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MacTech68

macrumors 68020
Mar 16, 2008
2,393
209
Australia, Perth
Some update on my plus.

So, it's working the way I can turn it on. Actually no special lessons on that. As His Majesty MacTech68 said before - some of the tracks were in a pretty bad condition due to humidity and so. What was done:
1) All the electronic parts on video/analog boards checked - test passed and believe or not all seem to be fine
2) Minor yoke adjustment - didn't realy have much of the impact
3) Minor tracks cleanup (analog board) - only some of them got bad and those were cleaned, optically there is not all of that much of a difference, now all tracks pass the test with one restriction - it doesn't really mean that they may not go bad again. For such all the board would have to be totally reworked, which (in expert's opinion) did not make much sense.

The plus is back home and there is still much to do. I'll basically tell all of the story maybe y'all would have some suggestions. Guess would be better that way than just do sth bad to it:)
...
This much for now:) I'll post pictures of warmed up working plus with system 1.1 on it (off the external drive) later.

OK. I can see you've had a lot of "fun" swapping the drives around and are determined to get it functional.

What I might get you to do, is to re-post the second half of your post (referring to the floppy drives) here:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1354182/

There are some starting points there too.

As for the shaky video, I see one of 7 possibilities

1. A failing electrolytic capacitor which, once it is warm, behaves normally.

2. A dry/cracked solder joint

3. poor connectivity at the yoke connector itself

4. out of adjustment +5 volt rail.

5. a failing - but not yet failed - Flyback transformer

6. poor earth at the CRT mounting ear.

7. oxidization on adjustment potentiometers.

To test #2 and #3, you can try tapping the board with a suitable plastic "prodder". The OUTER plastic tube of a Bic Cristal would suffice - remove the innards of the pen first. You can use the tube to wiggle the yoke cables and tap/knock the solder side of the analog board whilst observing the screen.

Obviously, adjusting the +5 volt rail should be easy enough. Follow the directions in the pdf I posted earlier.

If that STILL doesn't reveal the problem, see if allowing the board to cool (a few hours in a cool area) causes the problem to occur and disappears once warm again. If it's reproducible every time, then this should be #1, and I would suspect the large 3.9uf capacitor on the top edge of the analog board, next to the horizontal width coil. These caps were later replaced by an 'Electronic Concepts' Low ESR Metalized Polycarbonate axial special order 5MC series capacitor P/N 5MC-9931K :

http://www.ecicaps.com/capacitors/f...carbonate-switch-mode-power-supply-capacitors

though a suitable replacement Low ESR, non-polar, 100V, 105degC, poly capacitor should be easily locatable by your expert if required.

As for #5, there isn't much you can do other than replace the transformer. they are resin potted, which means you can't repair them when they begin arcing internally.

For #6, which is rare but did occur on very early Mac 128Ks, there is a black wire which fastens to the top left mounting ear (viewed from the rear) of the CRT with a crimped eyelet. If the screw holding this is loose or (in the case of some early CRTs) an overspray paint covered the metal ear, this can cause an intermitted jitter and brightness. Cleaning and re-fitting this can help. DON'T OVERTIGHTEN the screw, as you can cross the thread in the front panel, which will make tightening impossible.

For #7 tapping the adjustment pots with the plastic prodding tool may reveal these as a cause.

That about sums up what I'm thinking, although there may be other 'unknown' causes, possibly even involving the motherboard. Your chosen expert may be able to assist with the above points if you're not feeling adventurous. :)

As always, take great care as these analog boards have numerous LEATHAL VOLTAGES exposed on the solder and component side.
 
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adalbert123

macrumors newbie
Jan 1, 2012
10
0
Appreciate. This was very helpful. And it seems like that plus of mine is going to give me still plenty of fun and quality time:)
It's interesting though that it works perfect with stable screen with external drive. But I'm bringing the expert back. Will update when some news arrive.
Regards
 

accessibleMAC

macrumors newbie
Mar 6, 2014
2
0
transistor Q12?

Hello, cheers from Italy.

...I hope you solved all...
I see you have same model I have.
I need instead some help: i opened my mac plus and i found the transistor Q12 (under ther transformator) broken... Now i am not able to read the model to find a spare part, and I own not the electrical scheme of the analogue board. Can you please indicate to me the model of this component (e.g. BC108) looking at the analogue board of your mac plus?

Thank you in advance.
Tom
 

MacTech68

macrumors 68020
Mar 16, 2008
2,393
209
Australia, Perth
Hello, cheers from Italy.

...I hope you solved all...
I see you have same model I have.
I need instead some help: i opened my mac plus and i found the transistor Q12 (under ther transformator) broken... Now i am not able to read the model to find a spare part, and I own not the electrical scheme of the analogue board. Can you please indicate to me the model of this component (e.g. BC108) looking at the analogue board of your mac plus?

Thank you in advance.
Tom

You have a 240/120V capable version, often referred to as an "International" analog board. They can be changed from 240V to 120V via a jumper.

The power supply circuit is a little different on the "International" version, so don't get confused by schematics for the 120V Only version.

Q12 is an SCR. It's a E0102YA and should be equivalent to a NTE5400 or 2N5060.

In any case, there is probably more than just this component failed.
 

accessibleMAC

macrumors newbie
Mar 6, 2014
2
0
You have a 240/120V capable version, often referred to as an "International" analog board. They can be changed from 240V to 120V via a jumper.

The power supply circuit is a little different on the "International" version, so don't get confused by schematics for the 120V Only version.

Q12 is an SCR. It's a E0102YA and should be equivalent to a NTE5400 or 2N5060.

In any case, there is probably more than just this component failed.

Thank you for the answer!
Where might I found the electric scheme for the several mac plus models?
My analogue board report the INTERNATIONAL print on the components side.
I found only this component broken with not traces of fire/burns and the "t1 6a 250v" fuse broken. I have no idea about other failed components.

Sincerely,

Tom
 

MacTech68

macrumors 68020
Mar 16, 2008
2,393
209
Australia, Perth
Thank you for the answer!
Where might I found the electric scheme for the several mac plus models?
My analogue board report the INTERNATIONAL print on the components side.
I found only this component broken with not traces of fire/burns and the "t1 6a 250v" fuse broken. I have no idea about other failed components.

Sincerely,

Tom

I don't have any reference for the International version.

What I can point you to is the 120V only version, but the component numbers are different. For example, your Q12 is actually Q10 in the 120V version.

The fuse is a 1.6 Amp 250volt DELAY type m205 fuse.

Replacing only Q12 and the fuse will most likely destroy MORE components. If you've not had experience repairing switch mode power supplies, I'd suggest getting expert help locally.

Along with that SCR and fuse, the main switching transistor, bridge diodes, and some other components associated with the SCR are probably also shot.

It sounds like the main switching transistor shorted, but before the fuse blew it took out a number of other components.

Here is the 120V ONLY schematic:

http://museum.dyne.org/gallery/apple/stuff/mac/andreas.kann/Mac_Power.GIF
 

LouisGermany

macrumors newbie
Apr 14, 2014
3
0
If the machine attempts to boot and the screen is entirely dark, there are two possibilities:

1. The brightness control under the front edge is turned all the way down, or

2. A dry and cracked solder joint on the video & power connector which is approximately in the center of the "Power/Sweep" or "Analog Board".

Give the machine a thump on the left side (when viewed from the front) whilst it's running and see if the picture intermittently flashes up. If it does, it will be a simple re-soldering job.

Hey everyone and greetings from Germany,

I've bought a Mac Plus about half a year ago and everything worked fine. But a few days ago as I tried to boot it up, I the display kept black. It seems to be the same problem as Daniel had at the very beginning of this thread, but in my case I wasn't able to solve it with a thump on the left side.
It stays black but sometimes it flashes up as MacTech68 described it. I was even able to see the 'Sad Mac' Icon one time.
So what can I do to solve this problem?
Like Daniel, I'm quite new in this area and I don't have the skills to do complex repair work on my own.

I'm really looking foreword to your answers,

Louis

P.S.: I really tried to write a good text and I hope it worked ;)
 

MacTech68

macrumors 68020
Mar 16, 2008
2,393
209
Australia, Perth
Hey everyone and greetings from Germany,

I've bought a Mac Plus about half a year ago and everything worked fine. But a few days ago as I tried to boot it up, I the display kept black. It seems to be the same problem as Daniel had at the very beginning of this thread, but in my case I wasn't able to solve it with a thump on the left side.
It stays black but sometimes it flashes up as MacTech68 described it. I was even able to see the 'Sad Mac' Icon one time.
So what can I do to solve this problem?
Like Daniel, I'm quite new in this area and I don't have the skills to do complex repair work on my own.

I'm really looking foreword to your answers,

Louis

P.S.: I really tried to write a good text and I hope it worked ;)

I'd be pretty certain that you do indeed have the same problem with the video pin on the video connector - it was a very common problem.

All the usual warnings apply with regards to opening and servicing one of these machines.

If you read through this thread - as you appear to have done - you will find tips regarding resoldering the video connector. This one in particular:

Yup, just remember that there is a small trap with that video connector.

It's keyed by having one pin removed (2nd pin location from one end). this leaves the video pin (often the one that causes this fault) sitting out by itself and is often missed when these boards are re-worked. I saw quite a few like this.

:)

If you're not happy doing this yourself, please seek somebody local who may be able to assist, such as a TV repair tech (a dying race indeed).

:)
 

LouisGermany

macrumors newbie
Apr 14, 2014
3
0
Thanks for your quick answer.

I think I'll be able to try to repair it next week. (First I'll have to build an opening tool because its the first time that I do this :))

Do you know an instruction for repairing this connector, best with pictures ...
I've seen this one in the thread: http://www.amazon.com/Macintosh-Repa.../dp/0672484528 but unluckily shipping to Germany isn't available and here it costs twice as much :(
 

MacTech68

macrumors 68020
Mar 16, 2008
2,393
209
Australia, Perth
Thanks for your quick answer.

I think I'll be able to try to repair it next week. (First I'll have to build an opening tool because its the first time that I do this :))

Do you know an instruction for repairing this connector, best with pictures ...
I've seen this one in the thread: http://www.amazon.com/Macintosh-Repa.../dp/0672484528 but unluckily shipping to Germany isn't available and here it costs twice as much :(

I can't make any such recommendations for that particular book (though is is a great resource), but the pdf below is a good starting point: (with thanks to 68Kmla)

https://68kmla.org/files/classicmac2.pdf
 

LouisGermany

macrumors newbie
Apr 14, 2014
3
0
Great Thanks for the link! :)
That's exactly what I was looking for. So I'll have something to read now.;)
I'll let you know if it worked.
 

Warp2063

macrumors newbie
May 20, 2014
7
0
I recently obtained a Macintosh Plus. My problem is similar to the one Adalbert described. Turning on the system produces a completely black screen and repeating clicking sounds that occur about every half second. Some of the clicking comes from the floppy drive, while I've assumed that the rest came from the speaker. From what I can tell, the case has been opened before - three of the five screws were missing, and it looks like someone might have attempted to solder the yoke connector, as the solder is a slightly different color and there are scorch marks around the four points. I did some prodding with a multimeter, and as far as I can tell, each of the pins for each connector is solid... or at least my testing seemed to indicate that. The capacitors appear normal to me, and except for what looks like corrosion on the top metal piece of the flyback transformer, everything looks visually okay. It's not even that dusty inside. Every once in a while, after adjusting connectors, I'll be treated to at least a partial, if not complete, Mac chime, but there's still nothing that appears on the screen. I'm not sure where to focus my attention. I'd really like to restore it if possible.
 

MacTech68

macrumors 68020
Mar 16, 2008
2,393
209
Australia, Perth
...Every once in a while, after adjusting connectors, I'll be treated to at least a partial, if not complete, Mac chime, but there's still nothing that appears on the screen. I'm not sure where to focus my attention. I'd really like to restore it if possible.

I'd be looking at resoldering the video/power connector on the power/sweep board. As noted earlier, make sure you also resolder the first pin on that connector which is actually the video pin.
 

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Warp2063

macrumors newbie
May 20, 2014
7
0
I'd be looking at resoldering the video/power connector on the power/sweep board. As noted earlier, make sure you also resolder the first pin on that connector which is actually the video pin.

I don't think the solder joints are the problem. I've done quite a bit of probing with a multimeter along and on either side of the video/power cable as well as the yoke cable, and the connections *seem* good. I'd rather not start soldering unless I absolutely must. Besides, while I can't be sure due to lack of experience with these machines, I think there are other problems afoot.

1 - Cyclic reset every ~0.5 seconds? (Symptom: About every half second, the floppy drive pulses and the speaker clicks.) I'd suspect that this wouldn't be due to a simple faulty solder joint. As one of the earlier posts mentioned, the clicking could be due to a short in the switched power supply. (I do suspect I ran into several pins during my multimeter tests that seemed to ring when a neighbor was touched, too - I'll have to recheck that. I don't know if there are any that would do that normally.) From what I can tell, neither the reset nor the interrupt are pressed.

2 - The screen doesn't even seem to glow in the slightest. I don't know if it's just too dim for me to notice, or if it's something else. Is there some way I could check? Rotating the brightness knob on the front doesn't seem to make a difference. Maybe I should try in the dark. On a functional screen, would clockwise dim it and counterclockwise brighten it, or would it be the opposite?
 

MacTech68

macrumors 68020
Mar 16, 2008
2,393
209
Australia, Perth
I don't think the solder joints are the problem....

OK, here's my reasoning:

Given that you say it occasionally chimes, a faulty component causing a short is not likely.

Broken/cracked solder joints on the power/video connector can cause a pulsing/ticking machine and a loss of the video signal causing a black screen.

However, you might want to try checking and adjusting the +5volt rail using pin 6 of the power/video cable and the chassis whilst adjusting the "Voltage" potentiometer. Pin 6 is the blue wire.
 

tdiaz

macrumors 6502
Feb 7, 2006
477
73
It's amazing how much hassle that connector can cause, and to many, give the appearance of "the solder is fine, it's not that.".

It never hurts to go over that thing.
 

Warp2063

macrumors newbie
May 20, 2014
7
0
OK, here's my reasoning:

Given that you say it occasionally chimes, a faulty component causing a short is not likely.

Broken/cracked solder joints on the power/video connector can cause a pulsing/ticking machine and a loss of the video signal causing a black screen.

However, you might want to try checking and adjusting the +5volt rail using pin 6 of the power/video cable and the chassis whilst adjusting the "Voltage" potentiometer. Pin 6 is the blue wire.

Someone performed the solder joint maintenance before I got it. The joints were solid. But per your and tdiaz' suggestion, I did it again. Before I did, however, I ran some tests with my multimeter. Pins 8 and 9 complete a circuit. 6 and 7 seem to complete a circuit momentarily. I don't know if this is normal. After I resoldered all of those joints, I got the same test results. I even checked at multiple points along the power/sweep board pathways. There are no shorts inside the cable itself or at the motherboard end.

So, I need to know if those chimes I was hearing from my multimeter are normal. If not, I need suggestions as to what might be causing them.

Furthermore, I need more information for adjusting the +5v rail - I've heard that this can be dangerous to the Mac as it's linked to the 12v rail? While I can follow a PCB trace and test for continuity, I don't have much experience with good practice when adjusting power levels. I also don't know what location I should be comparing the blue wire to.

The Mac startup chimes were very rare - I was never able to find a correlating pattern between what I touched and when a chime or partial chime would occur.
 

MacTech68

macrumors 68020
Mar 16, 2008
2,393
209
Australia, Perth
I'll come back to some of the questions you've asked, but for now, try un-plugging the floppy drive cable (with power off) and try again.

Report any change.

As you can probably appreciate, it is difficult to diagnose via the internet, however, I am happy to continue if you are.

The thing that I keep returning to is the fact that the fault is NOT permanent. You might want to check continuity on each pin of the 13 wire cable that goes from the motherboard to the analog board. I've seen the 'wiper' inside this socket (either end) get pushed back such that it no longer makes contact.

Any chance of some pics of your analog board? Maybe us old techs can spot something visually.
 

Warp2063

macrumors newbie
May 20, 2014
7
0
I'll come back to some of the questions you've asked, but for now, try un-plugging the floppy drive cable (with power off) and try again.

The thing that I keep returning to is the fact that the fault is NOT permanent. You might want to check continuity on each pin of the 13 wire cable that goes from the motherboard to the analog board. I've seen the 'wiper' inside this socket (either end) get pushed back such that it no longer makes contact.

I've done the floppy cable one before - The only change is that instead of both the speaker and the floppy drive clicking every half second, only the speaker clicks.

I've checked continuity of the cable with my multimeter separately and with it in-circuit. Everything seems to be making good contact.

13-pin cable? The only cable that connects the analog board to the motherboard has 10 pins.

I'll have to take some new pictures of the board. Give me a few minutes.

I'd really appreciate my questions being answered. I'm not an electronics expert, especially with Macintoshes this old, but I do have some experience, and I'm trying to ask the right questions.
 

Warp2063

macrumors newbie
May 20, 2014
7
0
Any chance of some pics of your analog board? Maybe us old techs can spot something visually.

Here's an imgur gallery. Just a warning: the pictures are all pretty hi-res, and there're a lot of them.

http://imgur.com/a/dyn1M

I tried to focus on things that are either common failure points or things that I felt looked strange, as well as a few general shots.

I also apologize for my snippiness - I'm very anxious to get this Mac working if I can, and I'm working under some time constraints, so I'm trying to get it done as quickly as possible. It helps to get as much information, expertise, and as many questions answered as possible through each post - I've already looked at guides about how to perform repairs, but what I need is expertise on troubleshooting and narrowing down the potential points of failure. I don't want to perform surgery where none is required.

That being said, I'm appreciative of whatever you can tell me, and I'm especially interested in knowing about the pins I asked about before and how to test the voltage you suggested adjusting. I really wish I had a second, working machine, so that I could run comparisons between the two, but this is the first classic Macintosh I've ever had open to me.
 
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MacTech68

macrumors 68020
Mar 16, 2008
2,393
209
Australia, Perth
Oh. It seems that you are missing the Horizontal Output Transistor and it's heatsink. (I'm assuming you didn't remove it).

The attached pic is what you SHOULD see.

This is pretty bad news. Since you'd need to source one AND a heatsink AND we don't know why it was removed.

oh, and apologies - I don't know why I said 13 pin. :( You are correct, it has 10 pins (in 11pin spaces)
 

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Warp2063

macrumors newbie
May 20, 2014
7
0
That... is extraordinarily unfortunate. I didn't know to look for one, and never realized that something was missing from there. Now that you point it out, it's quite obvious.

Well...... I would still like to get this machine back online if possible, but I don't know how I'd go about sourcing a replacement part. And as you said, we don't know if there's anything else wrong. What would you recommend? Even if I do get it going, I still lack a keyboard, mouse, or 800k disks for it. I was preparing myself to find an adapter solution for the keyboard and mouse for the meantime, and I do have some mid-nineties Macs that I believe could write 800k disks if I obtained a few.

I was lucky to obtain this Mac - I found it in a university's junk pile. (A note: Other computers were in the junk pile, and random components had been pulled from them as well. I can only hope that the component was pulled for some need, rather than the machine's being dead. To be fair, though, it was usually the other computers' processors that were pulled.) A quick peek on eBay shows that I'd be spending hundreds for one otherwise. I can afford to spend a little bit of money on restoring it to a functional status, if that's indeed possible, but not to replace it. What do you think? Is it worth it to try to proceed? And if so, how should I?


Edit: I found what appears to be a replacement part for the transistor, but I still need to figure out what to do for the heat sink and how to attach it. http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/BU/BU406.pdf
 
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MacTech68

macrumors 68020
Mar 16, 2008
2,393
209
Australia, Perth
...I would still like to get this machine back online if possible, but I don't know how I'd go about sourcing a replacement part. And as you said, we don't know if there's anything else wrong. What would you recommend?... I can afford to spend a little bit of money on restoring it to a functional status, if that's indeed possible, but not to replace it. What do you think? Is it worth it to try to proceed? And if so, how should I?...

Well, it's a tough call. That particular part (when it fails) can be a sure sign that the Line Output Transformer (LOPT) is shorted/failed. That's the large part with the red fly-lead and anode cap that attaches to the side of the tube.

So, if we said that somebody identified the BU406 as faulty, and was sourcing one when it was decided to chuck the machine, then we might assume the LOPT is shot too. :(

Can these parts be replaced? Yes.

LOPTs seem to be available via eBay,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121089795069

and you certainly should be able to find a BU406 or better yet, a BU406D.

As for the heatsink, I've come across a 6025DG by Aavid Thermalloy which should fit and MIGHT do the job, but you'll need to purchase heat-sink compound/grease for good thermal transfer. (and a small, short nut & bolt to attach the BU406)

http://www.newark.com/aavid-thermalloy/6025dg/heat-sink/dp/45M6138

You'll need to factor all these and extra costs, such as your mouse, keyboard, cables, floppies etc, before deciding to go ahead. There is a chance that the LOPT is ok, but you risk destroying a BU406 to find out. PLUS - we don't know what other faults the board may have.
 
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Warp2063

macrumors newbie
May 20, 2014
7
0
You'll need to factor all these and extra costs, such as your mouse, keyboard, cables, floppies etc, before deciding to go ahead. There is a chance that the LOPT is ok, but you risk destroying a BU406 to find out. PLUS - we don't know what other faults the board may have.

Well, after some research and some scrounging around my home (thank goodness for pack rat attitudes), this is what I've come up with:

-At least one, if not several 800K floppy disks
-Macintosh LC 575 for reading 1.4M floppy disks and writing 800K floppies
-USB 1.4M floppy drive for internet-connected computers
-Heat sink that seems to match the one linked to me and fits in the space
-Arctic Silver thermal compound from a previous PC build
-Tiny PC hard drive mount screw

I still lack:

-BU406 transistor
-Tiny nut
-Mac Plus keyboard and mouse

---

Transistors are cheap. Depending on the site, I'm looking at about eighty cents per BU406, so I could pick up a few in case of horrible accidents. I'm struggling to find a BU406D per your recommendation, though. Are they obsolete or discontinued? How do they differ? Another concern is that the diagram I'm looking at calls for one capable of 10 Amps, although the only amperage markings I can find for the BU406 say 7 Amps.

The tiny nut... still working on that.

As for the keyboard and mouse, they'll quite possibly be the most expensive part of the endeavor. Right now, though, I'm trying to contact the individual who created a Mac Keyboard Interface. If I can obtain or build one, it'll hold me over until I can actually find or buy a proper keyboard and mouse.

I'm mostly sure that the disks I've found are 800K... a quick bout of mental arithmetic placed the few disks I tested at about 800K when I totaled the used space and the free space together. If I was feeling more adventurous at the moment, I believe I have a working Ethernet adapter for one of my Performa 6100 series machines - maybe I could get it online for file transfers.

So... this feels quite possible, even with the large number of unknowns. I'm prepared to buy a replacement flyback transformer if I need to, plus any other smaller components. I'd just like to hear back about the BU406, BU406D, and keyboard/mouse adapter before I proceed.

I wonder if I should be using a different thread for this, as I'm covering a variety of topics - not just screen repair.
 

MacTech68

macrumors 68020
Mar 16, 2008
2,393
209
Australia, Perth
Transistors are cheap. Depending on the site, I'm looking at about eighty cents per BU406, so I could pick up a few in case of horrible accidents. I'm struggling to find a BU406D per your recommendation, though. Are they obsolete or discontinued? How do they differ? Another concern is that the diagram I'm looking at calls for one capable of 10 Amps, although the only amperage markings I can find for the BU406 say 7 Amps.

The BU406D is the same as the BU406 except that the "D" has an internal damper diode. These were used to dampen out the effect of the Line Output Transformer producing current as the magnetic fields collapse during a turn-off cycle. It should be a slightly better choice than the BU406.

Looking on eBay, There are a number of BU406D's listed. Some unfortunate experiences tell me to avoid buying from countries known to counterfeit - I assume you'll know which ones. Sure, they're a few dollars more so it's up to you. Apple originally used a BU406 so I have no problem with you using one.

The difference in the rating (Maximum Collector Current) is that one is the constant 7Amp rating and the other is the pulsed 10Amp rating.
 
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