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namethisfile

macrumors 65816
Jan 17, 2008
1,186
168
Pretty much all of the 'boat rocking' features have been their since day 1 and Apple has spent most of the last three years giving X the 'standard' features that it lacked at launch so it can be more like other NLEs. Feature parity isn't a one way street. If the current version of X had been the launch version the reception would've have been much less volatile.

I don't think Apple didn't rock the boat for the betterment of the industry, I think they rocked it for the betterment of their bottom line. FCP X is an inexpensive NLE with a very low learning curve and the fastest growing segment of video editors are part time video editors. Out of the gate Apple wanted to target a broader audience and not settle for just the war of attrition that had developed between the old FCP and Avid MC.

hey, i'm pretty sure that if FCP X had so and so features in the beginning that another so and so feature or non-feature would have been criticized. i am not so sure to go as far as that it is volatile, though. i mean, FCP is not apple's bread and butter. it's a show-off piece. it says look how great we are at making software. and it is a great software. i was totally blown away by FCP X. it reminds me of working on a Steinbeck, which is an editing table that you cut film with. the steinbeck i was working on only had one monitor much like how FCP X is setup, instead of the usual two like in FCP 7 w/ Source monitor and Timeline monitor.... well, the second monitor is still there in FCP X but it is now like a glorified scrubber viewer, if you know what I mean.

anyway, FCP X i think took apple back to when OS X was introduced. OS X was so weird to people that Apple had to wrap this OS into an titanium body. at least, this is what i think. remember the G4 titanium powerbooks? i remember those and thought they were great. i wanted one because i was coming out of college at the time and wanted to use a mac for FCP, but the way the powerbooks were made back then made me want a mac even more. if that makes sense.

i guess what i am trying to say is that FCP X is, if it rocks anyone's boat, it should rock not the industry or whatever, but you. it should rock your boat. yeh, sure, some people know about FCP in the "industry." but, apple--if you know apple is about "personal" experiences. and, to me, FCP X is one of those products apple has to "Wow" not the industry, but you.

thank you.
 

LethalWolfe

macrumors G3
Jan 11, 2002
9,370
124
Los Angeles
hey, i'm pretty sure that if FCP X had so and so features in the beginning that another so and so feature or non-feature would have been criticized.

Obviously no one knows how an alternate history would have gone down, but 10.2 is much more accepted than 10.0 and I think that's in large part to things like multicam, external monitoring, XML/OMF support, importing of FCP 7 projects, etc.,. having been addressed (if even it was by third parties).

anyway, FCP X i think took apple back to when OS X was introduced.

At least during the OS 9 to OS X (and even PPC to Intel) transition there was actually a transition period. Releasing a feature-bare FCP X (that had no way to import FCP 7 projects) and immediately halting FCP7 sales was not a good idea. I think the 'heads up' Apple just gave everyone about Aperture is them trying to avoid repeating past mistakes.
 

linuxcooldude

macrumors 68020
Mar 1, 2010
2,480
7,232
I don't think Apple didn't rock the boat for the betterment of the industry, I think they rocked it for the betterment of their bottom line. FCP X is an inexpensive NLE with a very low learning curve and the fastest growing segment of video editors are part time video editors. Out of the gate Apple wanted to target a broader audience and not settle for just the war of attrition that had developed between the old FCP and Avid MC.

I think the change was good for both the users and Apple. The user base for up and coming video editors is certainly larger with an affordable price. The learning curve is smaller out of the box. But FCP X advanced features are there as your skills grow and the application grows along with you.

While I'm sure most will say it will alienate older users coming from FCP 7, in the end it won't matter. They will either stay and learn the new interface or move on. The larger target audience more then likely stick with FCP X in the long run and will gain acceptance just as much as FCP 7 did.
 

PocketSand11

macrumors 6502a
Jun 12, 2014
688
1
~/
As someone who went from Final Cut Express to X I can tell you that Express is much much worse than X. Express will not even use all the cores in your 2008 Mac Pro. The upgrade is more than worth it!

Well yeah, that's why I wanted the update. I don't understand how the super-parallelizeable task of rendering video is not spread across an arbitrary number of cores in FCE. I meant that the interface is better.
 

YoGramMamma

macrumors regular
Feb 20, 2006
110
0
If I can try to offer a (hopefully) unbiased two cents from an actual professional video editor in "the industry" in LA, my experience is this:

Most editors do not use FCPX. Many heard about all the drama from the initial launch and stayed away, many work in a post production facility (or part of a workflow) that FCPX doesn't jive well with and therefore they don't bother. That being said, this is the reality now, in 2014. But to end the conversation here is very short sighted.

I use FCPX and have been using it from June 2011. Initially I used it alongside FCP7 but now I use it exclusively. There are several projects that I have to send out to post sound / color who work in workflows other than FCPX and I have no limitations in doing that. I use X to 7 and simply convert my completed edits to FCP7 and then export an XML or EDL or OMF from there. I tie it all up in a nice zipped folder with a copy of the 7 project file, the X library, and any other reference assets. I've been doing this for years now, with no hiccup. It takes about an extra 15 mins once I have locked picture. If post color is using DaVinci I don't even have to do that I just send the XML straight from X.

There have been national commercials for Google, Verizon, Skechers, Taco Bell, and projects for Lady Gaga and other top bands that I have personally edited on FCPX so I only have those credits and about 200 lesser known client videos that have been done in X. Professional?? I dunno you be the judge. I hate hearing all this talk about "professional" software though bc everyone's definition of that word is so subjective and so varied. X allows me to work in a way that I prefer and that's why I use it. I think premiere and avid are fine software, and I don't bash them simply because I don't prefer them. Even though I use and love X, I still wouldn't be so simple-minded to think that it's widely used within the (niche) community of pro video editors... It isn't. And that's ok. Here's why...

Because all the younger generation of "not pros" that are just dipping their toes in the world of video editing now, are going to be the same people in 20 years that are vying for the more prestigious edit jobs, and it's my (hopefully humble enough) opinion that THIS is who apple has it's crosshairs aimed at with the retooling of FCPX. The kids. When FCPX was first launched I took a long look at not only the workflow nuances of how apple's editor differed from adobes and avids, but also how the software underpinnings differed - from a code and framework perspective. I then evaluated which company I thought would have the better software in 5, 10, and subsequent years. It was my personal opinion that while adobe and avids offerings were more wise for editing in an "industry compliant" way now, the current way common NLEs work DID/DOES in fact need a rethinking if it's going to run in any efficient way in 5+ years. (Notice I said "efficient" way, meaning not to imply that in 5 years premiere won't work... But rather that hardware and software synergy if you will, will require fresh code in order to maximize hardware abilities). That conclusion, combined with my ability to work in X and use a handful of inexpensive plugins to assimilate with a non-X-friendly "industry" is the reason why I use X. That decision is only corroborated more and more with every person who sees my work then finds out it was done in X, especially if they're near my edit station and I show them how I work in the app. But again, this is my experience and certainly isn't applicable for every editor everywhere.

But really, just use what makes sense in your post workflow. That is all.
 

namethisfile

macrumors 65816
Jan 17, 2008
1,186
168
hey, y'all:

here's my another 2 cents about FCP X and the new "UI" change. some call it amateur and the resemblance to iMovie UI certainly can make it seem so. but, the big but here--it's not amateurish or even "professional." i call it "truly nonlinear video editing" as apple sees it should be. what i mean by this is that FCP X's solo timeline monitor and scrubber window has replaced the two monitor setup most people are familiar with. FCP 7 has the traditional 2-monitor window thingy, for example. well, guess what? that 2-monitor window is borrowed from linear editing. that's right! LINEAR EDITING! remember videos? VHS? well, video editing setups in the 80's and 90's used two monitors. and then when computer editing software came around--it borrowed the same 2-monitor thingy as in the video world. there is nothing wrong with it and it works. nor is one inferior than the other. i'm just saying where apple was inspired to change the UI of FCP to what is now in X. or perhaps, how that same UI inspired iMovie before it. it's from the film world (as in actual film-film-film). whereas, traditional NLE's like Avid and Premiere have a UI that resembles the video world.

thanks.
 

jeffhayford

macrumors member
Nov 9, 2007
50
77
Trust

Problem is the production/post production world is built on trust. And for a long time people gained trust in Apple's ability to build a solid product FCP2-7.

With their latest round of killing apps and re-writing them they've lost that trust and it's going to be a long time before they gain it back, if ever. At the end of the day I'm not just laying down a couple hundred bucks on an editing system I'm entrusting a company to provide professional software, with all the functionality and tools I need to sell myself on that platform or any number of platforms.

Their offerings need to meet and exceed what other companies are providing and frankly the trust and the tools are not there.
 

LethalWolfe

macrumors G3
Jan 11, 2002
9,370
124
Los Angeles
When FCPX was first launched I took a long look at not only the workflow nuances of how apple's editor differed from adobes and avids, but also how the software underpinnings differed - from a code and framework perspective. I then evaluated which company I thought would have the better software in 5, 10, and subsequent years. It was my personal opinion that while adobe and avids offerings were more wise for editing in an "industry compliant" way now, the current way common NLEs work DID/DOES in fact need a rethinking if it's going to run in any efficient way in 5+ years.

Personally I think it's too risky to try and pick a 'winner' and put all my eggs in that basket. In 2009, FCP 7 came out, PPro was a joke, Avid was still king though losing more ground to FCP and Resolve was a six-figure color grading system. A lot can change in five years.

Apple obviously has no problems hitting the reset button (or just flat out pulling the plug) so 5 years from now I'd start worrying that X is going to be slowly starved before getting put down like the old FCP (not the most comfortable feeling if you've spent the better part of a decade building a FCP X-centric business and/or workflow). Adobe shot itself in the foot with going all in on CC , Avid has been slowly bleeding for years, Lightworks finally has a Beta on the Mac and many people are wanting Blackmagic to keep going down the NLE path with Resolve. Not to mention a whole lot of people are still using FCP 7 (which is really slowing down the adaption rate of other NLEs).

The NLE race is wide open and I'm totally accepting of the possibility that the main NLE I'm using today will not be the main NLE I'm using in 2017. I'm already well versed in the old FCP, Avid and PPro so my plan is to remain fluent in 2-3 NLEs and to archive my projects in as platform agnostic a way as possible.


it's from the film world (as in actual film-film-film). whereas, traditional NLE's like Avid and Premiere have a UI that resembles the video world.

Yet the de facto standard for digital film editing is Avid (and has been for a long time) so it seems people like separate source and record monitors/windows. Even early attempts at NLEs made for film editing (like the Edit Droid by Lucasfilm) had separate source and record monitors.

As an aside, editing physical film is also linear editing (if you are at Point A in a reel and you want to go to Point F in a reel you have to go through Points B, C, D and E, in order, first).
 

jonnysods

macrumors G3
Sep 20, 2006
8,430
6,892
There & Back Again
About to run the update. It took me a long time to get used to the changes in FCPX, I'm starting to like them a lot more. I will say that my workflow in FCP7 was a lot smoother and I felt like I got more done quickly. The blend of iMovie can get a little frustrating sometimes. Grateful for lots of great updates though.
 

namethisfile

macrumors 65816
Jan 17, 2008
1,186
168
Yet the de facto standard for digital film editing is Avid (and has been for a long time) so it seems people like separate source and record monitors/windows. Even early attempts at NLEs made for film editing (like the Edit Droid by Lucasfilm) had separate source and record monitors.

As an aside, editing physical film is also linear editing (if you are at Point A in a reel and you want to go to Point F in a reel you have to go through Points B, C, D and E, in order, first).

well, do you really think there is such a thing as defacto standard? all of the NLE's digest/ingest the same video formats. or whatever.

my comparison with the video world editing setup using tape decks and two monitors, which NLE's like FCP7, Premiere Pro and Avid has emulated into their UI is to make one comfortable using a computer, since most of the editors back in the day where coming from analog editing. FCP X users have never touched a steinbeck or even a video editing deck setup. this is why FCP X is what it is. it's inspiration though, as i tried to say before is from the film world. particularly, the steinbeck editing table with just one monitor. simple. and it works.

film editing with a steinbeck is nonlinear. i hate to say it. when you're editing on film and in a film editable table like a steinbeck, you have your film unreeled and hanging out in real bins just like you do in a computer program. so, say you have film strip that is two foot long (i think just over a minute or so in video length or whatever)--going from film strip that is in the beginning to the end takes like 2 seconds or no seconds at all. it's just like scrubbing a video clip in FCP X. this is nonlinear. you see the strip you put it the tapehead where you want it and bam. you're there.

in video, going from 00:00 to 00:50, you'd have to press the fast for ward button. or press stop and fast forward to make it faster. then press play again. and then fast forward the remaining minutes to that point. unless you overshot and you'd have to press the rewind button.

so, say you want film reel D--in film editing table--you think of it--you grab film reel D and you have film reel D.

if this was video editing, you'd have to fast forward to film reel D or rewind to film reel D, depending on where it is located on the tape.
 
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milo

macrumors 604
Sep 23, 2003
6,891
522
Aperture is completely out. Final Cut went to the "X" version which started out to be wretched.

That's still just two apps. And while the FCX transition was ugly they've been working overtime since it was released and it has had huge improvements.

There are plenty of software companies that have dumped an app or two every few years, nothing unique to apple.
 

SamEllens

macrumors newbie
Apr 12, 2011
23
0
skimmed through some comments here. FCPX has no penetration at all in my world - broadcast offline post production for television series and documentaries. Almost everyone is on Avid. Some holdouts on FCP7.
 

phrehdd

macrumors 601
Oct 25, 2008
4,313
1,311
That's still just two apps. And while the FCX transition was ugly they've been working overtime since it was released and it has had huge improvements.

There are plenty of software companies that have dumped an app or two every few years, nothing unique to apple.

Milo - there is no doubt that the FCX transition was ugly. There are still "regular" Final Cut Pro users that have voiced concerns that go beyond the updates for FCX. What Apple did was what Microsoft does - make the world a beta tester site for an app that was not ready for prime time. There is suggestion that such behavior is rather suspect when it comes to presenting one's self as a source for professional applications.

Apple does not make many "pro" apps and while everyone knows just what a mess FCX was and now that Aperture is being abandoned, it is hard for some to have any faith or for that matter "loyalty" to Apple's software divisions.

Everyone has their own take on matters such as this and I am no different. I am not an Aperture user but like many here, we know some that are avid users of the application.

I would have preferred Apple go another direction that reworked Aperture to make "Aperture X" which was a very good DAM, minimal feature sets and designed from the get go to let the end user custom the app by 3rd party plug ins. Thus, if you want a good masking tool, pick from 3rd parties... want HDR ability, pick from 3rd party and similar for extended printing tools. Apple in turn would be the framework for these 3rd party apps and only have to focus on DAM updates/improvements along with ability to read various RAW formats. Apple would have to engage a few 3rd parties to support such an app. OnOne, Alien, Topaz, Nik and more come to mind which of course are already creating plug ins that add or replace Aperture features. This new breed of would certainly be able to compete or surpass Lightroom if the emphasis was on 3rd party plug ins first and foremost with a solid DAM backing it. - Just an opinion.
 

milo

macrumors 604
Sep 23, 2003
6,891
522
Still just two apps, I don't find that a convincing case for "most".
 

fuchsdh

macrumors 68020
Jun 19, 2014
2,017
1,813
Milo - there is no doubt that the FCX transition was ugly. There are still "regular" Final Cut Pro users that have voiced concerns that go beyond the updates for FCX. What Apple did was what Microsoft does - make the world a beta tester site for an app that was not ready for prime time. There is suggestion that such behavior is rather suspect when it comes to presenting one's self as a source for professional applications.

Apple does not make many "pro" apps and while everyone knows just what a mess FCX was and now that Aperture is being abandoned, it is hard for some to have any faith or for that matter "loyalty" to Apple's software divisions.

Everyone has their own take on matters such as this and I am no different. I am not an Aperture user but like many here, we know some that are avid users of the application.

I would have preferred Apple go another direction that reworked Aperture to make "Aperture X" which was a very good DAM, minimal feature sets and designed from the get go to let the end user custom the app by 3rd party plug ins. Thus, if you want a good masking tool, pick from 3rd parties... want HDR ability, pick from 3rd party and similar for extended printing tools. Apple in turn would be the framework for these 3rd party apps and only have to focus on DAM updates/improvements along with ability to read various RAW formats. Apple would have to engage a few 3rd parties to support such an app. OnOne, Alien, Topaz, Nik and more come to mind which of course are already creating plug ins that add or replace Aperture features. This new breed of would certainly be able to compete or surpass Lightroom if the emphasis was on 3rd party plug ins first and foremost with a solid DAM backing it. - Just an opinion.

First off, Photos might be the application you speak of, we don't know yet if third-party plugins will be supported or welcomed.

Secondly, Final Cut Pro X is $300. Logic Pro X is $200. For any pro that is chump change, and so I don't really buy the argument that you can seriously lose much investing in the programs--there's little to invest beyond some time to get up to speed, same as any other program. Compared to the huge costs of Avid to this day, or the potentially huge costs of subscription pricing via Adobe, I'd take cheaper software with an unclear support path, especially when that $300 has gotten me three years of free updates. That's not a choice everyone can make or would want to make, but it's software. You're going to have to learn new software. Pros should expect that they're going to have to do it more often than casual users. If they don't like it, they probably chose the wrong profession.
 

phrehdd

macrumors 601
Oct 25, 2008
4,313
1,311
First off, Photos might be the application you speak of, we don't know yet if third-party plugins will be supported or welcomed.

Secondly, Final Cut Pro X is $300. Logic Pro X is $200. For any pro that is chump change, and so I don't really buy the argument that you can seriously lose much investing in the programs--there's little to invest beyond some time to get up to speed, same as any other program. Compared to the huge costs of Avid to this day, or the potentially huge costs of subscription pricing via Adobe, I'd take cheaper software with an unclear support path, especially when that $300 has gotten me three years of free updates. That's not a choice everyone can make or would want to make, but it's software. You're going to have to learn new software. Pros should expect that they're going to have to do it more often than casual users. If they don't like it, they probably chose the wrong profession.

(You are) Rather cavalier about people's time being forced (possibly) to learn a new software, being forced to "transfer" (possibly) megs to gigs of files, and adjust to a new workflow.

Then again, I saw some people move to Apple because of the applications and the confidence that Apple would take care of them. This is perhaps the crux (for many) of the issue many have brought up in less than positive comments. You may want to reread your response and not take on the role of speaking for the masses. - It is rather lackluster at best.
 

Aiwaz418

macrumors member
Jun 21, 2011
34
77
Burbank, CA
Bwhahahahhahahah Thanks Kid. Editing user share, is Avid 35% Fcp7 30% Premiere CC 18% and FCP x at17% Now So BWHAHAHAH

Final cut 7-x make up more of the market then any other, and FCP7 is losing users to FCPx so lol Avid has not gained much market share lol and premiere has not gained much more market share either so..
********.

No major studio is ****ing around with X. That is fact.

----------

LOL...this statement is so false.

Tons use FCX in TV and Film and those that don't moved to Premiere, not Avid.
No professionals use it.

Keep lying.
 

LethalWolfe

macrumors G3
Jan 11, 2002
9,370
124
Los Angeles
well, do you really think there is such a thing as defacto standard? all of the NLE's digest/ingest the same video formats. or whatever.

Sure. A de facto standard is just something that's so commonly used/done that it becomes an unofficial standard. For example, in video editing, graphic design, music production, etc., it's assumed that people will use Macs therefore Macs have become the de facto standard. When it comes to editing movies or TV shows in 'Hollywood' Avid is the de facto standard.

my comparison with the video world editing setup using tape decks and two monitors, which NLE's like FCP7, Premiere Pro and Avid has emulated into their UI is to make one comfortable using a computer, since most of the editors back in the day where coming from analog editing. FCP X users have never touched a steinbeck or even a video editing deck setup. this is why FCP X is what it is. it's inspiration though, as i tried to say before is from the film world. particularly, the steinbeck editing table with just one monitor. simple. and it works.

I get the comparison. My point is that even Edit Droid (a very early NLE made by Lucasfilm targeting film editors) had separate source and record monitors and so did Lightworks (which even used a Steenbeck-inspired hardware controller) so maybe for an NLE it's the better way to go?

Or is your point that it's just purely an aesthetic choice like the skeuomorphism found in previous versions of iOS?

so, say you want film reel D--in film editing table--you think of it--you grab film reel D and you have film reel D.

if this was video editing, you'd have to fast forward to film reel D or rewind to film reel D, depending on where it is located on the tape.
How do you go from the beginning to the middle to the end of a reel of film? Pretty much the same way you go from the beginning to the middle to the end of a video tape. Say I want video tape D. I think of it, I grab it and I have video tape D. A 12min film reel isn't drastically different than a 12min video tape.

Walter Murch on a draw back of non-linear editing vs linear editing on film:
“As with all digital non-linear editing, its greatest strength is also its greatest weakness,” says Murch.” It gives you what you say you want, but that may not be what you need.” The speed and precision with which digital editng systems deliver results for the editor can also cut out artistic surprises that come by accident. “These systems don’t talk to you very well. The picture boards and the scene cards are my way to kick back at non-linear editing.”

He also talks about the pros and cons of non-linear editing on a computer vs linear editing on a KEM or Steenbeck in his book "In the Blink of an Eye".

Two asides, it's steenbeck (not steinbeck) and 2 feet of 35mm film is about 2 seconds in duration.
 

JustinePaula

macrumors 6502a
Mar 14, 2012
611
259
Why should it matter who uses what???

You should focus on what best serves your clients needs, and what you can afford. With Avid and Adobe moving to a subscription only business model, and Apple so far staying with the once off costs, this should factor into your thinking.

With subscription only you run the risk of the owner pushing prices, being hacked, not having access to your own material, this happened recently with Adobe.

I love the way FCP X works, it has a very vibrant community of very vocal active users and developers, it has a wonderful timeline interface, it is being improved almost monthly.

FCP 7 is old and dead, not a viable or even stable platform, Avid and Adobe have retained the old tired interface of FCP 7.

Yes it is tried and tested, does that mean it will work into the futuure?? No, as was the case with lead based gas, it worked, but long term it would have been a disaster, the formulation was changed, Apple took a risk, effed up FCP no question, they have admitted to it..

FCP X in July 2014 is a super powerful non linear system, and not going anyway but UP!!
 

fuchsdh

macrumors 68020
Jun 19, 2014
2,017
1,813
(You are) Rather cavalier about people's time being forced (possibly) to learn a new software, being forced to "transfer" (possibly) megs to gigs of files, and adjust to a new workflow.

Then again, I saw some people move to Apple because of the applications and the confidence that Apple would take care of them. This is perhaps the crux (for many) of the issue many have brought up in less than positive comments. You may want to reread your response and not take on the role of speaking for the masses. - It is rather lackluster at best.

"Cavalier" is the word you would use, I'd use "pragmatic". You're a fool if you think that half the applications you use today are going to be around in 20 years; hell Avid is on the ropes and I could see it failing entirely in the next five years if they keep bleeding cash.

I'm not speaking for the masses--I'm speaking for myself as a professional, and to the best of my ability, the professionals I work with and talk to.

The outrage-by-proxy is a waste of everyone's time. If you don't want to invest the small amount in Apple's less-certain future, you have the more expensive, more platform-agnostic solutions like Adobe.

(And, just because people have short memories, the only applications I've used from Apple that's been discontinued is Color and DVDSP. Meanwhile, Adobe pulled GoLive, LiveMotion, Fireworks, Soundbooth, Encore, PageMaker, ImageReady, Freehand, Atmosphere, and whatever that stupid 3D program they created was. So again: if you can't deal with software disappearing, you're really in the wrong profession.)
 
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JustinePaula

macrumors 6502a
Mar 14, 2012
611
259
Everyone has the right to voice popular or unpopular views, if the reasoning is sound and has valid points, that is fine.

If FCP X does not meet your needs, there are many others, lets not forget Smoke, Resolve, lightworks, you can go to a computer supply store and for a $1 buy a dvd with some sort of branded editing software, something from sony, canon, and a few others, I think Nero has a cheap editing package.

If none of those helps, then go into Linux, there are a ton of developers I am sure willing for a year's supply of pizza willing to code a FCP 7 clone...

If not that, consider a new career..
 
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chaosbunny

macrumors 68020
Well yeah, that's why I wanted the update. I don't understand how the super-parallelizeable task of rendering video is not spread across an arbitrary number of cores in FCE. I meant that the interface is better.

The interface is personal preference, I can't really say which one I like better. But the mentioned ability to use all cores and the resulting ability to apply color corrections and effects in real time without rendering made the upgrade worth it. It's just so much faster to work in X.
 
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