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Old Mar 6, 2014, 06:34 AM   #1
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Apple Loses Renewed Bid for U.S. Ban on Samsung Products




In the time of the first Apple v. Samsung trial in 2011, Apple requested an injunction to prevent Samsung from selling its Galaxy line of smartphones and tablets within the United States. Apple stated that the 23 products in question violated three of its multitouch software patents, including the scroll-back, tap-to-zoom, and pinch-to-zoom patents. Judge Lucy Koh then denied Apple's request, stating there was no proof Apple would be damaged if Samsung was able to continue the sale of its products.

In November 2013 however, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit ruled that Judge Koh would be required to reconsider her decision to not ban Samsung devices that infringed on Apple products. In December, Apple formally filed another motion calling for a U.S. ban on Samsung products.

Now, FOSS Patents reports that Judge Koh has denied Apple's new bid calling for a U.S. ban on Samsung products, stating that the company has not proved that its infringed upon patents drive consumer demand for Samsung devices.
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To persuade the Court to grant Apple such an extraordinary injunction--to bar such complex devices for incorporating three touchscreen software features--Apple bears the burden to prove that these three touchscreen software features drive consumer demand for Samsung's products. Apple has not met this burden.
The ruling comes ahead of a second patent lawsuit between Apple and Samsung set to begin on March 13, 2014. Notably, Samsung will only be allowed to have four patent claims to bring to the trial, as Judge Koh voided two of its patent claims in January. Apple will be able to bring all five of its patent claims to the trial.


Article Link: Apple Loses Renewed Bid for U.S. Ban on Samsung Products
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Old Mar 6, 2014, 06:38 AM   #2
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So much for all the haters saying Judge Koh is pro-Apple. That's going to upset a lot of people...
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Old Mar 6, 2014, 06:39 AM   #3
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Good. Banning products is the most ridiculous outcome that could happen.
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Old Mar 6, 2014, 06:41 AM   #4
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I totally agree with no ban on samsung products... however

I think samsung should have to remove pinch to zoom tap to zoom and scroll back from all future products to avoid them being banned.

I would have thought it obvious no one would want a samsung phone without these touch screen feature you would not need to prove that to see it evident in sales of new phones without it.

I honestly think the patents are stupid in the first place but if the judge wants to play by the rules and fudge them, then just go along with it and get the features removed. The systems of patents is so broken anyway.
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Old Mar 6, 2014, 06:51 AM   #5
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I honestly think the patents are stupid in the first place but if the judge wants to play by the rules and fudge them, then just go along with it and get the features removed. The systems of patents is so broken anyway.
How are patents stupid? How would you feel if you invented something I just came and stole the idea and made billions of dollars and cut into your profit?
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Old Mar 6, 2014, 06:54 AM   #6
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If Apples patents were used by Samsung, "there was no proof Apple would be damaged if Samsung was able to continue the sale of its products" is a joke of an answer.

They had a patent on it. End of discussions.

Samsung should be banned, until they remove said patents. Otherwise patents become redundant.
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Old Mar 6, 2014, 07:04 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by luckydcxx View Post
How are patents stupid? How would you feel if you invented something I just came and stole the idea and made billions of dollars and cut into your profit?
The concept of patents is fine and sound.

It's the stuff that gets patented that makes same silly. Some patents are plain stupid and stifle innovation .
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Old Mar 6, 2014, 07:23 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by luckydcxx View Post
How are patents stupid? How would you feel if you invented something I just came and stole the idea and made billions of dollars and cut into your profit?
How would you feel if you invented something which took off and made a lot of money, but out of nowhere a company you never heard of is suddenly suing you for 22 million dollars based on the way you designed a particular switch which happens to resemble a design that they had already patented, and regardless of the outcome of the case, still needing to pay a lot of money defending yourself due to court costs?
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Old Mar 6, 2014, 07:25 AM   #9
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So the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit told judge Koh to reconsider her decision, but she did not take the hint, and came back with the same ruling stating that Apple "has not proved that its infringed upon patents drive consumer demand for Samsung devices".

Unfortunately for Apple, that might be an exceedingly difficult thing to prove.
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Old Mar 6, 2014, 07:55 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Parasprite View Post
How would you feel if you invented something which took off and made a lot of money, but out of nowhere a company you never heard of is suddenly suing you for 22 million dollars based on the way you designed a particular switch which happens to resemble a design that they had already patented, and regardless of the outcome of the case, still needing to pay a lot of money defending yourself due to court costs?
i don't think they would win because of a similar design of a button, but i do get your point. Do you think that there shouldn't be any patents then?
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Old Mar 6, 2014, 08:11 AM   #11
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How are patents stupid? How would you feel if you invented something I just came and stole the idea and made billions of dollars and cut into your profit?
Probably the same as anyone with patents now where the only way to enforce them is to go though a lengthy and eye warteringly costly legal process. Patents are not stupid, its the patent system that is stupid.

----------

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If Apples patents were used by Samsung, "there was no proof Apple would be damaged if Samsung was able to continue the sale of its products" is a joke of an answer.

They had a patent on it. End of discussions.

Samsung should be banned, until they remove said patents. Otherwise patents become redundant.
Exactly, what is the point of patents when nothing can be done to prevent infringement.
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Old Mar 6, 2014, 08:37 AM   #12
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i don't think they would win because of a similar design of a button, but i do get your point. Do you think that there shouldn't be any patents then?
Actually, I have no opinion one way or the other. I just sometimes like to enter in and support other people's discussion with the best knowledge and reasoning I can muster given the circumstances. I do this as a sort of exercise or for fun; it's kind of like playing devil's advocate sometimes, but usually less heated.
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Old Mar 6, 2014, 08:50 AM   #13
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Another accomplished prediction by Florian Mueller
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Old Mar 6, 2014, 08:57 AM   #14
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Another accomplished prediction by Florian Mueller
WTF? I've only ever seen accurate reports and predictions from Mueller.

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Old Mar 6, 2014, 09:04 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by alexgowers View Post
I think samsung should have to remove pinch to zoom tap to zoom and scroll back from all future products to avoid them being banned.
Apple didn't invent pinch or tap to zoom, nor do they have patents on those in general.

What they have, are patents on the idea of doing a certain action right afterwards. Which is ridiculous anyway, since no one should be able to patent gesture ideas, any more than someone should be able to patent a new guitar chord.

However, as you pointed out, that's the sad state of software patents right now, so Samsung indeed did modify their code to supposedly not infringe in later devices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macs4nw View Post
So the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit told judge Koh to reconsider her decision, but she did not take the hint, and came back with the same ruling stating that Apple "has not proved that its infringed upon patents drive consumer demand for Samsung devices".
Looking at history (see my Nov 2013 post), almost every time Koh has allowed an injunction, it's backfired.

First, she allowed a pre-trial injunction on Samsung tablets. Oops, turned out that the jury said they did not infringe, so the injunction had to be lifted.

Then she allowed an injunction on a Nexus phone. Oops, appeals court reversed the injunction because it didn't meet a "causal nexus" requirement. That is, a patent on something that really made people choose which phone to buy.

Okay, so learning from the appeals court, she denied this current injunction request against Samsung phones because she didn't find a single causal nexus. Oops, the appeals court remands her decision to deny, adding onto their previous decision by now saying that a causal nexus could ALSO exist from an aggregate of patents.

And here we are. Apparently she did not find an aggregate causal nexus either.

Whew. It might be "good to be king", but sometimes it sucks to be a judge

.

Last edited by kdarling; Mar 6, 2014 at 09:15 AM. Reason: Split response for different topics
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Old Mar 6, 2014, 09:11 AM   #16
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Samsung is a joke!
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Old Mar 6, 2014, 09:14 AM   #17
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Good. Banning products is the most ridiculous outcome that could happen.
So if someone copied Windows 7, every single line of code, and sold it under a different name that would be fine with you?

I'm not saying that is necessarily the case here, but bans on products can be sensible.
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Old Mar 6, 2014, 09:18 AM   #18
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I am struggling with this judgment. If Apple cannot prove that Samsung is profiting from stealing three pattens that have been confirmed, then its okay for them to continue to steal them? Is that the interpretation here? I mean, regardless of what we think of the patten process, isn't the point that it is has been proven that the pattens are confirmed, and that Samsung is using them is confirmed. So no consequences?

I am not a lawyer or a legal scholar by any stretch, so it must be some legal mumbo-jumbo, but on the surface, this makes no sense. Will a legal scholar please edumacate me?
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Old Mar 6, 2014, 09:22 AM   #19
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So if someone copied Windows 7, every single line of code, and sold it under a different name that would be fine with you?

I'm not saying that is necessarily the case here, but bans on products can be sensible.
Fair point. But in this case, it is silly to even ask for a ban.
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Old Mar 6, 2014, 09:26 AM   #20
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Competition is good and perhaps necessary for consumers, Samsung is good at many things such as making memory chips and other silicons, LCDs, Refrigerators, whatever... BUT stealing the design and ideas from Apple( the company that causes many people saying the 'DESIGN' word today ) to making something that they were NOT that good at all and continuing to do that is something that is so obvious at least - let say - to me. even those people that own Samsung mobile products know that and usually buy one because of larger screen or something but most of them don't deny that their device is another copy of Apple's.Samsung even copies something that Apple just mentioned it, say, iWatch... It is night and day IMO...
BUT the thing is Apple HAVE TO innovate more and use its money more and more to bring things that worth paying for.
I like the way that they were good partners better.

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Old Mar 6, 2014, 09:56 AM   #21
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is so obvious at least - let say - to me. even those people that own Samsung mobile products know that and usually buy one because of larger screen or something but most of them don't deny that their device is another copy of Apple's.Samsung even copies something that Apple just mentioned it, say, iWatch.
Yes, obvious to you, to most of the people both claims are wrong.
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Old Mar 6, 2014, 10:18 AM   #22
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Fair point. But in this case, it is silly to even ask for a ban.
I agree that nick picking cases just clog the system.
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Old Mar 6, 2014, 10:25 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by tevion5 View Post
So if someone copied Windows 7, every single line of code, and sold it under a different name that would be fine with you?

I'm not saying that is necessarily the case here, but bans on products can be sensible.
In this case, it's more "open image when you double click", "select a portion of the picture to zoom" and "fancy animation when you're scrolling".
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Old Mar 6, 2014, 10:40 AM   #24
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I am struggling with this judgment. If Apple cannot prove that Samsung is profiting from stealing three pattens that have been confirmed, then its okay for them to continue to steal them? Is that the interpretation here?
Nope.

First off, it's incorrect to use a word like "steal" in software patent cases, since there's almost never anything actually stolen. This is about infringement. Anyone can infringe without stealing code or seeing someone else's methods. Infringement is mostly about who manages to get a patent first. Which yes, is stupid in the case of software, but that's a different topic.

Secondly, Apple did prove infringement, but the devices that infringed haven't been sold in the US for years.

Thirdly, Samsung modified their code long ago to no longer infringe.

--

In short, this is NOT about any current infringement.

Instead, what Apple wanted was a ban precedent to use against any future infringements.

In other words, they want to be able to get injunctions based on what judges so far have seen as relatively minor (in relation to the entire device) consumer shopping points.

--

Apple's primary expert witness said his survey showed that consumers would pay an extra $400+ for a smartphone with just six "Apple features" included. ($40 just for bounceback, IIRC)

However, he did not convince that judge that people actually decide which phone to buy based on those features, since there are alternative features he did not offer, plus he didn't factor in supply and demand, etc.

And the judge is apparently correct about buyers, since tens of millions of people have indeed bought phones even without such fluff as the bounceback that Apple claims is worth so much that phones should be banned over it.

Moreover, as the ruling noted, "When the Court directly asked at oral argument, even Apple’s counsel could not represent that Dr. Hauser’s survey proves that the patented features drive demand for Samsung’s products."

TL;DR - Apple had wanted to set a precedent for future sales bans over relatively minor features, by first asking for a ban on old devices that are no longer sold. They did not convince the court that the minor features in question were the primary reason why Apple lost sales to Samsung.

.

Last edited by kdarling; Mar 6, 2014 at 02:33 PM. Reason: Add TLDR
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Old Mar 6, 2014, 12:04 PM   #25
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Samsung is a joke!
Apple is not laughing. I can guarantee you that.
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