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balamw

Moderator emeritus
Aug 16, 2005
19,366
979
New England
Does Airplay work with any projector in a conference room though? And besides i was mainly speaking about using it as a desktop with a bigger monitor and yes you can simply Remote desktop consistently WITH mouse support something you cant do on the iPad at all
I'd love to hear they've finally figured all of that out, because it simply doesn't seem to work that reliably for the Lenovo ultrabooks we standardized on at work. (Windows 8/8.1).

The same was true at my last employer. We always seemed to struggle connecting the Windows boxes to the projectors. They would not come up at full resolution etc... This was Windows 7.

Since we had many Mac/iPad users at the company, an AppleTV was installed in each conference room. Keynote via AirPlay worked every time.
USB drivers are managed natively by Windows now for thousands of the most used devices (kb, mice, printers, etc). Just plug in and it automatically handles the drivers. Far more than the iPad for sure.
USB just isn't a feature of the iPad (besides the most generic camera/storage devices), and it's still a far cry of true full USB support for RT. You may not get all the advanced features of some of these devices that are only available with the desktop provided drivers. I know that's the case with the Logitech mouse I just bought for my Windows 7 desktop. It "works" without the drivers as a basic mouse, but works better with Logitech's drivers.
If Windows had all the apps iPad has, it would be the best tablet OS currently.
The bit I don't get, and would really like to, is why Surface RT is better than Surface Pro. In terms of productivity, Surface Pro is better than RT. The ARM version doesn't have the access to the huge library of desktop apps, the Wacom digitizer, ... The only advantage of RT is that the ARM version is slightly lighter.
Most every device that I threw at the tablet works with the drivers Microsoft developed.
That's great, but see above. That doesn't mean they work equivalently to how they work on Windows Desktop. Or even Linux or Mac OS.
However, for people like me, it is not relevant.
And that's the same calculus many others make with the iPad. It's good enough for me so "better" is completely irrelevant.

B
 

sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,271
12,994
where hip is spoken
The bit I don't get, and would really like to, is why Surface RT is better than Surface Pro. In terms of productivity, Surface Pro is better than RT. The ARM version doesn't have the access to the huge library of desktop apps, the Wacom digitizer, ... The only advantage of RT is that the ARM version is slightly lighter.
RT is thinner, longer battery, doesn't have a fan, closed to malware, and currently 1/3-1/4 of the price of a Pro. I'm the opposite, I totally get where the RT fits in but not the Pro. Why spend $1000 (Pro+keyboard cover) for what is essentially a netbook? Usually when I say that someone responds with "but the Macbook Air 10" costs that much too"... and my response to that, is the Macbook Air 10" is a netbook too. An expensive netbook, but still a netbook.

I've owned a few Asus 10" netbooks in the past. Very nice little machines. But I wouldn't want to do any serious image editing work on it.

If these new wave of full Win8 tablets can address the shortcomings typical of full Win8 tablets, THEN I can see RT going away.
 

Krazy Bill

macrumors 68030
Dec 21, 2011
2,985
3
How is the Surface RT crap as far as functionality goes?

You can connect to any projector via hdmi
You can use any usb device compatible with windows
You have multiple user accounts
Attach any keyboard/mouse of your choice or use the excellent type cover
Full Microsoft Office and Outlook included.

If it wasnt for apps, the surface RT would have the ipad beat period and the apps are coming

It's crap compared to the "Pro" version. Again, I feel if you're going to vest in the Windows environment, why do it half-assed?
 

laserfox

macrumors 6502
Jan 21, 2008
296
0
new york
It's crap compared to the "Pro" version. Again, I feel if you're going to vest in the Windows environment, why do it half-assed?

I have the Dell Venue 8 Pro right now and have installed ZERO x86 apps. They really dont matter for the casual tablet user. The Windows Store and Internet Explorer handles most of my use cases excellently.I would have been easily happy if this ran Windows RT and kept pen support...
 

OhHaiThere

macrumors regular
Sep 8, 2011
143
0
USA
I'm not a fan of RT... check out the Dell Venue 8 Pro. Can be had for $200... which is insane for everything it can do. Performance is about on par with the Surface 2 and in a smaller package. You can use a USB hub to basically turn it into a laptop dock. See this video to see what I mean (not an 8 Pro review, just one example of what you can do)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPPY4m8iY0k
 

SlCKB0Y

macrumors 68040
Feb 25, 2012
3,426
555
Sydney, Australia
Why spend $1000 (Pro+keyboard cover) for what is essentially a netbook? Usually when I say that someone responds with "but the Macbook Air 10" costs that much too"... and my response to that, is the Macbook Air 10" is a netbook too. An expensive netbook, but still a netbook.

I've owned a few Asus 10" netbooks in the past. Very nice little machines. But I wouldn't want to do any serious image editing work on it.

The MBA and the Surface Pro are most certainly not netbooks, unless you have an extremely odd definition of what a netbook is. :rolleyes:
 

sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,271
12,994
where hip is spoken
The MBA and the Surface Pro are most certainly not netbooks, unless you have an extremely odd definition of what a netbook is. :rolleyes:
10" screen... check.
No optical drive... check.
clamshell design... check. (the Surface Pro is never shown in ads without the keyboard cover...)
reduced number of connectivity ports... check.

Just because they cost $1000 instead of $300 doesn't make them any less of a netbook. Call them an "ultrabook" if it helps make you feel better about spending a grand, but a rose by any other name....
 

spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,374
5,222
10" screen... check.
No optical drive... check.
clamshell design... check. (the Surface Pro is never shown in ads without the keyboard cover...)
reduced number of connectivity ports... check.

Just because they cost $1000 instead of $300 doesn't make them any less of a netbook. Call them an "ultrabook" if it helps make you feel better about spending a grand, but a rose by any other name....

Nah. Netbooks have traditionally been defined as smaller, cheaper and much less capable laptops, in exchange for computing power. An ultrabook, on the other hand, is a laptop which is very thin, maybe smaller, but has enough power to keep up with other laptops and even mid range desktops. The surface Pro certainly fits the ultrabook definition IMO, but is a far cry from a netbook. I think what you are missing is that you can connect a surface Pro to a monitor, keyboard and mouse and have a COMPLETE desktop experience, including doing things like running Photoshop, desktop games, etc etc. Netbooks were designed more as "net" books, ie: something to pretty much just get on the internet with and not much else.

On top of all that the Surface Pro has the distinct advantage of being able to function as a tablet, which a traditional ultrabook like the MacBook Air does not. While the Surface Pro should be more compared to ultrabooks, it is also a tablet.
 

sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,271
12,994
where hip is spoken
Nah. Netbooks have traditionally been defined as smaller, cheaper and much less capable laptops, in exchange for computing power. An ultrabook, on the other hand, is a laptop which is very thin, maybe smaller, but has enough power to keep up with other laptops and even mid range desktops. The surface Pro certainly fits the ultrabook definition IMO, but is a far cry from a netbook. I think what you are missing is that you can connect a surface Pro to a monitor, keyboard and mouse and have a COMPLETE desktop experience, including doing things like running Photoshop, desktop games, etc etc. Netbooks were designed more as "net" books, ie: something to pretty much just get on the internet with and not much else.

On top of all that the Surface Pro has the distinct advantage of being able to function as a tablet, which a traditional ultrabook like the MacBook Air does not. While the Surface Pro should be more compared to ultrabooks, it is also a tablet.
Thank you for that considered response. The more that I use my Surface RT, and in particular, the things that it does that no other tablet does (or does as easily), the more I appreciate the format factor for serious work. In fact, what you describe as possible with the Pro is how I use my RT.

My previous work assignment was in a very Apple-centric environment so that adjusted my thinking in that direction (Macbook Airs in use were treated very much like netbooks). My new assignment is heavily Windows-centric and so I'm going back to that mindset... and I can see where the Pro would be of great value as much of my responsibilities require software that has no RT version.

I had hopes of using VMWare Horizon View client on RT (which does exist) but it doesn't support PCoIP protocol. :(
 

balamw

Moderator emeritus
Aug 16, 2005
19,366
979
New England
RT is thinner, longer battery, doesn't have a fan, closed to malware, and currently 1/3-1/4 of the price of a Pro.
iPad is thinner, longer battery life, doesn't have a fan and is closed to malware too, currently 1/2 the price of a pro.
I can see where the Pro would be of great value as much of my responsibilities require software that has no RT version.
That's exactly why I don't "get" RT, much as I would like to. I think Windows on ARM is intriguing, but the Dell Venue Pro 8 seems like a better deal than the Surface RT.

It's really what we usually refer to as a Netbook (lightweight Atom based Intel box), even if you don't usually run Desktop applications on it you can.

IMO, Chromebooks are the ARM based descendants of Netbooks.

B
 
Last edited:

hafr

macrumors 68030
Sep 21, 2011
2,743
9
10" screen... check.
No optical drive... check.
clamshell design... check. (the Surface Pro is never shown in ads without the keyboard cover...)
reduced number of connectivity ports... check.

Just because they cost $1000 instead of $300 doesn't make them any less of a netbook. Call them an "ultrabook" if it helps make you feel better about spending a grand, but a rose by any other name....
So either you're saying that the 13" rMBP is a netbook, or that the only thing differentiating a netbook from a laptop is that one has an 11" screen and the other a 13" screen. Which one is it?
 

spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,374
5,222
Thank you for that considered response. The more that I use my Surface RT, and in particular, the things that it does that no other tablet does (or does as easily), the more I appreciate the format factor for serious work. In fact, what you describe as possible with the Pro is how I use my RT.

My previous work assignment was in a very Apple-centric environment so that adjusted my thinking in that direction (Macbook Airs in use were treated very much like netbooks). My new assignment is heavily Windows-centric and so I'm going back to that mindset... and I can see where the Pro would be of great value as much of my responsibilities require software that has no RT version.

I had hopes of using VMWare Horizon View client on RT (which does exist) but it doesn't support PCoIP protocol. :(

Yeah don't get me wrong, as much as I think RT is useless I still think it is MUCH more useful than an ipad.

Now to harp on the point I always do, don't blind yourself to a 3rd middle option, one with the best of both worlds. The atom powered tablets have FULL windows on them, but have similar hardware specs to the RT units, they are a win-win item with really none of the downfalls of either the surface or the surface pro IMO.

----------

IMO, Chromebooks are the ARM based descendants of Netbooks.

Exactly. Or if Apple ever put iOS on a laptop that would be a netbook. Come to think of it I think the ipad is much more deserving of being a modern day "netbook" than anything else.
 

balamw

Moderator emeritus
Aug 16, 2005
19,366
979
New England
The atom powered tablets have FULL windows on them, but have similar hardware specs to the RT units, they are a win-win item with really none of the downfalls of either the surface or the surface pro IMO.

If there was an Atom (or even i3) based Windows tablet with the Wacom digitizer the Surface Pro has, I'd personally be all over it. I was at the Microsoft Store the other day, and can't justify an SP2, or even an SP1 at $699, but I could easily go for a $499-$599 device between the Surface 2 and the Surface Pro 2.

B
 

Phil A.

Moderator emeritus
Apr 2, 2006
5,799
3,094
Shropshire, UK
If there was an Atom (or even i3) based Windows tablet with the Wacom digitizer the Surface Pro has, I'd personally be all over it. I was at the Microsoft Store the other day, and can't justify an SP2, or even an SP1 at $699, but I could easily go for a $499-$599 device between the Surface 2 and the Surface Pro 2.

B

I had an atom based Windows 8 machine with a Wacom Digitiser and removable keyboard made by Samsung and it was painfully slow (don't know what the new atom quad cores are like though).

Also, 2GB RAM for Windows 8 is barely enough IMO. What I like about the Surface Pro is that it genuinely does have enough power to do pretty much anything I want to do with Windows
 

spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,374
5,222
If there was an Atom (or even i3) based Windows tablet with the Wacom digitizer the Surface Pro has, I'd personally be all over it. I was at the Microsoft Store the other day, and can't justify an SP2, or even an SP1 at $699, but I could easily go for a $499-$599 device between the Surface 2 and the Surface Pro 2.

B

My thinkpad tablet 2, which came out about a year ago has a Wacom digitizer. The Samsung tablet from a year ago also has a Wacom.

----------

I had an atom based Windows 8 machine with a Wacom Digitiser and removable keyboard made by Samsung and it was painfully slow (don't know what the new atom quad cores are like though).

Also, 2GB RAM for Windows 8 is barely enough IMO. What I like about the Surface Pro is that it genuinely does have enough power to do pretty much anything I want to do with Windows

My atom tablet isn't slow at all, and the new ones are supposed to be pretty awesome. My atom tablet has taken everything windows I've thrown at it and behaved like a champ. I can run photoshop on it, have 3 IE11 browsers open each with 12+ tabs, etc etc. I can only imagine how nice the new Baytrail atoms will be. The only real comparison is the Asus T100 which has baytrail, there are some incredible reviews of it, things like running full blown Crysis on them which is a very highly intensive desktop game. They can basically do anything a desktop can within the memory limitations, ie large photoshop files, etc.

The thing is, you can't do this on any other tablet either until you get to the surface pro, which is in another category IMO. But that's the awesome thing, if you need 8gb of RAM you can get that in the surface Pro if you want to pay for it.
 

OhHaiThere

macrumors regular
Sep 8, 2011
143
0
USA
My thinkpad tablet 2, which came out about a year ago has a Wacom digitizer. The Samsung tablet from a year ago also has a Wacom.

----------



My atom tablet isn't slow at all, and the new ones are supposed to be pretty awesome. My atom tablet has taken everything windows I've thrown at it and behaved like a champ. I can run photoshop on it, have 3 IE11 browsers open each with 12+ tabs, etc etc. I can only imagine how nice the new Baytrail atoms will be. The only real comparison is the Asus T100 which has baytrail, there are some incredible reviews of it, things like running full blown Crysis on them which is a very highly intensive desktop game. They can basically do anything a desktop can within the memory limitations, ie large photoshop files, etc.

The thing is, you can't do this on any other tablet either until you get to the surface pro, which is in another category IMO. But that's the awesome thing, if you need 8gb of RAM you can get that in the surface Pro if you want to pay for it.

The aforementioned Dell Venue 8 Pro is running Bay Trail. It's about on par with the Surface 2 in terms of processing, has a long life of ~8-10 hours depending on what you're doing and all the rest of the specs are about on par with ARM based tablets of similar caliber. The day for when x86 competes directly with ARM is now! Certainly this tablet has had my attention since I discovered it. Was waiting for Nexus 10 2nd gen, but reconsidering.
 

spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,374
5,222
The aforementioned Dell Venue 8 Pro is running Bay Trail. It's about on par with the Surface 2 in terms of processing, has a long life of ~8-10 hours depending on what you're doing and all the rest of the specs are about on par with ARM based tablets of similar caliber. The day for when x86 competes directly with ARM is now! Certainly this tablet has had my attention since I discovered it. Was waiting for Nexus 10 2nd gen, but reconsidering.

It's an incredible little tablet, I owned it for a bit. In the end 8" was just too small for me, but that's just a reflection of how I use my tablet, the ipad mini is way too small for me as well.

It seems like MS went with ARM because the original single core Atom on the old netbooks was so pitiful that MS had no choice. The dual core Clovertrail was great IMO and MS should have went with it, but they may have already had deals in place. Now with the quad core Baytrail Atom being so awesome MS just has no excuse to keep making these major mistakes like supporting ARM and perpetuating crap like RT.

Just imagine if the surface non-pro was released with baytrail, have full windows desktop support and have the very nice surface hardware wrapped around it.
 

westrock2000

macrumors 6502a
Oct 18, 2013
524
22
For $180 WITH the keyboard, I thought it was a pretty good deal :)

surface_rt_black_friday.jpg
 

spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,374
5,222
Bzzt. Nice try. That is NOT a pretty good deal....






... it is an absolutely SMOKING deal! :D Congratulations!

It IS an even better deal if you factor in the Office license IMO. I still wouldn't pay $179 for it, but I won't deny it's a good deal if you are a poor student and have no other choice and want Office.
 

OhHaiThere

macrumors regular
Sep 8, 2011
143
0
USA
It's an incredible little tablet, I owned it for a bit. In the end 8" was just too small for me, but that's just a reflection of how I use my tablet, the ipad mini is way too small for me as well.

It seems like MS went with ARM because the original single core Atom on the old netbooks was so pitiful that MS had no choice. The dual core Clovertrail was great IMO and MS should have went with it, but they may have already had deals in place. Now with the quad core Baytrail Atom being so awesome MS just has no excuse to keep making these major mistakes like supporting ARM and perpetuating crap like RT.

Just imagine if the surface non-pro was released with baytrail, have full windows desktop support and have the very nice surface hardware wrapped around it.

Well, keep in mind that Microsoft builds reference devices... they're a software company, they make their money from selling Windows, Office, etc. not selling their Surface & Surface Pro's.

Usually when these companies get into the hardware game, it's to improve the current offerings, to set some minimum standard for vendors to compete with and establish price points, etc.

So although the Surface 2 with Bay Trail would be awesome it won't happen. I feel like x86 is the future for MS tablets though. RT is kind of useless when you can do the same as as ARM, similar price points, weight, battery life, etc. Why have a compromised system? Anyone looking for a tablet and not a computer can use Android or iOS tablets.
 

spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,374
5,222
Well, keep in mind that Microsoft builds reference devices... they're a software company, they make their money from selling Windows, Office, etc. not selling their Surface & Surface Pro's.

Usually when these companies get into the hardware game, it's to improve the current offerings, to set some minimum standard for vendors to compete with and establish price points, etc.

So although the Surface 2 with Bay Trail would be awesome it won't happen. I feel like x86 is the future for MS tablets though. RT is kind of useless when you can do the same as as ARM, similar price points, weight, battery life, etc. Why have a compromised system? Anyone looking for a tablet and not a computer can use Android or iOS tablets.

Don't forget MS current goal is to transform itself into a Devices and Services company, so they are indeed definitely looking to make money off their hardware in the same fashion as Apple does. That's why it's baffling that they took a $900 million loss on RT but yet continue to force it, and that they put so much effort behind such a niche product like the Surface Pro. I do see the purpose of the surface Pro, but I just think they would have sold a LOT more Atom surfaces than either RT or Pro.
 
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