wages.
 
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Internaut

macrumors 65816
Dec 11, 2009
1,020
1,875
All over the place but mostly Somewhere in England
Welcome to the wonderful world of America

Your employees might not have unions, but they do have lawyers. Hold that thought.

I'm not sure if the anti poaching agreement is illegal though (I guess it might be, if the law deems contracts that restrict employee movement as unenforceable).
 
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ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,572
1,684
Redondo Beach, California
-LikesMac- said:
What law prevents this?
Click to expand...

This is a CIVIL suit brought by employees not by a prosecutor.

Actually I think there are many laws going back to the Sherman antitrust act.

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Poisonivy326 said:
Apple's behemoth NDA's that all their employers must sign makes transferring out the hardest. Their NDA's have several levels and are more labyrinth than any other company's. Therefore, much harder to go to interviews and talk about what you accomplished at Apple if you're not allowed to even talk about your project with anyone else outside your team.
Click to expand...

We have the same problem in the defense industry where our work is classified. But everyone can talk around it. We talk about a VERY narrow part we did like "I designed a self-diagnosic system for a DC power distribution system." But I do NOT say anything about the name of the spacecraft or the payload. Or you go way-general and talk about "overhead IR sensors"

You can do the same at Apple Just avoid specifics of a product
 
O

old-wiz

macrumors G3
Mar 26, 2008
8,331
228
West Suburban Boston Ma
york2600 said:
Glad to see this getting shot down. I had anti-competition provisions in my first employment contract at an Oregon tech company that I'd love to see Oregon go after. Basically along the lines of: 18 months after working for us you can't work for ANY company that could be considered competition to us. They tried to go after a friend of mine that left for a completely unrelated company. It's a scam reduce to the mobility of employees and it drives down wages.
Click to expand...

I remember an employment agreement back in the early 1990s, where you agreed not to work for any company that they did business with. A literal reading of it said you could not even work as a janitor for the company that cleaned the offices at night. We all hated the agreement and thought it was unfair, but didn't have any choice.
 
V

vasir

macrumors newbie
Jun 19, 2011
10
0
Internaut said:
Your employees might not have unions, but they do have lawyers. Hold that thought.

I'm not sure if the anti poaching agreement is illegal though (I guess it might be, if the law deems contracts that restrict employee movement as unenforceable).
Click to expand...

I think your argument has some corners to cover. First lawyers are not free, granted you can find cheap one that uses his garage as office. Secondly most engineers in that field are very specialized and their work outside that environment is generally not needed.
Why?

I am one of them and wondered for 1 year why Apple/other companies did not even give me a phone interview and I can tell you I know their PC hardware inside out. I have been trying to find job but can't tell others in interview what I did in my past which is basically shooting myself in the foot. So yes that kind of control in the job market should be illegal.
 
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carlgo

macrumors 68000
Dec 29, 2006
1,806
17
Monterey CA
In the US sports teams have free agency which in effect lets players move to other teams, but restricts the poaching of players still under contract and has rules about the timing of such contacts.

Of course players are going to give their new team the inside scoop of their old one. You can't expect otherwise. But by having these rules the old team will know what the new team is being told, and when, and can plan accordingly. They also have the chance to re-sign the employee.

This scheme protects both sides and promotes stability and an even field.
 
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vasir

macrumors newbie
Jun 19, 2011
10
0
carlgo said:
In the US sports teams have free agency which in effect lets players move to other teams, but restricts the poaching of players still under contract and has rules about the timing of such contacts.

Of course players are going to give their new team the inside scoop of their old one. You can't expect otherwise. But by having these rules the old team will know what the new team is being told, and when, and can plan accordingly. They also have the chance to re-sign the employee.

This scheme protects both sides and promotes stability and an even field.
Click to expand...

This is not football game, there are no "teams" out there.
You forget that most companies now days have cross IP agreements and generally know what the other guy is up to via illegal or legal means. This issue is about the small guy " i.e engineer" that can't find a job outside because he has been trained for many years to do things that are worthless outside that field. These companies make it almost impossible for him to land another job in other "similar companies" unless he starts from scratch in some other field.

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ChrisA said:
This is a CIVIL suit brought by employees not by a prosecutor.

Actually I think there are many laws going back to the Sherman antitrust act.

----------



We have the same problem in the defense industry where our work is classified. But everyone can talk around it. We talk about a VERY narrow part we did like "I designed a self-diagnosic system for a DC power distribution system." But I do NOT say anything about the name of the spacecraft or the payload. Or you go way-general and talk about "overhead IR sensors"

You can do the same at Apple Just avoid specifics of a product
Click to expand...

Chris,

You are correct but in hardware industry you really can't pull the same. I can tell you that from experience.
 
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