Non-4K display for gaming on nMP?

deconstruct60 said:

Not really. There are 6 TB ports. Who cares if just one of them are tagged with a TB v1 chain of devices? You'd still have 2-5x as many TB v2 ports than any other system out right now.

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Personally, I'd rather have two of the Monoprice displays for less than the cost of one ATD whose ports are a lower spec than what the nMP offers.

I'm sure there are USB 2.0 devices. ( keyboard , mouse , dongle software/locks , etc. etc.) that most folks can use to populate those USB 2.0 sockets. Segregating USB 3.0 and USB 2.0 devices onto different USB controllers is a good thing; not a bad one. The older docking station/display can be put to use doing exactly that.

Sure folks with 5-6 USB 3.0 devices would need a better docking station display, but how big of a market is that? Folks crying the blues about not enough USB ports on Macs typically have gobs of legacy stuff they want directly attached; not the bleeding edge stuff.

It the docking station/display would have more long term viability if it had 3 USB 3.0 , FW 800 , Ethernet ports but the current on isn't that big of a deal on a Mac Pro.

On a 1 port MBA there is a difference. Those laptop systems with just one (maybe two) TB ports. Right now though, all TB v2 capable Mac systems have at least 2 (which reduces daisy chain pressure). The Mac Pro is in another whole different zip code from the rest of the line up.

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So you're basically saying that having 3x USB2.0 and 1xTB1 daisy chain port built in to the ATD is worth $540? Because that's the price difference and advantage the ATD has over the non-Thunderbolt display I linked above.

Even the Sonnet TB docks are (going to be) cheaper than that AND provide even more functionality. Not only that, you end up decoupling the dock from the display. That's a win.

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/thunderbolt/index.html

For the money, the ATD just isn't the value that it used to be and, based on what's available or will be available soon, it is a downgrade.

Derpage said:

No angst here. Just amused and slightly bewildered. Most people don't go buying front end loaders when they need a shovel for their yard. If your neighbor (virtual or real) were to do so, if you didn't chuckle and think "What a nut." more power to you I guess.

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I would say this is closer to a Rolex vs Timex discussion.. so as long as he's not buying the Rolex with food stamps, why should I care?

lesferdinand said:

Yes, exactly, I'd connect the Apple keyboard, Wacom tablet and wired mouse to the display.

Also, I'm using external hard drives primarily for back-up purposes. Given that the I/O speeds of the disks are the bottleneck there, does it really matter all that much if it's TB1 vs TB2? (I'm assuming SSD's will be cost prohibitive for back-up purposes for the foreseeable future)

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USB2.0, not the HDD, is the bottleneck. Theoretical limit to USB2.0 is around 60MB/s, my 4TB USB3 HDD does over 100MB/sec consistently.

The only things I have plugged in to my ATD are the keyboard, mouse and Lightning sync cable for my iPad. All the USB ports on the display are now used up.

I have a USB3 hub for external storage. The ATD makes a nice dock for my rMBP, but "docking" an nMP? Save the money you'd spend on the ATD and use it on hardware that will have a longer useful life, IMO.

lesferdinand said:

I'm thinking of getting the current Thunderbolt display in the interim, figuring that I'll be adding a 4K display to it in the next year or two for photo/video editing. I'd keep the non-4K display around for gaming purposes, assuming that even the D700's would struggle to maintain a 60FPS framerate at 4K resolution and a 'native' 2560x1440 screen would look better than a non-native resolution on a 4K display (and the latter may also introduce scaling lag). Does this reasoning make sense?

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Yes, it makes perfect sense. I think this first gen 4K stuff should be avoided except for those who absolutely need it. Like a lot of first gen stuff, it's overly expensive, not very well implemented, and kind of thrown together.

That being said, I personally would never get an ACD. They are more expensive than similar quality monitors, have far less connection options, and far less ergonomic adjustments.

lesferdinand said:

I was thinking of the potential future use-case of attaching TB1 hard drive enclosures to the ATP's Thunderbolt port. There's no real need to do so, as the nMP has plenty of TB2 ports. But even if I'd want to, performance wise it wouldn't make much of a difference, right, as the HDD read/write speed wouldn't exhaust TB1's bandwidth.

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That's correct, unless you went with something like an SSD RAID. It would take a lot of HDDs to saturate TB1.

lesferdinand said:

Thanks! Why am I pissing people off though?

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Also, I note a certain lack of in the sense of humor department.

Yahooligan said:

So you're basically saying that having 3x USB2.0 and 1xTB1 daisy chain port built in to the ATD is worth $540?

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No. I didn't say anything about your mono price monitors. I was addressing your comment as to why current ATD were somehow not particularly useful anymore for a nMP. You are choosing to move to goalpost into how much cheaper it is.

Even the Sonnet TB docks are (going to be) cheaper than that AND provide even more functionality. Not only that, you end up decoupling the dock from the display. That's a win.

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No it is a dual edge sword. Separate dock means separate power cord and additional TB cord. Price wise it is cheaper but there certainly folks who act is if the sky is going to fall if there 1-2 additional cord(s) on their desk. They may pay.

Like the other posters response the integrated webcam will have value to some. Again another set of cables.

Sure you can get a Sonnet dock with USB 3.0 but if fully populate it with USB 2.0 devices you are buying capability you are not using. If bought $400 of very high speed USB 3.0 devices, it is probably somewhat value not to hamper their system connect to the Mac Pro with legacy USB 2.0 chatter. Again if the Mac Pro only has USB 3.0 devices connected the internal USB 3.0 controller doesn't have to deal with legacy 2.0 chatter and throttling.

For the money, the ATD just isn't the value that it used to be and, based on what's available or will be available soon, it is a downgrade.

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If talking about ATD versus stripped down display + dock it hasn't been the same value it initially was for much longer than the Mac Pro change. This has little to nothing to do with the Mac Pro's ports matching. That is initially what you labeled as motivating "downgrade".

The TB display is over two years old. ( September 2011 ). The price has problem more so due to not other new stuff but just for being an unrefreshed product. It is overdue. 27" IPS monitors have changed alot in price since then.

Why Apple didn't roll out a new version on 2012 iMac redesign? Maybe because waiting for TB v2 controllers to actually go into volume production in 2014. Waiting for same set of discrete USB 3.0 controller drivers that the Mac Pro will use ( an update probably will move forward on USB 3.0). In part probably also waiting to see just what "new normal" will be for non 4K displays. My guess that it is a bit of all three.

For Mac Pro Apple probably for more so needs a 21.5" version that is much more affordable. I doubt Apple even with a lower price is going to follow that stripped down Monoprice monitor into that price zone. They are going to do some integration as a value add.

lesferdinand said:

I don't think a 6 year old iMac warrants having Apple replace the HDD. I was planning on getting a new machine anyway but was kind of holding out for a retina iMac.

But I'm sure I'll enjoy the nMP

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A 2007 iMac is still a capable machine. Please put in a new hard drive or small SSD and at least give the machine away to somebody who can make use of it.

lesferdinand said:

I was thinking of the potential future use-case of attaching TB1 hard drive enclosures to the ATP's Thunderbolt port. There's no real need to do so, as the nMP has plenty of TB2 ports.

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If they are sneaker-net TB HDDs ( that you'll be attaching/deatching regularly to transport large files ) then the single port on the ATD is easier not to mistakenly yank the wrong cable on.

As a pragmatically more permanent attachment point then yes one the Mac Pro will make more sense.

But even if I'd want to, performance wise it wouldn't make much of a difference, right, as the HDD read/write speed wouldn't exhaust TB1's bandwidth.

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It depends upon how many HDDs you have on the TB v1 daisy chain. Add up enough doing concurrent access and you can. Single/Double sneaker-net transport drive enclosure then probably not.

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wildmac said:

I would say this is closer to a Rolex vs Timex discussion.. ..

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Not really when folks say they are looking for a Mac Pro mainly to read email, surf the web and play part time with some photo collection and serve itunes. it really is front end loader versus shovel time.

Frankly the bigger dust up disconnects are folks in that class ( or folks pointing to that class ) claiming they they are one of the primary market classes Apple is targeting with the Mac Pro. That there is some requirement that Apple have some system that primarily is intended to suck up discretionary income. To be expensive, for just be expensive sake has some sort value. "I want to blow $3K reading email" is in a totally different zone than "I have requirements that I blow $3K reading email".

lesferdinand said:

I'm thinking of getting the current Thunderbolt display in the interim, figuring that I'll be adding a 4K display to it in the next year or two for photo/video editing. I'd keep the non-4K display around for gaming purposes, assuming that even the D700's would struggle to maintain a 60FPS framerate at 4K resolution and a 'native' 2560x1440 screen would look better than a non-native resolution on a 4K display (and the latter may also introduce scaling lag). Does this reasoning make sense?

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I think your reasoning is sound. I'm in a similar position, but I already have a 2560 X 1600 monitor. Some time in the next 3-6 months I'll by a 4K. Unfortunately I have some unusual requirements, so I may have to compromise on what I buy. At present my fall-back is the 50" Seiki, but that is only capable of a 30Hz frame rate. I'm hoping for something better by the end of January.

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jondunford said:

because most of the readers on here think us non-professional nMP buyers have no right to purchase the machine :-/

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Non-professional?:roll eyes: I'm highly professional at what I do. I charge my clients in excess of $100/hour for it. I just don't do photography, music or videos and my graphics are engineering in nature. The nMP is exceeds some of my requirements, but it also provides some capabilities I don't think I can find elsewhere. Overall I find it an attractive compromise. I'll be placing my order tomorrow.

Don't anyone call me non-professional!

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Yahooligan said:

I think this is the first time I've heard someone use the excuse of a dead HDD to buy a whole new computer. Stranger things have happened, though.

Enjoy the nMP.

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Consider that was on a 6-year old computer. It was probably the last straw.

Derpage said:

No angst here. Just amused and slightly bewildered. Most people don't go buying front end loaders when they need a shovel for their yard. If your neighbor (virtual or real) were to do so, if you didn't chuckle and think "What a nut." more power to you I guess.

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I probably would chuckle, but I might also be wrong. That neighbor might have a specialized need I know nothing about or might be aware of a downstream use I'd never considered.

Almost every one buys the occasional tool they don't need. I have a wood lath that I seldom use. On the other hand, many more people who make apparently silly purchases have a sound reason for them even if you wouldn't agree with that reason. How many people really need an iPhone?

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wildmac said:

Well, to really throw some folks into conniption fits.. what games?

I'd argue that a lot of the Mac titles (especially the Blizzard ones) won't benefit at all from a 4k display, and might look a lot worse, since their texture maps aren't designed for that sort of display.

You'd likely get a better gaming experience from a standard HD monitor with higher framerates, than from attempting to move up to a 4k.

Edit: missread the first post a bit. But yeah, no 4k for games..

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I play SimCity occasionally. I'd like to see if I can max out the visual quality setting on the nMP, but I'll do that on my existing monitor.

lesferdinand said:

Yes, that's what I'm counting on a bit. If the machine sells well enough, software developers will adjust their applications. Happy to contribute to that. It may benefit the pros as well.

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It's more than just this machine, really. For a couple of decades there, Moore's Law made transistors smaller, and it turned out as they got smaller, you could also run them faster. This resulted in a long period -- overlapping with almost the entire history of personal computing -- during which the same code, written in the same way, just ran faster and faster every year, as clock speed ramped from below 1 MHz to over 3 GHz.

But unless there's some unforeseen breakthrough, those days are over for silicon ICs. Things have hit a wall, where cycling faster quickly begins to use way too much power and generate way too much heat. The future is now about parallel architecture. That means more CPU cores, yes, but fully general CPUs have constraints and complexities that make really massive parallelism difficult. GPUs, with their thousands of simple parallel cores, are the embodiment of mass-parallel architecture.

GPU compute isn't suitable for every sort of algorithm, of course. But with clock speeds stalled, it's what we've got. Now, I have little doubt that the computers on sale a decade from now will still be much more capable than the ones we have now. The new Mac Pro is a bet on Apple's part that more of that additional capability will come from improvement to GPU-like architectures than from the sort of CPU improvements we've seen historically.

If this bet is right, Apple will hardly be the only company building GPU-centric machines. It will inevitably become the new norm, as GPU performance increases outpace CPU performance increases. We may even seen CPUs evolve in more GPU-like directions (Intel's Many Integrated Core architecture is perhaps a step in that direction). Any algorithm that can be ported to the GPU will be ported to the GPU, and there will probably be entire new categories of software enabled by massively more powerful GPUs.

What about reusing the iMac display?
Target Display Mode

theSeb said:

Apple displays are not calibrated out of the box. The Dell u2713H is. (Note that the HM is the cheap version. The H version is the one you want). I would also not let my wife make my computing purchases forcing me to buy inferior stuff just because it looks prettier.

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I've seen 2713h next to a tb 27 and the Dell is better in my humblest in not only mine but the clients eyes too. Doesn't look as nice at all construction wise but it's the screen that counts. Not too glossy and the colours are better. Plus if you are ultra fussy after calibration ring Dell complain and they will swap it out. The earlier firmware models aren't as good, think the latest is a05.

I prefer the u2413 personally, think it's better than its bigger brother but you need the res..