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Mcdevidr

macrumors 6502a
Nov 27, 2013
793
368
My Brix Pro setup

508 - for the machine
Samsung evo 120Gb ssd - 80
16gb crucial ram 1.35 - 140
Windows license - free for me as a gift, but as a student I would have paid 70.

Total would be $798 after tax. That is basically what I paid for the i7 2.3 Mac mini from BH photo.

I think the value is good for what you get. This machine is very fast, sometimes noisy. The noise seems mostly related to the gpu. I can have handbrake transcoding using one thread in the background with the CPU at 40% usage while doing other stuff e.g. Web surfing and watching a movie and have no fan noise, all this on a UHD display. But as soon as I start a game Civ V say even at 1440x900p while doing other stuff the fans kick in, while CPU usage is only at around 20-30%.
 

Fishrrman

macrumors Penryn
Feb 20, 2009
28,340
12,458
I agree with germinator's post #99 above.

Thunderbolt -is- a "going nowhere fast" technology.

There are next-to-no peripherals for it. And those that are "out there" are disproportionately expensive, for what you get.

As a drive connection technology, USB3 has won the contest, hands-down. Not that USB3 is faster -- but rather because USB3 is CHEAPER and its ubiquitous. USB3 is all over the place.

The coming USB3.1 stanadard will further render t-bolt obsolete before its time. Why by an expensive thunderbolt multi-drive box, when you can get a USB3.1 box at one-half to one-third the price that will be just as fast?

Advancements in displayport technology will usurp thunderbolt "on the display side" of things, as well.

If Apple had wanted to really promote t-bolt, they should have done so with offering a line of -affordable- t-bolt peripherals when t-bolt was introduced. They didn't.

Frankly, they blew this one.
 

Yahooligan

macrumors 6502a
Aug 7, 2011
965
114
Illinois
I agree with germinator's post #99 above.

Thunderbolt -is- a "going nowhere fast" technology.

There are next-to-no peripherals for it. And those that are "out there" are disproportionately expensive, for what you get.

As a drive connection technology, USB3 has won the contest, hands-down. Not that USB3 is faster -- but rather because USB3 is CHEAPER and its ubiquitous. USB3 is all over the place.

The coming USB3.1 stanadard will further render t-bolt obsolete before its time. Why by an expensive thunderbolt multi-drive box, when you can get a USB3.1 box at one-half to one-third the price that will be just as fast?

Advancements in displayport technology will usurp thunderbolt "on the display side" of things, as well.

If Apple had wanted to really promote t-bolt, they should have done so with offering a line of -affordable- t-bolt peripherals when t-bolt was introduced. They didn't.

Frankly, they blew this one.

There may be some products that do have a price premium because they have TB, but if you think that a USB3 device that has equivalent performance is going to be 1/3 to 1/2 the price then you're delusional, sorry. I actually DID buy a USB3.0 hardware RAID enclosure for roughly half the price of a TB RAID and guess what? It was a steaming pile of crap that at times was slower than a single HDD. I returned it and bought the Areca in my sig, not because it has TB but because it actually performs as expected.

For example, the cost of the Areca isn't because it has TB, it's because it actually performs at prosumer/professional levels. The enclosure has USB3 as well. Point is, you need to understand the purpose of TB and the devices that connect to it. If a device can't take advantage of the I/O that TB provides then there's no reason to give it TB connectivity. Consistently fast and reliable hardware isn't cheap.

Why buy a dSLR camera when you can buy a cheaper P&S? They both take pictures, right? ;)

Whether TB wins or loses is of no real consequence to me, I have what I need right now and if USB3.1 ends up taking over then I'm sure there will be a TB -> USB3.1 adapter I can buy. ;)

If TB is dead/dying then it sure seems odd that there are more, not fewer, TB devices showing up as time goes on. Huh...
 

haravikk

macrumors 65816
May 1, 2005
1,499
21
Thunderbolt -is- a "going nowhere fast" technology.
The main problem with Thunderbolt is that Intel, and possibly Apple too, have handled the licensing very badly, resulting in lengthy and costly licensing periods. This is making it harder for more Thunderbolt products to come to market, and thus less likely that computer manufacturers will include the ports at all. The result is that while there are okay products out there, the lack of competition means you're not getting great value for your money.

However, in terms of the technology it's easily better than USB, it just needs the competitive market for peripherals to actually match it. While USB 3.1 may match Thunderbolt 1 speeds, Thunderbolt 2 is already out, and I'd expect Thunderbolt 3 to actually add more channels (rather than just double up the ones that were already there) in order to start moving towards catching up with PCIe; after all, there's no real reason it couldn't eventually just match the PCIe speed of a system, it just hasn't so far, but to do so we'll need to see processors from Intel with suitably large numbers of PCIe lanes, but somehow I don't think that'll be a problem ;)

For simple plug-and-play devices USB will probably remain the favourite, but for high-bandwidth peripherals Thunderbolt has a significant advantage. While connecting a single hard-drive over USB is fine, connecting several is a bad idea as it just doesn't cope with the simultaneous traffic nearly as well. I wouldn't dream of running a four disk USB enclosure without on-board RAID anymore, as it just can't access those four disks with enough efficiency. With on-board RAID turning them into a single logical disk it can be okay, but I'd still prefer eSATA or Thunderbolt if I could use the former, or afford the latter ;)
I really wish someone would develop a Thunderbolt to eSATA adaptor cable already, I'm sick of $200, externally powered boxes being the only option on that front.
 

Yahooligan

macrumors 6502a
Aug 7, 2011
965
114
Illinois
Just to prove the TB vs USB3 point, my hardware RAID enclosure over USB3.0...

attachment.php


And the same using TB instead (TB1, not even TB2).

attachment.php


So even though USB3 has a theoretical limit of 5Gb/s (625MB/s), and even though I have a hardware RAID enclosure that presents one logical drive, USB3 performance is almost 50% slower than what USB3 should be capable of and it's notably slower than TB. The absolute only difference is that for one test I connected using a USB3 cable and for the other I connected using a TB cable. The tests were performed within minutes of each other and I made sure there was zero disk activity on the RAID before starting the tests so as to ensure there were no other variables that would impact the test.

I'm sticking by what I've said about TB.
 

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germinator

macrumors 6502
Apr 22, 2009
260
199
My Brix Pro setup

508 - for the machine
Samsung evo 120Gb ssd - 80
16gb crucial ram 1.35 - 140
Windows license - free for me as a gift, but as a student I would have paid 70.

Congratulations.
Is this the i5 version?
Could you please elaborate a bit on the noise? How loud is it?

Have you tried installing OS X?
 

venom600

macrumors 65816
Mar 23, 2003
1,296
1,099
Los Angeles, CA
I got tired of waiting and found another solution. I was at Microcenter and the guy mentioned that they had a couple of refurb 17" Macbook Pros left that they were clearancing. I did the math in my head and realized it had most of the upgrades I wanted in a Mini (better discrete graphics, better cooling, a quad core processor) and bought it on the spot for $1100. It runs 50% cooler than the Mini (it never exceeds 130 degrees, even under stress... my mini routinely hit 200+) and is much, much faster. I could not be happier with my decision.
 

Mcdevidr

macrumors 6502a
Nov 27, 2013
793
368
Congratulations.
Is this the i5 version?
Could you please elaborate a bit on the noise? How loud is it?

Have you tried installing OS X?

Yes this is the i5 2.7ghz. The noise is not noticeable in my unit until after the CPU hits more than 50% usage. On the other hand with some CPU usage and heavy graphics usage the fan gets loud. Not sure how to compare. It is louder than the i7 Mac mini when the mini is running at full blast, I'd say maybe 25-50% louder hard to judge as I don't have that machine anymore to compare them directly. Problem is not only how loud but the fan has a different sound than the minis fan that is more evident to my ear the minis even at full blast would often fade into the background the brix not so much.

It is a great little system though. I run it with the dell 24inch ultra hd display. I have to scale, but I end up with the desktop space of the 27 inch imac on a 24 inch screen that is very sharp. I have not tried installing OSX yet.
 

wwohl

macrumors regular
May 2, 2013
135
25
Just to prove the TB vs USB3 point, my hardware RAID enclosure over USB3.0...

Image

And the same using TB instead (TB1, not even TB2).

Image

So even though USB3 has a theoretical limit of 5Gb/s (625MB/s), and even though I have a hardware RAID enclosure that presents one logical drive, USB3 performance is almost 50% slower than what USB3 should be capable of and it's notably slower than TB. The absolute only difference is that for one test I connected using a USB3 cable and for the other I connected using a TB cable. The tests were performed within minutes of each other and I made sure there was zero disk activity on the RAID before starting the tests so as to ensure there were no other variables that would impact the test.

I'm sticking by what I've said about TB.

Dude, this is bull... The USB3 performed at less than its theoretical throughput... But then again, so did the TB ! Thats not 10gb and if thats multiple SSDs in Raid it should be faster than that... If its a single SSD on TB then TB did its job and maxed the drive.

At the end of the day, less than 1% of all consumers will need 500/500 read write performance from their external storage. More than likely, 99% of them won't need more than a standard HD on USB 3.

The fact is, thunderbolt is faster and will remain faster. However, its speed improvements come at staggering markups for the technology. At the end of the day, most user don't need that extra speed over USB3, the peripherals aren't available and the price is unreasonable. Everyone wants a Ferrari but most of us would be more than happy with a Z06 Vette...

And before you say that YOU need it... Were in the Mac Mini forum here... These are mostly average consumers, a few gamers and some video/photo light duty editors.. The community discussing this is not enterprise pro level pc users.

The problem with the TB argument is too many 1out of a million users on here talk up TB and make the jo-schmo user think that he needs it. That user winds up spending 100-300% more on TB technology when really he needed something much more consumer grade.

Im the average to above average consumer. I play a few games, edit photos occasionally and encode some video... I have a 2012 mac mini with a 2.6ghz i7, 16gb of ram and a 250gb samsung EVO and its more than I need.
For external storage of 500gb of movies, 100gb of pictures, 50gb of music and Time machine B/U's, I have two Seagate Backup Plus drives with 3TB 7200rpm Barracuda drives in them. They're USB 3.0 and they cost under $110 each.

This setup is more than adequate and would work for nearly every user in the mac mini thread.

Im sticking by what I said about TB. Its awesome stuff, but the people who need it already have it. The people who don't need it, are the ones asking if they need it.

Bill
 
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Yahooligan

macrumors 6502a
Aug 7, 2011
965
114
Illinois
Dude, this is bull... The USB3 performed at less than its theoretical throughput... But then again, so did the TB ! Thats not 10gb and if thats multiple SSDs in Raid it should be faster than that... If its a single SSD on TB then TB did its job and maxed the drive.

Didn't read my sig, I guess. 4x3TB 7200RPM HDD in an Areca ARC-5026 enclosure.

Defending USB3 by saying that TB didn't perform at its potential is bull, the fact is USB3 was considerably slower than TB. Period. The fact that TB was faster tells me it's the interface, not the storage, that is the bottleneck.

At the end of the day, less than 1% of all consumers will need 500/500 read write performance from their external storage. More than likely, 99% of them won't need more than a standard HD on USB 3.

Most consumers will likely get by just fine with a single USB3 HDD. That's not the point. Someone claimed TB to be useless and that USB3 is plenty. That may be true for THEIR use case or needs, but not mine. Why is this so hard for people to grasp?

The fact is, thunderbolt is faster and will remain faster. However, its speed improvements come at staggering markups for the technology. At the end of the day, most user don't need that extra speed over USB3, the peripherals aren't available and the price is unreasonable. Everyone wants a Ferrari but most of us would be more than happy with a Z06 Vette...

That "staggering" mark-up is FUD. Read my previous post. The USB3 hardware raid that wasn't quite 50% cheaper than the Areca is a horrible piece of worthless junk that would frustrate most consumers. With the Areca I'm paying for the performance and reliability, it just so happens that the performance is even better with TB.

And before you say that YOU need it... Were in the Mac Mini forum here... These are mostly average consumers, a few gamers and some video/photo light duty editors.. The community discussing this is not enterprise pro level pc users.

Perhaps not all are pro level, but to dismiss my posts as irrelevant because it doesn't apply to anyone...well...I can't be the only one here using a Mini to do more than some (most?) people expect it to be capable of. Am I not part of the Mini community? :confused: Silly me...

The problem with the TB argument is too many 1out of a million users on here talk up TB and make the jo-schmo user think that he needs it. That user winds up spending 100-300% more on TB technology when really he needed something much more consumer grade.

It's up to the user to research and determine what their needs are. It would be a disservice to the community to just dismiss things like TB or not talk about the advantages it has. People think the Mini is some little piece of slow Mac trash? Maybe it's because people like you keep trying to dumb it down and make it sound like less of a machine. ;)

Im the average to above average consumer. I play a few games, edit photos occasionally and encode some video... I have a 2012 mac mini with a 2.6ghz i7, 16gb of ram and a 250gb samsung EVO and its more than I need.
For external storage of 500gb of movies, 100gb of pictures, 50gb of music and Time machine B/U's, I have two Seagate Backup Plus drives with 3TB 7200rpm Barracuda drives in them. They're USB 3.0 and they cost under $110 each.

This setup is more than adequate and would work for nearly every user in the mac mini thread.

Personally, I prefer people to speak and think for themselves. I don't think anyone needs you speak for them. By all means, relay your usage and setup, but making assumptions and speaking for others...no thanks.

Im sticking by what I said about TB. Its awesome stuff, but the people who need it already have it. The people who don't need it, are the ones asking if they need it.

Bill

Last time I checked, I'm not telling anyone that they need it or should be using it instead of USB3. I'm providing my experience and usage with it and a couple of you keep dismissing TB as useless and being no better than USB3. That's your opinion and you have a right to it, but repeating over and over that a Mustang is as good as a Porsche will never make it true, then to tell a Porsche owner that uses their Porsche at the track to its full potential that they're wrong and that the Mustang would be a good enough alternative is just a joke.

This isn't a USB3 forum. This is a Mac Mini forum. Everything I've posted is about my Mini and how I use it. If someone feels like they need or what a similar setup, great. Now they have some info on it. It's up to them to decide if they want to spend the money on it, it's not up to you or me to tell them how to spend their money. It's our job to provide information and talk about our experiences so that they can make an educated decision.

I'm sorry that some of you feel the need to talk negatively about a technology that you don't use yourself and it's a shame that someone would have to defend their use of it. That's not how a community should work.

Have a nice day.
 

wwohl

macrumors regular
May 2, 2013
135
25

Perhaps my ranting came off confrontational, that was not the point. Ill admit that after re-reading the OP statement at the top of the page, he did seem to be claiming it worthless in some degree.

I don't think its worthless tech, i just think its out of reach and until it becomes affordable, its never gonna become popular. In the time it takes for TB to become affordable to the average consumer, USB may already be on to the next thing to bring the speed and performance up another notch. Its a tough market and USB technology has it cornered with years of technology.

I agree, the Porsche driver who stretches its legs at the track... Very supportive of that. But the porsche driver who goes red light to red light in the heard of Prius' and has no desire to use the car for its intended purpose... well that guy sucks..

Then again, I do own a 12 second mach 1 mustang :D
 

Yahooligan

macrumors 6502a
Aug 7, 2011
965
114
Illinois
Perhaps my ranting came off confrontational, that was not the point. Ill admit that after re-reading the OP statement at the top of the page, he did seem to be claiming it worthless in some degree.

I don't think its worthless tech, i just think its out of reach and until it becomes affordable, its never gonna become popular. In the time it takes for TB to become affordable to the average consumer, USB may already be on to the next thing to bring the speed and performance up another notch. Its a tough market and USB technology has it cornered with years of technology.

I agree, the Porsche driver who stretches its legs at the track... Very supportive of that. But the porsche driver who goes red light to red light in the heard of Prius' and has no desire to use the car for its intended purpose... well that guy sucks..

Then again, I do own a 12 second mach 1 mustang :D


No worries, it's all good. The future of TB isn't written yet, so if it lives on, great. If not, oh well, at least I'm able to take advantage of it now. :)

I have a track-prepped (road course) Challenger, it's surprised a number of people so far. Hehe
 

wwohl

macrumors regular
May 2, 2013
135
25
Back to the original discussion...

For the OP thats considering a mac mini... its really about what you're gonna use it for. Im not sure that were going to see a major redesign of the mac mini platform. While it may get a refresh and some design overhaul, don't expect it to be 400% faster than the current 2012 model- if it even comes.

Heres what I'm thinking... I currently own an i7 2.6ghz 2012 model with an SSD and 16gb of ram. Its more than capable of handling 99% of what I do with ease.. and I don't plan on replacing it for a while

My next computer will likely be a Hackintosh in a mini atx case... while its not the size of the mini, heres what ill be getting:
- ability to use larger and faster HDD internally with 3.5" bays and 4 SATA ports
- better fan cooling and the option to water cool
- more connectivity options for displays and peripherals
- standalone graphics performance. No longer tied to the intel 4000 integrated.
- price

All fitting inside something the size of a 4 bay hard drive enclosure.

I think the mini is a good device. If you're searching for better graphics performance or stronger CPU performance, you'll need to look to the pro lineup or build one yourself (in the OSX market)
 

tom vilsack

macrumors 68000
Nov 20, 2010
1,880
63
ladner cdn
Apple you better get that new mini built pretty fast or I might not need! You see apple after waiting and waiting I bought a asus chromebox three weeks ago (see earlier posts) as a stop gap until the new mini came in. To my surprise this stop gap is working out better then I had hoped. I'm beginning to question if I even need the new mini when and if it ever comes out! Apple your delay has also maybe cost you a possible future laptop sale,as I'm now also wondering if I need a new Macbook Air or if maybe the new Asus chromebook might also better serve my needs and wallet?

I wonder how many other sales apple is losing by this longgggggggg wait?
 

opeter

macrumors 68030
Aug 5, 2007
2,680
1,602
Slovenia
Just to prove the TB vs USB3 point, my hardware RAID enclosure over USB3.0...

So even though USB3 has a theoretical limit of 5Gb/s (625MB/s), and even though I have a hardware RAID enclosure that presents one logical drive, USB3 performance is almost 50% slower than what USB3 should be capable of and it's notably slower than TB. The absolute only difference is that for one test I connected using a USB3 cable and for the other I connected using a TB cable. The tests were performed within minutes of each other and I made sure there was zero disk activity on the RAID before starting the tests so as to ensure there were no other variables that would impact the test.

I'm sticking by what I've said about TB.

The problem with this is, that the speed difference simply isn't big enough to justify the overpriced TB over USB 3. At least for me.

And when USB 3.1 comes out, than the gap between USB 3.1 and TB2 will be even more narrow in real world tests / everyday usage.
 

Yahooligan

macrumors 6502a
Aug 7, 2011
965
114
Illinois
The problem with this is, that the speed difference simply isn't big enough to justify the overpriced TB over USB 3. At least for me.

And when USB 3.1 comes out, than the gap between USB 3.1 and TB2 will be even more narrow in real world tests / everyday usage.


Everyone keeps talking about how overpriced TB peripherals are. Can you show me a USB3-only RAID that matches or bests the performance of the Areca or Pegasus that's notably cheaper? I haven't been able to find one.
 

opeter

macrumors 68030
Aug 5, 2007
2,680
1,602
Slovenia

phositadc

macrumors 6502
Dec 9, 2012
489
50
I posted this in a different thread, but it belongs here too, since I did end up going with an alternative to the Mac Mini for now.

The fact that Apple just did an incremental upgrade to the Macbook Air seems to confirm that Apple doesn't really care about the Mini any more. Anyways, my post from the other thread, slightly modified:

For about $850, I built a unit that's about 25-35% faster than the fastest late-2012 Mac Mini currently available (using Geekbench scores as a proxy). Everything works fine. Having to deal with hardware driver installation is a bit of an annoyance, but it's really no big deal, and it's actually pretty simple to get everything working perfectly.

I used an Antec ISK110 case, so it's a bit larger than a Mac Mini, but still plenty sleek and small for the vast majority of people. And I used a Noctua NH-L9i CPU cooler, which runs at an extremely low RPM at low loads and is nearly silent. At high loads though, it is louder than my old Mac Mini, but not annoyingly so.

Will I get a new Mac Mini when it is finally released (if ever)? Quite possibly. But for now, I wanted a fast computer, I didn't want to feel ripped off paying full price for hardware that's 2 years old, and I personally don't really have any problem with Windows (I use it at work, after all).

To each his own, but if the new Mini doesn't come out soon, I think more people should start pursuing alternatives such as this. It makes no sense to be tied at the hip to Apple and OSX. If you are... you end up buying 2012 hardware in mid-2014 and not even getting a discount!
 

Crosscreek

macrumors 68030
Nov 19, 2013
2,892
5,793
Margarittaville
I posted this in a different thread, but it belongs here too, since I did end up going with an alternative to the Mac Mini for now.

The fact that Apple just did an incremental upgrade to the Macbook Air seems to confirm that Apple doesn't really care about the Mini any more. Anyways, my post from the other thread, slightly modified:

For about $850, I built a unit that's about 25-35% faster than the fastest late-2012 Mac Mini currently available (using Geekbench scores as a proxy). Everything works fine. Having to deal with hardware driver installation is a bit of an annoyance, but it's really no big deal, and it's actually pretty simple to get everything working perfectly.

I used an Antec ISK110 case, so it's a bit larger than a Mac Mini, but still plenty sleek and small for the vast majority of people. And I used a Noctua NH-L9i CPU cooler, which runs at an extremely low RPM at low loads and is nearly silent. At high loads though, it is louder than my old Mac Mini, but not annoyingly so.

Will I get a new Mac Mini when it is finally released (if ever)? Quite possibly. But for now, I wanted a fast computer, I didn't want to feel ripped off paying full price for hardware that's 2 years old, and I personally don't really have any problem with Windows (I use it at work, after all).

To each his own, but if the new Mini doesn't come out soon, I think more people should start pursuing alternatives such as this. It makes no sense to be tied at the hip to Apple and OSX. If you are... you end up buying 2012 hardware in mid-2014 and not even getting a discount!

yeah and every software update you have to worry about your machine working

Meah :eek:
 

phositadc

macrumors 6502
Dec 9, 2012
489
50
yeah and every software update you have to worry about your machine working

Meah :eek:

Huh? This is not a hackintosh. I'm just running Windows 8.1--a regular old PC. I've never had any problems with software updates breaking things. I think that's really only a concern when you are running OSX on a hackintosh.
 

Crosscreek

macrumors 68030
Nov 19, 2013
2,892
5,793
Margarittaville
Huh? This is not a hackintosh. I'm just running Windows 8.1--a regular old PC. I've never had any problems with software updates breaking things. I think that's really only a concern when you are running OSX on a hackintosh.

I thought you was talking Hackintosh. My mistake.
 

Yahooligan

macrumors 6502a
Aug 7, 2011
965
114
Illinois

Notice I said "matches or bests" the performance of the Areca or Pegasus. Those do neither, in fact every test I've seen for their various 4-bay USB3 RAID enclosures show they have maybe 1/4 the performance of the Areca and Pegasus units. They barely break the 100MB/s mark and they run from about $170 to $400 depending on the model. 1/4 to 1/2 the price for 1/4 the performance...that's somewhat fair, but still doesn't compare.

As I said, with Areca and Pegasus people are paying for the reliability and performance of the hardware as a whole. Even using USB3.0 these units kill everything else I've come across in that niche, so to say their price is because they have TB seems like an excuse and incorrect conclusion from the anti-TB crowd.
 

dbanderson1

macrumors member
Oct 15, 2013
48
0
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