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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:23 PM   #26
starbird
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cambookpro View Post
Because almost everything would suddenly cost more, unless literally every company hypothetically absorbed the VAT increase as well. It wouldn't just affect Apple!

That's my point. That is what destroys the "Apple should absorb it" argument.

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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:24 PM   #27
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I have to pay taxes on the things I purchase from the iTunes and App Store so why shouldn't people in the UK have to pay taxes. No sympathy from me.
We did pay tax... just nice lower percentage Luxembourg tax
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:24 PM   #28
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So, a single digital track from iTunes could cost up to 1.20? How does that compare with other countries? I'm still getting over the increase from 79p to 99p!
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:24 PM   #29
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If you have a problem with this, blame your government, not Apple.
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:24 PM   #30
fredaroony
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Originally Posted by CrazyForApple View Post
Don't matter to me, I live in the U.S. Sorry UK
You just get to go bankrupt if you get health problems and don't have health insurance instead.....
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:25 PM   #31
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Digital download retailers such as Apple and Amazon presently avoid the UK's 20% VAT by selling from countries such as Luxembourg where the tax rate is only 3%.
Please update the article with a correction. FT says 3% rate is only for ebooks. VAT rates for other digital downloads in Luxembourg is 15%, much closer to the UK rates.
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:26 PM   #32
cambookpro
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Originally Posted by starbird View Post
That's my point. That is what destroys the "Apple should absorb it" argument.

Yes, and I agree - though if it were just Apple absorbing it, there would be riots as everything else would still cost more.

Unless the example used meant every company absorbed it (which, of course, as explained above is nonsense).
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:27 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by starbird View Post
I prefer it that way. I live in SC currently. I get an email every January telling me how much I bought that I need to claim on my taxes. I do, but know I am in the small minority who does so. We all, regardless amazon collecting the tax or not, are required to pay this tax. If amazon were to collect in every state, it would be best. Also, allows for a more fair environment for local businesses.
We in NY never got any emails or other reminders. The whole concept of a "sales tax" is a ripoff to begin with. Here I am, stimulating the economy by buying things in the first place, then I have to pay the state a tax on top of it?

But hey, federal taxes, income taxes, state taxes, property taxes, city taxes, school taxes, so why not sales taxes? Why don't they just get it over and introduce the "you're breathing our state air" tax?
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:28 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starbird View Post
Why would you riot? You aren't paying it in your example, Apple is.
In your example I am though. Hence my reply and your very daft if you think a 40% rise would never be passed onto the consumer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post
They had a duty to pay more than was legally required?
They were required by law to pay more, they dodged it using loopholes. How would you like it if you ran a small company and paid all your taxes, but Amazon paid next to none in your country despite trading there? Same thing.
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:30 PM   #35
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Why should Apple absorb the VAT tax? Should apple absorb the U.S sales tax too?
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:31 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by starbird View Post
Why would you riot? You aren't paying it in your example, Apple is.
Because VAT affects almost everything we buy. There is no way VAT will rise to 40% anyway, that'd just be ridiculous.
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:31 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Rafterman View Post
Don't feel bad, UK. Many here in the US know your pain. I live in New York State, which a while back instituted the "Amazon tax", making us one of the few states that actually taxes Amazon purchases. New York - the state that never met a tax it didn't love.
New York state must be the lost twin of Connecticut
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:33 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Redneck1089 View Post
The UK is such a joke.
No, the US healthcare system is a joke. Things like the VAT support the NHS.
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:33 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guardian
The budget document said: "As announced at budget 2013, the government will legislate to change the rules for the taxation of intra-EU business to consumer supplies of telecommunications, broadcasting and e-services. From 1 January 2015 these services will be taxed in the member state in which the consumer is located, ensuring these are taxed fairly and helping to protect revenue."
Interesting that the UK government actually have the power to do this, assuming it's at odds with EU legislation.

Presumably this means that UK-based companies selling e-services abroad will no longer be paying UK VAT on those sales? But they will be responsible for charging the correct sales tax for each one of the 28 EU states, and channeling that money to the appropriate Treasury, dependent upon where the buyer is located? I don't see the alternative: it *has* to be a reciprocal arrangement.

That'll make life fun for smaller e-businesses.
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:33 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by apolloa View Post
They were required by law to pay more, they dodged it using loopholes.
If the loopholes are legal, which they are, then Apple was not required by law to pay more. According to the law, which includes the loopholes, Apple payed all taxes required.
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:33 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by starbird View Post
Ok, let's play this game. App is 10. Currently, developer gets 7 and Apple 3. Under 1-Jan-2015 laws, and your proposal, Apple should, from their 3 profit, pay the 2 tax. Ok, the still make 1. What, then, stops the government from stating the VAT is 40% starting 1-Jan-2016. Should Apple then absorb that loss, too? So charge the customer 10, pay the developer 7, pay the government 4 and write off that 1 loss. Yeah, great idea.

This is going to come to the states soon enough. It is part of the problem that needs to be addressed because the laws have not kept up with the times.
One of the problems with these sorts of arguments is that you're assuming that the retailer had the pricing right in the first place.

Pricing of digital products is set using consumer-friendly price points:

$0.99 for a song
9.99 for a book
etc.

It's not just coincidence that when you work out the true cost of these things, then add on taxes that you end up with those prices. The prices are artificially set at that level.

You might find several retailers offering the same products at the same (or very similar) prices - but with each of them paying different amounts of tax because of where they are based.

When a tax increase comes along, some retailers will clearly admit that their margins are good enough to take the hit and keep the price point the same, others will put their prices up -regardless of whether they need to.
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:33 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by johnnyturbouk View Post
i feel that tax avoidance by companies like apple, amazon and starbucks is diabolical,
Actually, isn't it the UK citizen that avoided paying the tax? It's a tax on what the individual purchases, collected by the company for the benefit of the UK government. It has nothing to do with Apple's earnings.
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:34 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by brand View Post
I have to pay taxes on the things I purchase from the iTunes and App Store so why shouldn't people in the UK have to pay taxes. No sympathy from me.
It's not a case of UK people not paying tax. The single market across the EU states tax is paid at the place of purchase. The Apple Store sells goods out of Luxemboug and we therefore pay tax at their rates on our purchases.

If the iTunes store was in the UK we would pay UK tax but it isn't.

Osborne and Cameron want to change the EU single market to remove that and make consumers across the Union pay VAT in the country they live, not the country of purchase. That won't be an easy change. There are millions of cross border purchases every day for millions of goods and consumers in 28 states and will not take kindly to being told the single market will be broken to increase tax on items sold.
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:35 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Shrink View Post
Since I assume that you have lived in the UK (currently, or at some time) for some considerable period of time (otherwise the post would be...ah...ill considered), could you expand on the comment and explain why the UK is a joke.
I'm a British citizen and I have lived there, thank you.

I could go on about a lack of rights, censorship in the extreme, lack of privacy, crime, ill-conceived immigration policies, and astronomically high taxes...but that'd be too easy.

Why don't you explain to me why it's not a joke?
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:36 PM   #45
apolloa
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Originally Posted by JoEw View Post
Why should Apple absorb the VAT tax? Should apple absorb the U.S sales tax too?
Because in the UK American companies make an absolute killing with vastly, and I MEAN vastly inflated prices.

Take the iPhone 5S 16gb, in the US it is $649 on the Apple website so I guess tax not included, here in the UK on Apples website with our tax it costs $905.

So in the UK with tax I pay $256 more, and that is par for the course. I think some of you need to understand that before bloating, why should Apple absorb the cost...
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:36 PM   #46
brand
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Originally Posted by markrich View Post
It's not a case of UK people not paying tax. The single market across the EU states tax is paid at the place of purchase. The Apple Store sells goods out of Luxemboug and we therefore pay tax at their rates on our purchases.

If the iTunes store was in the UK we would pay UK tax but it isn't.

Osborne and Cameron want to change the EU single market to remove that and make consumers across the Union pay VAT in the country they live, not the country of purchase.
I see. Thanks for helping an American that only travels Internationally every 5 years or so to better understand.
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:39 PM   #47
apolloa
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Originally Posted by Redneck1089 View Post
The UK is such a joke.
And your nationality is what......?

Because if your an American, I suggest you look in the mirror first.
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:40 PM   #48
Shrink
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Originally Posted by Redneck1089 View Post
I'm a British citizen and I have lived there, thank you.

I could go on about a lack of rights, censorship in the extreme, lack of privacy, crime, ill-conceived immigration policies, and astronomically high taxes...but that'd be too easy.

Why don't you explain to me why it's not a joke?
I'm not qualified to determine whether the UK is a joke or not.

You made the assertion...I asked...you answered.
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:41 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by apolloa View Post
They were required by law to pay more, they dodged it using loopholes. How would you like it if you ran a small company and paid all your taxes, but Amazon paid next to none in your country despite trading there? Same thing.
And how could Amazon like it if Google took advantage of the loopholes and pay even less taxes for selling the same thing from the same country as Amazon?

You do understand what loopholes mean, right? Because if you do, you'd understand the loopholes are by their definition legal and it is your government who made them possible in the first place. As long as the loopholes exist, anybody's allowed to take full advantages of it and the same legal minimal taxes as everybody else.

If you want Amazon/Apple to start paying the same taxes next as your small company in your country, then you have to close all loopholes and make it fair to everybody.
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 02:41 PM   #50
markrich
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Originally Posted by mojolicious View Post
Interesting that the UK government actually have the power to do this, assuming it's at odds with EU legislation.

Presumably this means that UK-based companies selling e-services abroad will no longer be paying UK VAT on those sales? But they will be responsible for charging the correct sales tax for each one of the 28 EU states, and channeling that money to the appropriate Treasury, dependent upon where the buyer is located? I don't see the alternative: it *has* to be a reciprocal arrangement.

That'll make life fun for smaller e-businesses.
I'm not sure they will be able to do this. It'll probably be yet another example of jumping in without reading the small print and being forced to another U-Turn in a few months.
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