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Moderator
Staff member
Dec 7, 2002
20,651
4,053
New Zealand
Instead of coming up with a completely new system, why not integrate PayWave or something similar? That way it'll work with retailers' existing systems. I don't want to see another Passbook (I don't know about in the US, but in NZ there is only one entry in "Apps for Passbook" and it only works in Australia).

Until you're standing in line in a shop and can't pay because their internet-access broke down.

Existing terminals cache the transaction and handle it when the connection comes back up. It's certainly doable.
 

ArtOfWarfare

macrumors G3
Nov 26, 2007
9,567
6,073
I see what you did there!

HA! I didn't even do that on purpose. I was really thinking along the lines of driver'a licenses, for driving motor vehicles. Most people need their license with them most days for that reason. Flying... I'd imagine most people fly twice a year (once out, once in. An annual round trip). So I wouldn't need my license or ID all the time for that.
 

Stella

macrumors G3
Apr 21, 2003
8,838
6,341
Canada
I'm too looking forward to this and will happen in the West. Some Asian countries already support payment via phone.

Whats the point? Pure convenience.

Using Passbook you can already pay for some items, i.e., coffee via gift cards. So, we are going in the right direction.


Instead of Apple going via retailers, wouldn't it be easier to go via Credit card companies and banks / existing payment mechanisms, i.e., interact in Canada?

Unfortunately Apple are making it more difficult for themselves because they want control.


Until you're standing in line in a shop and can't pay because their internet-access broke down.

Any difference to their existing payment link being broken?
 
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HobeSoundDarryl

macrumors G5
Whats the point? Pure convenience.

No, the point is security. Think it through…

How it works now: a complete stranger takes a piece of plastic you hand them and runs it through a machine, often out of your sight. Then, they bring you a piece of paper and you sign it to approve the transaction. You've just handed a stranger your personal credit card number, the security ID on back and given them a signature. Over the course of a month, you might do this what? 10 times? 20 times? 50 times? More?

How it could work: you never hand over anything to make a purchase. You (yourself) use an app on your iDevice that says you want to pay someone for something. You punch in the total amount to pay them. Your password or thumbprint represents the signature. Money changes hands. Stranger doesn't possess your account number, pin or signature but the same transaction gets done.

THAT's the point. The existing system relies on a big layer of trust. You are trusting that total strangers in often low-paying jobs will not decide to take the information you hand them and make a few purchases for themselves. You've given them all they need to do so and you do it over and over with countless strangers during the course of a month or year.

The alternative "hides" those key bits of information that makes theft by this method relatively easy without significantly changing people's ability to buy & sell. By hiding such info, the ability for the average Joe to commit theft by this method is made much more complicated.

Is it foolproof? No. But it is much better than the current method. Along with hiding the crucial bits of info, the same app can also alert you whenever transactions are being made so you could catch any attempts to charge to your account in real time. As is now, you often find out about such actions days or weeks later, often when the bill shows up and has 2 tickets to Hawaii or other surprises on it.

Why we don't see this as a paramount issue is that the bank typically makes up for the theft by just eating it. You dispute the charge, they can't prove you charged it, so they take the hit. What they would like is to stop taking the hit and instead shift that to us consumers. However, if they did that with the system as is, not only would there be huge backlash but it might make many of us stop using credit cards. They don't want that. So they're moving down this path of shifting the model from pieces of plastic to hiding the key info via mobile payments.
 

arjo

macrumors member
Jul 17, 2011
31
0
Philadelphia
I guess I'm a little confused as to why Apple is wanting to enter this market. There are a few well-established systems for this already (Square, Venmo) and a ton of other, smaller players. What's the advantage of developing a proprietary system when they could try to buy out one of the established players and not only get the tech, but the existing customer base?
 

Stella

macrumors G3
Apr 21, 2003
8,838
6,341
Canada
Big $. Apple will require 30% of all transactions just like they do for iTunes and App Store.

30%? Dead on arrival.

They will probably charge some percentage, and would need to be competitive with existing payment processors.

In practice, yes. I have to carry a wallet now; and given that, I always have $40-100 in it for emergencies, even though I pay close to 100% by card.

OK, so you'll still carry around the same amount of money if you were able to pay with your phone

I don't see the difference.
 
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Dec1968

macrumors newbie
May 30, 2014
1
0
I still don't see the point of all this. Is it faster, easier, more secure? Am I the only person left who wants their phone to be a phone and their wallet to be their wallet? Are plastic credit cards just too big and heavy to carry around anymore?

Cash back is the biggest scam ever. You get a percent or three discount on purchases, but they charge vendors 5%. By incentivizing you to use the card, Amex gets to skim more off of the vendors profits. It would be in the vendor's interest to give you a 4% discount for using cash, but differential pricing is forbidden by most vendor agreements.

Leaches on the free market...

Perhaps you don't understand the rate structure. Where did you come up with 5%? Are you an existing card acceptor that is being charged 5%?

Maybe you should change processors. Sounds like you're being ripped off. That's exorbitant.
 

arjo

macrumors member
Jul 17, 2011
31
0
Philadelphia
Big $. Apple will require 30% of all transactions just like they do for iTunes and App Store.

Right, but as a business, why would you choose Apple's new and proprietary system over one that's already well-established and doesn't take a 30% cut? Regardless of how convenient it is, I doubt most consumers will be okay with taking a 30% price increase passed on to them (and it will be passed on to the consumer... no way is any business going to eat that fee)
 

Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
8,925
11,508
how do gas station get away with charging 10 cents more per gallon with a credit card then? the way it was explained to me is that the credit card price is the actual price and they are giving you a discount if you pay cash. That way they can't say it's extra for a credit card its just that it is less if you pay cash.

I'm not entirely sure. It's against most of the vendor agreements I've read, and I've only seen it practiced on an individual basis (I've never seen Shell or Macy's advertise it nationwide).

I don't know if some gas stations get away with the cash discount because of a careful reading of the law or because they're too small to get caught.

The law varies state by state, but generally they may only advertise and list the higher credit card price.

This probably explains why credit cards tend to offer higher cash back rates on gas though-- customers who are faced with the true cost of using the card tend to choose cash.

Perhaps you don't understand the rate structure. Where did you come up with 5%? Are you an existing card acceptor that is being charged 5%?

Maybe you should change processors. Sounds like you're being ripped off. That's exorbitant.
I guess I'm not sure what your point is here-- are you suggesting these rewards cards are refunding more than they're taking in fees?
 
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arjo

macrumors member
Jul 17, 2011
31
0
Philadelphia
I'm not entirely sure. It's against most of the vendor agreements I've read, and I've only seen it practiced on an individual basis (I've never seen Shell or Macy's advertise it nationwide).

I don't know if some gas stations get away with the cash discount because of a careful reading of the law or because they're too small to get caught.

The law varies state by state, but generally they may only advertise and list the higher credit card price.

This probably explains why credit cards tend to offer higher cash back rates on gas though-- customers who are faced with the true cost of using the card tend to choose cash.

Offering discounts on cash transactions is perfectly legitimate, but deliberately up-charging for credit or debit transactions is illegal.

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2013/pub/chap_739.htm#sec_42-133ff

Nothing in this section shall prohibit any seller from offering a discount to a buyer to induce such buyer to pay by cash, debit card, check or similar means rather than by credit card. In furtherance of the legislative findings contained in section 42-133j, no existing or future contract or agreement shall prohibit a gasoline retailer or distributor from offering a discount to a buyer based upon the method of payment by such buyer for such gasoline. Any provision in such contract or agreement prohibiting such retailer or distributor from offering such discount is void and without effect as contrary to public policy.

The "higher" price you see at gas stations is the full retail price; the "lower" price is a discount offered by that particular establishment to incentivize customers to make cash transactions.
 

Ray Brady

macrumors 6502
Dec 21, 2011
296
255
I guess I'm not sure what your point is here-- are you suggesting these rewards cards are refunding more than they're taking in fees?

I think he's saying your 5% estimate is too high. Amex merchant fees range between 2.5-3.5%, depending on the services being sold.
 

jaymzuk

macrumors regular
Jun 1, 2012
222
46
'Tap to tell Apple every store you shop at, and when'

Perfect business move, as they'll obviously get a cut of the payment, but the move to services is very Google-like in it's ability to accumulate vast amounts of data.

Location data + Shopping habit data = Advertiser's dream
 

Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
8,925
11,508
Offering discounts on cash transactions is perfectly legitimate, but deliberately up-charging for credit or debit transactions is illegal.

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2013/pub/chap_739.htm#sec_42-133ff
As I said, it varies state by state. You linked to the Connecticut law, which is different from the laws you're under in Pennsylvania, for example.

Complicated stuff. Intentionally so.
I think he's saying your 5% estimate is too high. Amex merchant fees range between 2.5-3.5%, depending on the services being sold.
That doesn't really change my point which is that they're encouraging you to use the card by giving you a kickback, but then charge the merchant a higher fee. It appears cheaper to you than cash because you get the discount, but it appears more expensive to the merchant than cash because they have to pay the fee. The processor skims the difference.

The incentives are scrambled in such a way that they don't impact the decision maker.


Arguing the exact numbers is kind of a side show because it doesn't change the underlying mechanics. To answer the question, though, it all depends on who you are, and what you add into the total. I pulled 5% and 4% as round numbers. I also don't think the 2.5-3.5% are telling the whole story.

The Visa and MasterCard discount rate is listed as 2.1 percent, American Express transactions are 3.95 percent.
...
When I checked my books, it turned out that last year we did 131 credit card transactions, totaling $639,000. Of that amount, $611,714 actually landed in my bank account. The rest — $27,286 — went to charges and fees. That’s a total processing cost of 4.27 percent — considerably more than the 2.1 percent or so that I initially signed up for.
http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/...le-and-understandable-credit-card-processing/

So here we have a claim in a respectable source of 3.95% for Amex, and the point that the final costs are much higher than the indicated fees.

Different cards have different rates. These cash back cards in particular are pretty nasty:

Second Tier - Mid-qualified Rate
Also known as a partially qualified rate, the mid-qualified rate is the percentage rate a merchant will be charged whenever they accept a credit card that does not qualify for the lowest rate (the qualified rate). This may happen for several reasons such as:

A consumer credit card is keyed into a credit card terminal instead of being swiped
A special kind of credit card is used like a rewards card or business card
A mid-qualified rate is higher than a qualified rate. Some of the transactions that are usually grouped into the Mid-Qualified Tier can cost the provider more in interchange costs, so the merchant account providers do make a markup on these rates.

The use of "rewards cards" can be as high as 40% of transactions. So it is important that the financial impact of this fee be understood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_account#Second_Tier_-_Mid-qualified_Rate
 

Tech198

Cancelled
Mar 21, 2011
15,915
2,151
i don't use any of these services.

Mobile payments may look good though.

I wonder how many "payment services" Apple will "keep dropping" until they find one that work best ....

iBeacon was supposed to be one too, but we don't hear about that anymore.
 

Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
8,925
11,508
I wonder how many "payment services" Apple will "keep dropping" until they find one that work best ....

iBeacon was supposed to be one too, but we don't hear about that anymore.
Not since yesterday:
Discussions with retailers have reportedly focused on the difficulties behind building a unified payment service to be used with multiple retail outlets, with Apple also encouraging retailers to adopt the company's Bluetooth-based iBeacons, which could potentially be used as part of a payments service in the future.
 

Good User Name

macrumors 6502
Jul 7, 2011
283
164
Until you're standing in line in a shop and can't pay because their internet-access broke down.

Without a connection stores can't run your cards today either. When the system is down they resort to running the cards through a carbon paper machine. If they didn't have Internet access I'd, at worst, have to read the number off of my phone for them to write down.
 

Menel

Suspended
Aug 4, 2011
6,351
1,356
Instead of coming up with a completely new system, why not integrate PayWave or something similar? That way it'll work with retailers' existing systems. I don't want to see another Passbook (I don't know about in the US, but in NZ there is only one entry in "Apps for Passbook" and it only works in Australia).



Existing terminals cache the transaction and handle it when the connection comes back up. It's certainly doable.

It's fairly large, and very useful in the US.

Loyalty cards: Kroger, Target, Walgreens, REI, American Airlines, AAA.
Some with e-coupons loadable via their app.

Starbucks reloadable payment/loyalty card.

Delta and American Airlines location aware boarding passes. Fandango/Regal movie tickets.

I use passbook multiple times a week. Bypass the hassle of a printer and keeping track of extra stuff.
 

CarpalMac

macrumors 68000
Nov 19, 2012
1,622
3,992
UK
That's when you use your wallet. Not like you're going to burn all your plastic in a bonfire when this comes out.

So, I have to keep my physical wallet on me, as is per usual.

Truly, a great success there then for the digital wallet. :rolleyes:
 

Trapezoid

macrumors 65816
Mar 19, 2014
1,429
0
So, I have to keep my physical wallet on me, as is per usual.

Truly, a great success there then for the digital wallet. :rolleyes:

Eh, I didn't anticipate that this would cause all technology to be infallible. There always has to be a fallback method.

Maybe in the distant future, the fallback would also not require a physical wallet but I think it's certain that that's not now.

This is more convenience than full replacement
 
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