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0098386

Suspended
Jan 18, 2005
21,574
2,908
PC gaming is not going away and I do think it is a better experience than consoles but all I am saying is game developers make the most money on the consoles and in the mobile market . If streaming games became a reality all of the different markets could play together which really is not a bad thing . It may take 5 - 10 years but gaming is moving towards streaming technology .

Not true at all. I've made games for PC and consoles, the PC ones are always the most successful. I can't talk for all developers but every single one I know personally has had more success on PC.
Mobile is fickle. You can't put serious investment into it but it's good to throw little projects onto it every so often, occasionally you'll get a hit that way.

It is not ready yet I am aware of that , but as hardware and broadband improve its just a matter of time . There have been a lot of streaming game services that have failed your correct . ONLIVE is one that is still going and it is very interesting but they do not have that many titles . It is not ready for prime time yet . In the next 5 - 10 years I see streaming becoming the way people play games . Who knows maybe I am completly wrong , it is just my opinion . People thought steaming videos and movies would never happen too but it eventually happend .

It won't ever be ready, or, it will always be an option. Even with fibre optic you're limited by the speed of light, processing times, there will always be input and display lag. It's more cumbersome (code and infrastructure wise) to send input data to a server, have it process the graphics and music and send that back. As resolutions increase, as 3D/VR becomes popular the bandwidth required would be big. There will be more input data too if tech like biometrics becomes standard. Of course connections speeds will get faster too and bandwidth would need to be unlimited.

Basically there is zero benefit to streaming other than being able to play your game on any device. That can be achieved by other methods (you running your own streaming, a la Wii U or PS4/Vita). Then there's no running costs for the dev/publisher of the game, no maintenance... basically streaming is more work and more costly.

I've seen nothing to suggest that game streaming will replace traditional gaming.
 

DavidG328

macrumors regular
Mar 17, 2009
191
0
Portland, OR
I can come up with thousands of hours of Native Mac entertainment that is good stuff and there is only so much time to play. That is why I feel that at this point, Mac gaming has reached awesomeness I guess. There is a ton of great stuff to play. Yes, Windows has even more, a lot more but who has the time?

What it really comes down to is how important are certain exclusives more than anything else. I'm not arguing somebody shouldn't get Windows if they want those exclusives, fine, get Windows in some fashion then. But I will still argue that Mac gaming is great and has a lot to offer.

Thousands of hours that fit your interests. I'm not interested in playing Modern Warfare 4 now, I played that on my PC years ago. Sure, I've been playing Civ 5 on my Mac now since recently discovering this gem, but what about Battlefield 4 and the new CoD? I know I can boot in to Windows...but here's another thing about gaming on a Mac...I can't upgrade my GPU at any point. I don't really know what point I'm trying to make here other than gaming on a Mac certainly isn't for everyone, and still has a LONG ways to go.

----------

I don't think Mac Gaming is "awesome". I do think that the state of Mac Gaming has gotten better in recent years (e.g. Aspyr and Feral giving us solid AAA title ports with shorter delays behind the PC original).

Getting better, yes. Awesome? No.

Amen.
 

Dirtyharry50

macrumors 68000
Original poster
May 17, 2012
1,769
183
Thousands of hours that fit your interests. I'm not interested in playing Modern Warfare 4 now, I played that on my PC years ago. Sure, I've been playing Civ 5 on my Mac now since recently discovering this gem, but what about Battlefield 4 and the new CoD? I know I can boot in to Windows...but here's another thing about gaming on a Mac...I can't upgrade my GPU at any point. I don't really know what point I'm trying to make here other than gaming on a Mac certainly isn't for everyone, and still has a LONG ways to go.

Well, you are certainly entitled to your preferences and opinion. I was just sharing mine. I'm enthusiastic about Mac gaming and glad that there's more good stuff to play than I can find time for. It's a wonderful problem to have. :D
 

mintfan7200

macrumors member
Feb 18, 2014
61
0
Not true at all. I've made games for PC and consoles, the PC ones are always the most successful. I can't talk for all developers but every single one I know personally has had more success on PC.
Mobile is fickle. You can't put serious investment into it but it's good to throw little projects onto it every so often, occasionally you'll get a hit that way.



It won't ever be ready, or, it will always be an option. Even with fibre optic you're limited by the speed of light, processing times, there will always be input and display lag. It's more cumbersome (code and infrastructure wise) to send input data to a server, have it process the graphics and music and send that back. As resolutions increase, as 3D/VR becomes popular the bandwidth required would be big. There will be more input data too if tech like biometrics becomes standard. Of course connections speeds will get faster too and bandwidth would need to be unlimited.

Basically there is zero benefit to streaming other than being able to play your game on any device. That can be achieved by other methods (you running your own streaming, a la Wii U or PS4/Vita). Then there's no running costs for the dev/publisher of the game, no maintenance... basically streaming is more work and more costly.

I've seen nothing to suggest that game streaming will replace traditional gaming.

Like I said it is just my opinion I may be wrong . I just thought it was a interesting thought or discussion to talk about .
 

smoketetsu

macrumors member
Mar 28, 2008
62
0
Well besides the big sticking points that I and others have mentioned earlier such as no offline play, no mods, and less "ownership" of software than even Steam.

It can't be overstated the bandwidth problem of streaming to different places on earth. Many places don't have the bandwidth to give the same kind of fidelity of resolution, latency, etc. as local gaming via streaming. Especially in the parts USA where bandwidth caps are still a thing and many places overcharge for what should be simple basic access that's way way under 1Gbps and rolling out of stuff like fiber is super slow and some places may not get say.. google fiber or Verison FIOS now or anytime in the near future.

Ping is often times a byproduct of distance and the amount of equipment between you and the service you are streaming from and the type of internet connection you have. It's possible to have high bandwidth but also high ping at the same time.

I see someone mentioned movies and TV shows but those tend to be passive entertainment and most movies are stuff that most people really only want to watch one time and ping doesn't matter one bit. Also, with movies resolution doesn't matter as much because they are always shot at much much higher resolution and then downsampled to whatever target resolution such as 720p, 1080p, etc. So they have massive amounts of oversampling and the highest quality rendering built in.

Simply put comparing streaming movies\shows to games is apples to oranges. Even with movies though there is some benefit to having some offline movies such as higher fidelity sound, picture, being able to shut off your internet and still watch movies, etc. watching movies where there is no internet.... possibly other scenarios I haven't thought of.

Also, some people talk about the latency of cloud gaming as it'd be a replacement for the latency inherent in our computer\gaming equipment. But that's not so... latency is cumulative. So the latency of cloud gaming would just ADD to the input lag that we already experience with local gaming.. not supplant it.

Lastly, Mac gaming may not be for everyone and has a long way to go but so does many other platforms including PC. There's always room for improvement. Many PC game ports haven't turned out well when they should have. Part of the problem that both PC and Mac gaming have though is one of perception. Many people for example don't realize that one can use just about any kind of controller they want with a PC or Mac and they aren't just limited to keyboard and mouse if they don't want to me. So more genres work on those platforms than one might suspect due to the variety of peripherals one can use.
 
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erayser

macrumors 65816
Apr 9, 2011
1,252
1,179
San Diego
Thousands of hours that fit your interests. I'm not interested in playing Modern Warfare 4 now, I played that on my PC years ago. Sure, I've been playing Civ 5 on my Mac now since recently discovering this gem, but what about Battlefield 4 and the new CoD? I know I can boot in to Windows...but here's another thing about gaming on a Mac...I can't upgrade my GPU at any point. I don't really know what point I'm trying to make here other than gaming on a Mac certainly isn't for everyone, and still has a LONG ways to go.

Amen.

If someone is having a good experience with a certain platform and wants to stay with it... I think that is a good thing. That is a good reason not to go back to something that they once had a bad experience with. Windows isn't for everyone... I sometimes get frustrated with it at times with driver issues I run into... but I'm patient enough to find a solution. I hear you on being about to play current games... especially multiplayer games that rank up, players get better, and unlock weapons... while waiting for a port. I know how it is to come late into a matured game... and all the experienced players with better weapons trolls new players. Takes the fun out of the game. But for some Mac players... it's more important to play on platform they are happy with... and worth not having to deal with windows. I can respect that.

The point you made on not able to upgrade is why I stick with PC's. Upgrading my GPU, CPU, Motherboard, watercooling systems, modding cases is more than half the fun for me... besides just gaming. It would drive me nuts not being about update my specs to play current games in ultra settings... but that's just me... it all comes down to preference. I've said it many times... If you are happy with the platform you gaming with, that is all that matters. There is no need to convince others or justify your preference. As for me, I like playing my games like Tomb Raider (which I bought for $12.00 for a 2013 game on steam) in tri-surround monitors in ultra settings and TressFX On, running at 89 to 120 fps... with the option to play in stereoscopic 3D (Best looking 3D game I've ever played). That's what makes gaming awesome to me... and playing current games.:p
 

DavidG328

macrumors regular
Mar 17, 2009
191
0
Portland, OR
If someone is having a good experience with a certain platform and wants to stay with it... I think that is a good thing. That is a good reason not to go back to something that they once had a bad experience with. Windows isn't for everyone... I sometimes get frustrated with it at times with driver issues I run into... but I'm patient enough to find a solution. I hear you on being about to play current games... especially multiplayer games that rank up, players get better, and unlock weapons... while waiting for a port. I know how it is to come late into a matured game... and all the experienced players with better weapons trolls new players. Takes the fun out of the game. But for some Mac players... it's more important to play on platform they are happy with... and worth not having to deal with windows. I can respect that.

The point you made on not able to upgrade is why I stick with PC's. Upgrading my GPU, CPU, Motherboard, watercooling systems, modding cases is more than half the fun for me... besides just gaming. It would drive me nuts not being about update my specs to play current games in ultra settings... but that's just me... it all comes down to preference. I've said it many times... If you are happy with the platform you gaming with, that is all that matters. There is no need to convince others or justify your preference. As for me, I like playing my games like Tomb Raider (which I bought for $12.00 for a 2013 game on steam) in tri-surround monitors in ultra settings and TressFX On, running at 89 to 120 fps... with the option to play in stereoscopic 3D (Best looking 3D game I've ever played). That's what makes gaming awesome to me... and playing current games.:p

Off topic, I love the machine in your sig. That's exactly what I'm looking for.
 

Essenar

macrumors 6502a
Oct 24, 2008
553
186
Mac gaming forces me to remember what gaming is in my life: a small distraction. I enjoy the games available on Mac like League, Borderlands 2, Rust, DOTA 2, Half Life series, Blizzard games and some RPG's and emulators. But not having as many games as available in Windows allows me to not get engulfed in gaming.

I have other priorities and my MacBook is miles better at fulfilling the responsibilities of those other priorities than any Windows computer on the planet. The fact that I would need around 15 downloaded add-ons just to give Windows the productivity features I need means it's an archaic operating system to me.

I love my Mac and I love the gaming I can do with it. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to enjoy a game of League before I write my homework assignment with my 10+ hours of battery life. :D
 

0098386

Suspended
Jan 18, 2005
21,574
2,908
Well besides the big sticking points that I and others have mentioned earlier such as no offline play, no mods, and less "ownership" of software than even Steam.

That's just for the players though. Developers don't really care about mods unless the game is deliberately meant to support it (Skyrim, for example). No publisher would value being able to mod a game above the potentially lucrative position of selling a very limited license to run a game to be played remotely. Unfortunately!

What kills streaming is just the latency, but thankfully it's something that can never be fixed. Even data moving around the world at the speed of light with fibre options will have latency.

What I've always been a fan of is the possibility to tweak games online. Whenever a game boots up it checks for new data and pulls it down. Not in a "patch" way, but to modify enemy behaviours or weather patterns (for example they could have AI riots in GTA Online every so often). I think this is the promise of the Xbox Azure cloud.

I can well imagine something like Steam in-house streaming, PS4 to Vita streaming... there's a lot of potential in local streaming. Being able to run your games from your big PC and stream them to devices or TVs around the house would be a big step towards decentralising game playing.

Mac gaming forces me to remember what gaming is in my life: a small distraction. I enjoy the games available on Mac like League, Borderlands 2, Rust, DOTA 2, Half Life series, Blizzard games and some RPG's and emulators. But not having as many games as available in Windows allows me to not get engulfed in gaming.

I have other priorities and my MacBook is miles better at fulfilling the responsibilities of those other priorities than any Windows computer on the planet. The fact that I would need around 15 downloaded add-ons just to give Windows the productivity features I need means it's an archaic operating system to me.

I love my Mac and I love the gaming I can do with it. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to enjoy a game of League before I write my homework assignment with my 10+ hours of battery life. :D
Sounds like you have a problem with gaming if you're thankful that the Mac has fewer games so it can't take over your life.

Interestingly the reason why I dual boot is because my developer tools don't work properly (or at all) under OSX, heh. Being able to play any game on Steam is a nice by-product. With my 0 hour battery life on my 27" iMac.
 

edddeduck

macrumors 68020
Mar 26, 2004
2,061
13
That's just for the players though. Developers don't really care about mods unless the game is deliberately meant to support it (Skyrim, for example). No publisher would value being able to mod a game above the potentially lucrative position of selling a very limited license to run a game to be played remotely. Unfortunately!

That's a pretty big assumption, games that support modding often sell in good numbers for years afterwards due to modding extending the life so although it isn't always a direct aim having modders is almost always a good thing.

As for the second assumption that's not always the case, streaming does have some DRM advantages but if these restrict sales then it is not automatically a good idea. As streaming would massively limit your user base I don't think the tipping point you describe will happen until something fundamentally changes with the technology and the games market.

That said that's only my personal opinion :)

Edwin
 

0098386

Suspended
Jan 18, 2005
21,574
2,908
That's a pretty big assumption, games that support modding often sell in good numbers for years afterwards due to modding extending the life so although it isn't always a direct aim having modders is almost always a good thing.

As for the second assumption that's not always the case, streaming does have some DRM advantages but if these restrict sales then it is not automatically a good idea. As streaming would massively limit your user base I don't think the tipping point you describe will happen until something fundamentally changes with the technology and the games market.

That said that's only my personal opinion :)

Edwin
Aye, but I can see why developers go to lengths to put failsafes in against people who mod games that either ruin the experience, or ruin it for others in multiplayer. Heh, I keep coming back to Skyrim but that's really one of the best examples of a very effective mod community.
My experience is major publishers don't like mods, or anything that can impact DLC. Of course there are exceptions!
 

BlackBirdTech

macrumors newbie
Apr 23, 2014
5
0
I'm not really sure about that

Personally, I believe apple wants to go in the opposite direction. They have never really pushed games on OSX, and probably won't in the near future. I believe Linux is a more viable gaming platform, as indie developers are all supporting Linux (just look at Steam).
 

MacGamerHQ

macrumors member
Sep 25, 2012
98
0
Lyon, France
No platform has it all. Windows for example does not get Xbox, Playstation or Nintendo exclusives. The consoles do not get all games on PC. Mac is a smaller platform. It does get less releases than Windows certainly but it does get way more than anyone could keep up with who has a life outside of gaming that is for sure.

So it isn't really accurate to put down the Mac platform as sucking for games or being limited because honestly it doesn't suck at all and all platforms have some limitations. The beauty of a Mac for those who prefer them but do want access to Windows games is you can use Windows too if you want. I do not prefer that myself but the option is there for those who want it and choice is always good.

I'm not trying to convert the world here but I do like to let people know Mac gaming is not some barren wasteland of iOS ports on the App Store. We get a lot of great stuff which I won't list out here but you can see for yourself by checking the places I've mentioned above. By the way, some of those iOS ports only on Mac are pretty fun. :D

True that. It's crazy how people love to hate Apple, the Mac and specially Mac gaming. The problem is, trolls are so vocal (and have been for a long time) that even the average Mac user tell me it sucks that the Mac doesn't have many good games to play!

When Mac users tell you that, it means the overall impression on Mac gaming is pretty bad!

As the OP said, there are thousands of available games. Yes, some are older, some are small, but there are also hundreds of high profile, well received AAA games and Indies on the Mac.

I mean come on, the Mac has all of Blizzard and Valve's games (which are some of the best in the market), Aspyr and Feral keep porting the Batman, BioShock, Civilization, Borderlands, Tomb Raider, Lego franchises.

There's enough for any Mac user out there and probably for 99% gamers too. Hope this will be someday integrated in people's heads...
 

N19h7m4r3

macrumors 65816
Dec 15, 2012
1,191
8
I mean come on, the Mac has all of Blizzard and Valve's games (which are some of the best in the market), Aspyr and Feral keep porting the Batman, BioShock, Civilization, Borderlands, Tomb Raider, Lego franchises.

There's enough for any Mac user out there and probably for 99% gamers too. Hope this will be someday integrated in people's heads...

The Indie scene is particularly strong on the Mac. Strangely there also isn't as much shovel ware for OSX as there is for Windows lately. Steam really has just let anything onto their service lately.

Plus for RPG's all the old Wizard of the Coast games, Planescape Torment, Baldur's Gate, Icewind dale, they've all now been ported to OSX as well thanks to GoG.
 

Dirtyharry50

macrumors 68000
Original poster
May 17, 2012
1,769
183
But Windows does get Xbox exclusives...

If Windows gets Xbox games, those particular games are not exclusive to the Xbox.

I know more than a few Windows users who would love to see ALL of the Halo games ported to Windows for example but they are exclusive to the Xbox.
 

VI™

macrumors 6502a
Aug 27, 2010
636
1
Shepherdsturd, WV
Yeah well, there's a huge possibility that Aspyr is working on Titanfall for the Mac so...

That won't be running natively though. It would be like running a PS3 game on your PC with an emulator. The developer didn't specifically release it for that system. At least, that's my opinion on the matter anyways.

But it makes since, since Microsoft did make the xbox.
 

smoketetsu

macrumors member
Mar 28, 2008
62
0
A few things, firstly Aspyr doesn't use emulation in their games. They are all ported natively... They don't even use Wine or Cider. I could go into a bit more technical detail but that might just confuse the issue. Suffice to say that nothing they do is emulation or even virtualization. They use the same techniques and tools that Valve, Feral, etc. use when making natively ported games.

Secondly, even if it ends up coming out and badly optimized it wont be as demanding as PS3 emulation. There's no PC available right now that has enough power for PS3 emulation due to the nature of emulation especially emulating the cell processor. You wouldn't even be able to run Batman Arkham Asylum at decent settings in a PS3 emulator if you could get it to run at all on current hardware. But I can run it at 2560x1440 high on my current iMac.

Hell, even with Wii emulation one needs a 4GHz+ computer to play some of the games on there like Mario Galaxy at the emulators high settings... and it only had a ~700Mhz PowerPC G3 CPU basically.
 
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erayser

macrumors 65816
Apr 9, 2011
1,252
1,179
San Diego
Even if my hobby is building and upgrading my gaming rig... I would never think of playing a PS3 or PS4 emulated game on my rig... I bought a PS3 and PS4 to play exclusives only... I prefer playing multiplat games on my PC because gaming on NVidia surround on 3x 120Hz monitors doesn't compare to playing a console game on my TV. Fast FPS and refresh rate, no input lag, and immersive game play on 3 monitors is a great way to game. Anyhow... I'm glad there are devs out there bringing games to Mac owners. The only thing about waiting for games... especially multi-player only games like Titanfall... is that players are getting better and leveling up. It really sucks playing against a leveled up teams. I've been playing Titanfall on my PC since launch... but I don't play as often as the hardcore players... and I've been in a few lopsided games. Not fun... but they are getting better in balancing things out, but it's not perfect.
 

MacGamerHQ

macrumors member
Sep 25, 2012
98
0
Lyon, France
A few things, firstly Aspyr doesn't use emulation in their games. They are all ported natively... They don't even use Wine or Cider. I could go into a bit more technical detail but that might just confuse the issue. Suffice to say that nothing they do is emulation or even virtualization. They use the same techniques and tools that Valve, Feral, etc. use when making natively ported games.

Secondly, even if it ends up coming out and badly optimized it wont be as demanding as PS3 emulation. There's no PC available right now that has enough power for PS3 emulation due to the nature of emulation especially emulating the cell processor. You wouldn't even be able to run Batman Arkham Asylum at decent settings in a PS3 emulator if you could get it to run at all on current hardware. But I can run it at 2560x1440 high on my current iMac.

Hell, even with Wii emulation one needs a 4GHz+ computer to play some of the games on there like Mario Galaxy at the emulators high settings... and it only had a ~700Mhz PowerPC G3 CPU basically.

That, nothing more to add.... :)
 

twingo

macrumors regular
Jul 3, 2009
118
0
My macbook pro retina is the best piece of hardware i ever had. You even can play games on it. I sometimes use it to play Elder Scrolls Online.

But my cheap, six years old PC runs the game much better.
So there is nothing awesome in playing games on a mac.
 

VI™

macrumors 6502a
Aug 27, 2010
636
1
Shepherdsturd, WV
A few things, firstly Aspyr doesn't use emulation in their games. They are all ported natively... They don't even use Wine or Cider. I could go into a bit more technical detail but that might just confuse the issue. Suffice to say that nothing they do is emulation or even virtualization. They use the same techniques and tools that Valve, Feral, etc. use when making natively ported games.

Secondly, even if it ends up coming out and badly optimized it wont be as demanding as PS3 emulation. There's no PC available right now that has enough power for PS3 emulation due to the nature of emulation especially emulating the cell processor. You wouldn't even be able to run Batman Arkham Asylum at decent settings in a PS3 emulator if you could get it to run at all on current hardware. But I can run it at 2560x1440 high on my current iMac.

Hell, even with Wii emulation one needs a 4GHz+ computer to play some of the games on there like Mario Galaxy at the emulators high settings... and it only had a ~700Mhz PowerPC G3 CPU basically.

Well then is it Feral that makes Wine ports? I'm thinking of some company.

And the PS3 thing was just an anaolgy.
 

N19h7m4r3

macrumors 65816
Dec 15, 2012
1,191
8
Well then is it Feral that makes Wine ports? I'm thinking of some company.

And the PS3 thing was just an anaolgy.

No, Feral is all native ports.

Could be thinking of Transgaming and their Cider ports.
 
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