Using power line adaptors across circuit breakers?

CH12671 said:

He doesn't mean phase, but rather bus. Your distribution panel should have 3 separate busses if you are on 3 phase electricity. Here in the US, we are on single, split phase (most people mistake it for two phase, but it really isn't). Anyway, the two hot wires that come into the distribution panel each attach to a separate bus at the panel. Your gizmos will have to be on the same bus, or there would be no way for the signal to travel from one to the other. Your problem can be fixed, but would require an electrician.

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Shane1905 said:

Yes he does mean phase, UK and US electrical supplies are completely different, in the UK we operate on 3 phase and neutral supplies meaning 415v between phases and 230v between any phase and neutral (or earth). Most domestic supplies are a single phase, your neighbour will normally be on the second and their neighbour on the third before repeating the cycle so that the load on the transformer is balanced. If for whatever reason you premises requires a 3 phase supply, for example a workshop, large office building, farm etc your circuits should be clearly marked so that you know which circuit is on which phase. In the US I believe you are on 115v split transformers meaning between any live cable and earth there will be only be 57.5v lowering the chance of an electric shock during a fault and the full 115v between both live cables. This is what we use for power tools etc in external industrial settings in the UK.

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Shane1905 said:

Yes he does mean phase, UK and US electrical supplies are completely different, in the UK we operate on 3 phase and neutral supplies meaning 415v between phases and 230v between any phase and neutral (or earth). Most domestic supplies are a single phase, your neighbour will normally be on the second and their neighbour on the third before repeating the cycle so that the load on the transformer is balanced. If for whatever reason you premises requires a 3 phase supply, for example a workshop, large office building, farm etc your circuits should be clearly marked so that you know which circuit is on which phase. In the US I believe you are on 115v split transformers meaning between any live cable and earth there will be only be 57.5v lowering the chance of an electric shock during a fault and the full 115v between both live cables. This is what we use for power tools etc in external industrial settings in the UK.

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Gav2k said:

The only time they do not work is when the adaptors are on different phases.

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CH12671 said:

So, does each phase come in on a separate bus? And yes, we are on 120v (+/-) split phase, so there are 240v difference between the two hot wires at peak. Not sure what you mean by 57.5v, unless you are averaging. At peak, there would be 120v difference between one side and earth ground.

Edit: Nevermind, I see from reading another post that each house only gets one of the three phases.

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Well, we operate on 3 phase here in the US as well. My understanding of what you guys were saying is that you have 3 phase electricity into each home. You have 3 phase from the generator, with one phase going into each home. Each phase being 230v differential from the ground? Here in US we have 3 phases at 120 degrees....which I'm sure is what you have there (anything else would be way inefficient). The only difference is you send the whole 230v from one phase into a house (so your transformers are stepping down to 230 v) and here in the US our transformers split one phase (center tap) and send 120v down two hot wires (oriented at 180 degrees to each other). Each 120v wire attaches to a separte bus at the distribution panel. And yes, all three phases will normally go into a neighborhood, and your neighbor will be on a different phase than you....it's a rotation to evenly distribute the load. This is why every third house could potentially lose electricity, if something happened to one phase.

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So then answer me this riddle....if each house gets only one phase, then why would we suggest it won't work if they are on different phases? Wouldn't we assume that both ends of the adapter are in the same house?

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arjunbendre said:

Thanks for your reply. I tried; it didn't work! I hoped that someone here would come up with a genius reply?!

I've had pretty good luck with the netgear powerline adapters. On one occasion, I was getting really slow, almost no throughput. May have been a coincidence, but there was a table lamp plugged into the same outlet, with a new "energy efficient" bulb. Turning off that bulb, instantly made the connection better.


B

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Gav2k said:

My last house came with a workshop(large garage) to the rear that was run as a small business back in the 80's. The electricity supply had been moved from single phase to 3 phase. In the early 90's the workshop was closed down and the property was rewired fully but the existing 3 phase supply remained.

The three phases were used in the following manor.

1nd phase was run out to the garage.
2nd was used on the kitchen and bathroom
3rd phase was used for 3 ring mains and lighting

When I converted the loft space for my sons bedroom the only phases I could wire into due to the fuse board being full on the 3rd phase was the 1st or 2nd so to speak. No issue until fibre optic broadband came along and I wanted to give his computer a hardwired connection from the router.

Power line adaptors in this instance do not work. I ended up running a cat6 cable up to the roof space.

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CH12671 said:

OK, now that makes sense....so the different parts of your property were electrically isolated.

I apologize if I confused the OP. I knew UK was on ~230v, but didn't realize that was coming in on a single, coherent phase. Thanks for teaching me!

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CH12671 said:

So, does each phase come in on a separate bus? And yes, we are on 120v (+/-) split phase, so there are 240v difference between the two hot wires at peak. Not sure what you mean by 57.5v, unless you are averaging. At peak, there would be 120v difference between one side and earth ground.

Edit: Nevermind, I see from reading another post that each house only gets one of the three phases.

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Well, we operate on 3 phase here in the US as well. My understanding of what you guys were saying is that you have 3 phase electricity into each home. You have 3 phase from the generator, with one phase going into each home. Each phase being 230v differential from the ground? Here in US we have 3 phases at 120 degrees....which I'm sure is what you have there (anything else would be way inefficient). The only difference is you send the whole 230v from one phase into a house (so your transformers are stepping down to 230 v) and here in the US our transformers split one phase (center tap) and send 120v down two hot wires (oriented at 180 degrees to each other). Each 120v wire attaches to a separte bus at the distribution panel. And yes, all three phases will normally go into a neighborhood, and your neighbor will be on a different phase than you....it's a rotation to evenly distribute the load. This is why every third house could potentially lose electricity, if something happened to one phase.

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So then answer me this riddle....if each house gets only one phase, then why would we suggest it won't work if they are on different phases? Wouldn't we assume that both ends of the adapter are in the same house?

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Shane1905 said:

I see you now understand from the description that followed this comment but I'd just like to say that google is not only obvious but is also not your friend when trying to when trying to correct someone with almost 10 years practical day in day out experience with the exact thing I was writing about I think you'll find that between 'hot' wires in your house there will only be 120v not 240, half your supply voltage is what you will have live to earth IF you are running on a centre tapped transformer, the centre tap is earth. So if you have 120v from one end of the transformer to the other then you will have half in the middle. This is all besides the point though. As I'm sure he has now found out, same phase good, different phase bad. That's all you need to know with power line adapters. Old wiring systems can slow your speed down due to poor connections and the possibility of no earthing but modern houses should have no issues whatsoever. When seeking any electrical advice always seek it from someone at the very least from the same country as you as different nations have very different wiring systems and standards, it's not the type of thing you want to get wrong as you'll most likely only do it the once.

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arjunbendre said:

Thanks for your reply. I tried; it didn't work! I hoped that someone here would come up with a genius reply?!

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You could try getting it across to another phase using 4 adapters in one of two different ways. One from your router into an adapter, the next adapter on the same phase located somewhere near a plug for the phase you need to get onto, plug an adaptor into that second phase and like the two adapters together using Ethernet cable then your fourth adapter wherever you need it to be on that phase, or, two Ethernet cables from your router to two adapters one on each required phase and then the third and fourth adapters wherever they are needed on each one. Like this: http://www.tp-link.com/en/article/?id=406

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nebo1ss said:

Actually in the US there is 120 volt between each hot wire and earth. In the Kitchen they normally run both hot wires to the cooker and the dryer to get 240 volts because there is 240 volts between the two hot wires. These are devices in a US home that needs 240 volts.

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Learn something new every day, cheers. This proves my point about seeking advice from people in your own country when it comes to this type of thing. Out of curiosity, does that mean you have two lives, a neutral and an earth? So a 4 wire system?

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Shane1905 said:

arjunbendre said:

Thanks for your reply. I tried; it didn't work! I hoped that someone here would come up with a genius reply?!

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You could try getting it across to another phase using 4 adapters in one of two different ways. One from your router into an adapter, the next adapter on the same phase located somewhere near a plug for the phase you need to get onto, plug an adaptor into that second phase and like the two adapters together using Ethernet cable then your fourth adapter wherever you need it to be on that phase, or, two Ethernet cables from your router to two adapters one on each required phase and then the third and fourth adapters wherever they are needed on each one. Like this: http://www.tp-link.com/en/article/?id=406

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Learn something new every day, cheers. This proves my point about seeking advice from people in your own country when it comes to this type of thing. Out of curiosity, does that mean you have two lives, a neutral and an earth? So a 4 wire system?

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Yes you have two lives each on its own bus. Neutral and Earth is the same and hence you only use three wires.

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nebo1ss said:

Shane1905 said:

Yes you have two lives each on its own bus. Neutral and Earth is the same and hence you only use three wires.

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Ahh, we keep neutral and earth separate away from the transformer so that any earth fault current has its own path back to star point, neutral and earth are linked at star point depending on the type of connection, TNS, TNCS or TT, TNS means earth and neutral separate from the transformer onwards, TNCS means earth and neutral are combined upto your electricity meter where they are then separated to give neutral and earth cables and TT is when you use and earth rod instead of the having earthing from the supply cable. This allows us to use RCD's which monitor the magnetic fields around both the live and neutral cables, as long as all the current going out via live returns via the neutral the magnetic fields balance eachother out, if any current leaks to earth for example via a person touching a live cable then less or no current returns via neutral causing an imbalance through the RCD, this induces a current in the coil or the RCD allowing it to trip at very small fault current such as 30mA in only a few mS, if you have an appliance running 120v does that mean you have one live wire and use the earth as a neutral so just two wires? Sorry for the boring questions, I just find the little differences interesting. Cheers

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Shane1905 said:

I see you now understand from the description that followed this comment but I'd just like to say that google is not only obvious but is also not your friend when trying to when trying to correct someone with almost 10 years practical day in day out experience with the exact thing I was writing about I think you'll find that between 'hot' wires in your house there will only be 120v not 240, half your supply voltage is what you will have live to earth IF you are running on a centre tapped transformer, the centre tap is earth. So if you have 120v from one end of the transformer to the other then you will have half in the middle. This is all besides the point though. As I'm sure he has now found out, same phase good, different phase bad. That's all you need to know with power line adapters. Old wiring systems can slow your speed down due to poor connections and the possibility of no earthing but modern houses should have no issues whatsoever. When seeking any electrical advice always seek it from someone at the very least from the same country as you as different nations have very different wiring systems and standards, it's not the type of thing you want to get wrong as you'll most likely only do it the once.

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CH12671 said:

Although you have already been corrected, I'd like to add that I don't use google to find out my information about electricity. I have a degree in physics. As you have since found out, our phases are split, and then shifted 180 degrees to each other, meaning that while one half is peaking at +120v, the other half is peaking at -120v, hence giving us 240v differential at peak. In fact, the old way of doing things didn't even involve a neutral or ground conductor when we wanted 240v, as the differential was already there. Then we added a third wire, and now we have added the 4th wire (earth ground). (new 240v appliances use plugs with 4 prongs). Again, beside the point, but I did want to point that out. I appreciate you comparing my knowledge of electricity to that of google's, but I got mine at a university, not online. We only use 240v for large appliances that require much electrical power....so as to lower the amount of current flowing through a circuit.

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However, I will readily admit that I have a lack of knowledge about the UK's system...but i have learned something today that I can take back to my classes.

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