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GGJstudios

macrumors Westmere
May 16, 2008
44,545
943
How does "Buy something else" help reduce or reverse Apple's losses in market share?
It's painfully obvious that you couldn't care less about Apple's market share, which is doing just fine without including outdated features in its products. You're far more focused on the fact that Apple doesn't cater to your whims in its product offerings. The appropriate response is "buy something else" if you don't like what they offer. Complaining that you don't like the changes they've made in current models is completely useless, as it's not going to change any decisions made by Apple. The same is true for any computer maker on the planet, so it's not just an Apple issue.
 

scaredpoet

macrumors 604
Apr 6, 2007
6,627
342
Do you realize how absolutely worthless that statement is?

What if Apple doubled all its prices? "Buy something else."
What if Apple eliminated all warranties? "Buy something else."
What if Apple reverted to using only eight bit CPUs? "Buy something else."

How are these these statements worthless? If Apple or ANY company did these things, is your advice to shrug, keep buying their stuff and then complain loudly about it in a forum that company doesn't bother to check? What does that accomplish?

How does "Buy something else" help anyone with an investment in Apple hardware or software?

How does "Buy something else" help reduce or reverse Apple's losses in market share?

The questions you need to be asking are:

"How is does it help me, when I continue to buy products that I dislike?"
"How is does it help me, when I continue to give money to Apple when I dislike the decisions they are making?"

The "me" of course, being you, yourself.

Don't worry about Apple. Apple is a multi-billion dollar corporation that pays people to ask questions like "how is X good for Apple?" and "how does X affect our marketshare?" And their major determining factor in that vein is whether people are still giving them money.

If you continue to buy their products, even if you hate how they're designed, you are only reinforcing Apple's current decision making process, giving no incentive for them to change. The thought process will be "Why change? People like Thermonuclear are going to keep giving us money, anyway."

The only way Apple WILL learn to change is if they stop getting your money; if their marketshare does actually decline, if their profits do fall.

On the other hand, continuing to pay them money while bemoaning what you feel are the wrong decisions, is only encouraging what - in your opinion - is bad behavior. If you are not happy with any company's products, why in the world would you be concerned about helping increase their market share when they show no "improvement?" Why would anyone feel it incumbent upon themselves to help any company flood the market with "bad" products?

The old cliche applies: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results. You've upgraded to hardware/software that doesn't do what you want it to do, in that very persnickety way you want it done. So, maybe it's time to try something else, don't you think? It's certainly what I did back in 2007 when I switched platforms, and I'm a much happier individual for it.
 
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MattInOz

macrumors 68030
Jan 19, 2006
2,760
0
Sydney
I've got a G3 iMac with its facing Harmon Kardon speakers, a G4 iMac with its standard external H-K speakers, and a 2010 iMac with its bounce speakers. The G4 iMac ranks first and the 2010 Mac last. Why? In part because primate evolution has given us forward facing, directional earlobes. The effect is even better when the audio source is directionally aligned with respect to the hearer's ears, something which can be done by elevating the G4's speakers. This alignment also was done by design with the stereo speakers on the Twentieth Anniversary Macintosh.

The bounce speakers on most HDTV models have the same shortcomings as do those on all recent iMacs. Anyone who is serious about audio gets a sound bar. Mine is made by Polk Audio and is fed via TOSLINK (digital optical). It also came with a cute little remote, another thing which has disappeared from the iMac.

For an office environment, I'd use a good set of lightweight semi-pro headphones; no one would be disturbed by my audio and I wouldn't be disturbed by theirs.

Sure in my own space no one around when a really nice set of speakers is called for but... Sometimes at work you want your own music to set your own pace.

Headphones just don't work when you spend a good percentage of your day on the phone or alternatives coordinating off site members of the team with the onsite members of the team. Headphones are no good on team members in house if I need to rely info to them. iMac bounce speakers any sound that misses me is heading up to the ceiling and generally not coming down again. I don't have to sit still aligned to the speakers.
The speakers supplied with the iMac are never going to fall in to the really nice range. So to me it is better if they focus on creating a good background sound pool, or functional sound for use. Although the snowball speakers that came with the G4 where kind of ok.
 

melendezest

Suspended
Jan 28, 2010
1,693
1,579
How are these these statements worthless? If Apple or ANY company did these things, is your advice to shrug, keep buying their stuff and then complain loudly about it in a forum that company doesn't bother to check? What does that accomplish?



The questions you need to be asking are:

"How is does it help me, when I continue to buy products that I dislike?"
"How is does it help me, when I continue to give money to Apple when I dislike the decisions they are making?"

The "me" of course, being you, yourself.

Don't worry about Apple. Apple is a multi-billion dollar corporation that pays people to ask questions like "how is X good for Apple?" and "how does X affect our marketshare?" And their major determining factor in that vein is whether people are still giving them money.

If you continue to buy their products, even if you hate how they're designed, you are only reinforcing Apple's current decision making process, giving no incentive for them to change. The thought process will be "Why change? People like Thermonuclear are going to keep giving us money, anyway."

The only way Apple WILL learn to change is if they stop getting your money; if their marketshare does actually decline, if their profits do fall.

On the other hand, continuing to pay them money while bemoaning what you feel are the wrong decisions, is only encouraging what - in your opinion - is bad behavior. If you are not happy with any company's products, why in the world would you be concerned about helping increase their market share when they show no "improvement?" Why would anyone feel it incumbent upon themselves to help any company flood the market with "bad" products?

The old cliche applies: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results. You've upgraded to hardware/software that doesn't do what you want it to do, in that very persnickety way you want it done. So, maybe it's time to try something else, don't you think? It's certainly what I did back in 2007 when I switched platforms, and I'm a much happier individual for it.

Great points all.

However, the reverse also applies:

Why gush about the features of the new Apple products at all, if it doesn't impact Apple's decisions about what they include?

The entire point of forums like these are to learn and discuss, cheer lead and deride. Both are equally pointless. Both can provide satisfaction to the ones posting.

What good does it do me that someone loves (or hates) Apple too? None in the strictest sense. But finding "kindred spirits", particularly when addressing specific subjects (like "all things Apple") is strangely satisfying.

The TS effectively started this thread asking a question: What will Apple remove from it's latest offerings? His/her view clearly skews towards dissatisfaction, and he/she points out why as well.

However, I don't think I saw anyone actually answer the question. We all went straight into defending or deriding Apple, depending on each of our user experience and level of satisfaction (or dissatisfaction) with Apple's decision-making.

I'm sure Apple looks at forums like these (maybe not religiously, but still). They have changed their mind or addressed customer-sided issues before, to what may have been caused by external pressure (iPad Mini, iOS 7, all the *gates PR disasters).

Still, you're right in the sense that we vote with our dollars in the end. But this is the right place to vent our frustrations, and to find out we're not alone does soften the blow of our indignation.

We're not trolls. We're long-time Apple users who mourn the loss of features we liked or found useful, etc. Hopefully, that won't happen to anyone else, lest they get to know what we feel like.

And these things aren't (well, weren't) just toys, they're tools. The impact goes well beyond "recreational use". Apple's decisions can impact someone's livelihood. Which is the biggest point of contention: Apple turning into a "consumer-grade" (iAnything) company, and away from being a "professional-grade" (Apple Computer) company.

It seems the "professional" side is there to fuel and build on the "consumer" side.

Good for Apple. Brilliant, really, but it sucks to be us: those with minor to major infrastructure investments that Apple can and does make obsolete overnight, by killing products or features that integrate into that infrastructure.
 
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jrlcopy

macrumors 6502a
Jun 20, 2007
548
840
Like every computer made by Apple, iMacs are not designed or intended to meet all the needs of every potential user.

The annoying thing was that this wasn't always the case, you used to be able to buy an apple computer and you knew that you had everything you needed, every port, every interface, etc.. But now Apple has went adapter crazy. They are more an accessories company than a computer/phone company.
lol
 

GGJstudios

macrumors Westmere
May 16, 2008
44,545
943
The annoying thing was that this wasn't always the case, you used to be able to buy an apple computer and you knew that you had everything you needed, every port, every interface, etc.. But now Apple has went adapter crazy. They are more an accessories company than a computer/phone company.
lol
Macs were never designed to meet the needs of every user. If they happened to have done so for you, it is certain that there were others whose needs weren't fully satisfied by Macs. Nothing has changed. It's just that your needs and Apple's products may have reached a point where another platform is a better choice for you. There are millions of users whose needs are fully met by Apple's current offerings, including many who have little or no need for adapters or external devices to fulfill their computing needs.
 

scaredpoet

macrumors 604
Apr 6, 2007
6,627
342
Why gush about the features of the new Apple products at all, if it doesn't impact Apple's decisions about what they include?

I think if you look at the threads in this forum, I'd say the "gushing" threads are very much in the minority.

The entire point of forums like these are to learn and discuss, cheer lead and deride. Both are equally pointless. Both can provide satisfaction to the ones posting.

Learning and discussion is certainly not pointless. Even some cheerleading and derision is fine. But there is a point where an impasse is reached. The OP isn't going to change his viewpoint, and is happy to insist anyone who disagrees is wrong. Okay... so where do we go from here? 5 more pages of us all saying the same thing over and over again to each other?

I think we've discussed it quite well actually. Each viewpoint has been expressed. Unfortunately, no one budged. Tim Cook certainly isn't going to break in and say "we're putting back all those legacy ports in RIGHT NOW." So, what's the logical conclusion? In my mind, it's "sorry OP, maybe Macs just won't serve your needs anymore. It might be time to look for something else."

The TS effectively started this thread asking a question: What will Apple remove from it's latest offerings? His/her view clearly skews towards dissatisfaction, and he/she points out why as well.

Unfortunately, none of us work for Apple. So, none of us know what will be "taken away" next. Nor do we know yet what industry standard will come next in its place.

However, I don't think I saw anyone actually answer the question.

No, the question was answered, it was just an answer that yourself and OP didn't like. Unfortunately, I don't see any other answer.

Let's say I change my answer, and say "you're right OP, Apple and Tim Cook are total bafoons, and Apple is being stupid!" What does this change, exactly? Apple is still going to do what they're doing. The products will continue to evolve, and the ports will continue to change as old standards get older and new standards take their places. The practical answer will continue to be "welp, maybe you need to look for something else that does suit your needs."

They have changed their mind or addressed customer-sided issues before, to what may have been caused by external pressure (iPad Mini, iOS 7, all the *gates PR disasters).

What has changed on iOS7? And what other "gates" have their been aside from "antenngate," where Apple basically said "all phones do this, you're holding it wrong, but here's a cheap plastic and rubber gasket to make you feel better if you're whining."?

Still, you're right in the sense that we vote with our dollars in the end. But this is the right place to vent our frustrations, and to find out we're not alone does soften the blow of our indignation.

Okay, this thread has extended to 7 pages of venting. What in your opinion, is an appropriate length?

We're not trolls. We're long-time Apple users who mourn the loss of features we liked or found useful, etc. Hopefully, that won't happen to anyone else, lest they get to know what we feel like.

The difference, in my opinion, between a user and a troll is what that user does about their predicament. As I said, I was at a crossroads several years ago when the platform I loved... LOVED... changed drastically, and made it very hard for me to do what I needed to do on it.

What did I do? Well, I vented for a short while. Not very long though. I knew that my energy would be much better expended finding and switching to a platform that DID allow me to move on and do what I want to do, and not have to tinker with it all the time to make basic tasks possible. So I did that. I adapted. I moved on. And I'm very happy with the result.

Griping and bemoaning and finding people to commiserate with is perfectly fine, to a limited point. But there's a point that must be reached when you realize that no, sorry, whoever made that decision that affects you so badly isn't changing their minds. They've moved on... and perhaps so should you. Not moving past that stage doesn't benefit anyone. Staying in that rut raises your blood pressure. It makes you feel miserable. It prevents you from making progress, and getting on with things. It's time wasted on nothing but negative energy. Again, I have to ask: what is gained?

And these things aren't (well, weren't) just toys, they're tools. The impact goes well beyond "recreational use". Apple's decisions can impact someone's livelihood.

I agree, and there are many other things that affect people's livelihoods too. Economies can tank, forcing layoffs. Someone could find a better, cheaper way to do what you do, leaving you at a distinct disadvantage. Laws can be passed making things that were legal not-so-much anymore. Business partners and people can decide they don't want to do business with you anymore, for random reasons.

Again, the way to move past and continue earning your livelihood is to be prepared to adapt to these changes, to find better ways to do what you do, and new people and things to do that thing with. Or, perhaps you need to do something completely new, altogether.

Adaptability defines those who survive such arbitrary changes, and those who perish. Apple alone, and the decisions they make, are not the only factors int he universe that can throw a wrench in someone's plans.

Which is the biggest point of contention: Apple turning into a "consumer-grade" (iAnything) company, and away from being a "professional-grade" (Apple Computer) company.

This is a topic that I'm sure could be its own multi-page thread. I disagree that Apple is no longer a "professional-grade" company. And they've certainly always been about "consumer-grade" products as well; this is nothing new. It just so happens that many professionals are doing things with new tools, and new workflows. They're adapting. Apple is going after that market, rather than choosing to steadfastly stick to old ways of doing things.

Good for Apple. Brilliant, really, but it sucks to be us: those with minor to major infrastructure investments that Apple can and does make obsolete overnight, by killing products or features that integrate into that infrastructure.

"Overnight" is a bit of a dramatic exaggeration, don't you think? Has your existing Mac suddenly decided to stop booting overnight? Do your existing programs no longer run on the same hardware they used to before? Of course not. You can still use those things for quite a while yet.
 

Gregintosh

macrumors 68000
Jan 29, 2008
1,914
533
Chicago
I haven't read the whole discussion just a few pages BUT I will say this:

99% of what is being discussed here is 100% irrelevant to 99% of users. Basically, the iMac right out of the box can do EVERYTHING most users would want. It will go online, check Facebook, e-mail, watch videos, play music, etc. and it will do those things well.

That even goes for the new low end Mac which people complain about. The truth is all macs, including the new low end one, will not only do all the basic things that all users ever really need to do, they will all handle things like Photoshop, iMovie, audio editing, etc. to the extent that most ordinary even many professional users would want.

No, you won't edit the next hollywood blockbuster in 4k on the entry level iMac, and maybe rendering the final cut of your vacation video will take a few mins, but the point is it can be done on the Mac and well enough that it won't be a problem for most users.

The difference today and 5 years ago or 10 years ago is that computers are so damn fast and good these days, that even the lowest end ones can handle just about everything just fine -- AND WILL FOR MANY YEARS TO COME.

In the 90's you bought a computer in January and by September you could not run the latest software anymore. You needed constant upgrades just to keep up. These days, a computer bought 5 years ago still runs the latest Facebook, E-Mail, YouTube, etc.

So while some people may miss buying memory upgrades, video card upgrades, etc. and may lament not being able to do so anymore, the MAIN POINT is that you HAD TO do those things before to keep your computer usable, and these days YOU DO NOT because your computer is good enough for a long time to come.
 

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,485
7,334
In the 90's you bought a computer in January and by September you could not run the latest software anymore. You needed constant upgrades just to keep up. These days, a computer bought 5 years ago still runs the latest Facebook, E-Mail, YouTube, etc.

I'd generally agree but, that said, I was grateful to be able to upgrade my 2011 17" MacBook Pro to 8GB ram, an SSD and add USB3 via an ExpressCard...

Realistically, though, I'd have got 8GB to start with if it hadn't been for the possibility of a cheap third-party upgrade, and USB3 is now available via Thunderbolt (only putting a single TB port on these Macs was silly - but that's a separate argument).

The one reservation I have is hard drives and SSDs. Firstly, the hard drive is the most likely part to fail and, secondly, getting a 1TB SSD (all you need in a laptop or all-in-one given the availability of fast USB3 or TB external drives and high-capacity NAS) is still an expensive proposition, which is likely to become far more affordable during the life of a Mac bought today. That said, replacing the SSD in a rMBP doesn't sound too bad - if someone ever starts selling third-party PCIe SSD upgrades. Not having easily replaceable SSDs in the iMacs (i.e. under a hatch like the RAM in the 27") is a pity though.


Meanwhile, with all of these features vanishing, why do we still have the blaSTED CAPS LOCK KEY, CAUSE OF SO MUCH UNINTENDED SHOUTING?
 

joe-h2o

macrumors 6502a
Jun 24, 2012
997
445
I'd generally agree but, that said, I was grateful to be able to upgrade my 2011 17" MacBook Pro to 8GB ram, an SSD and add USB3 via an ExpressCard...

Realistically, though, I'd have got 8GB to start with if it hadn't been for the possibility of a cheap third-party upgrade, and USB3 is now available via Thunderbolt (only putting a single TB port on these Macs was silly - but that's a separate argument).

Out of interest, how would you rearrange the traces on the 17" MBP logic board to make an Eagle Ridge thunderbolt controller fit, given that you thought the inclusion of only a single port on those early TB-equipped Macs was "silly"?
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,797
6,714
You guys honestly think that the day Steve passed away, everybody at Apple approved and performed R&D on these thinner iMacs? Steve was the CEO, he was probably aware and approved of products still being released.
 

capathy21

macrumors 65816
Jun 16, 2014
1,418
617
Houston, Texas
You guys honestly think that the day Steve passed away, everybody at Apple approved and performed R&D on these thinner iMacs? Steve was the CEO, he was probably aware and approved of products still being released.

Yea many say that Apple has drastically changed since Steve's passing and I don't find that to be true at all. Steve was always obsessed with thin and light devices, constantly pointing to how thin the newest Apple product was.

Appliance style computers were always the end goal and like you said, R&D is sometimes done several years in advance of actually releasing the product. I have no doubt that Apple's computer lineup would look the same with or without Steve being present.
 

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,485
7,334
Out of interest, how would you rearrange the traces on the 17" MBP logic board to make an Eagle Ridge thunderbolt controller fit, given that you thought the inclusion of only a single port on those early TB-equipped Macs was "silly"?

On the 17"? Maybe drop the ExpressCard slot to free up a square shedload of logic board space, then offer a cheap/subsidised TB-to-ExpressCard adapter as a stopgap (which would be good news for 13" and 15" users with legacy ExpressCard devices, too).

More generally? Well, first I'd make sure I owned a hugely successful multinational corporation with enough spare cash to buy a small country or two. For one thing, then Intel would return my calls. Then I'd employ some very clever people to solve the problem and give them the resources they needed.

If the clever people failed to solve the problem, I'd put on a black turtleneck and ask them why for ********* ******'s sake they thought it was a good idea to design a laptop where the wonderful ********* new thunderbolt port was also the only ********* way to connect an external monitor or projector unless the ********* peripheral manufacturers added $200 to the cost of their already ********* expensive thunderbolt peripherals to provide thunderbolt + video daisychaining.

Then, if repeatedly shouting "******!" at the designers didn't solve the problem (it's always worth a try), I'd maybe look at a work-around like adding an auxiliary MiniDisplayPort or producing an external TB -> TB + DisplayPort adapter.
 

dyn

macrumors 68030
Aug 8, 2009
2,708
388
.nl
The annoying thing was that this wasn't always the case, you used to be able to buy an apple computer and you knew that you had everything you needed, every port, every interface, etc.. But now Apple has went adapter crazy. They are more an accessories company than a computer/phone company.
They now have a lot more people to please. Their market share has increased tremendously over time. The only way to be able to please a lot of users is to use a flexible system. That means using a port that can be used for anything. Unfortunately this also means that we must use adapters.

In real life this doesn't really lead to problems for most of us. Usually people only use a mouse with their notebook. They might use a usb stick (storage, 3g dongle) and/or usb drive. All of those ports are on all of the Macs, even the MacBook Air 11". At home most will want to use things like their soundsystem, external monitor, usb printer and so on. For that we can use usb3 or thunderbolt docks (the latter are far more suited for this, especially from a technical point of view). With the desktops there is no problem since those are not moved around (usually). You hook up once and you're done.

Also, a lot of devices are already on usb or use the network (either wired or wireless). Printers used parallel ports, they now use usb or network (wired/wireless). Same with scanners (which also used scsi at some point). Mouse/trackpad is something that used to use serial, then ps/2, then usb and now bluetooth (or some unnecessary proprietary radio technology...yes Logitech, you). Even audio stuff is moving to usb and thunderbolt (the latter for high end/very high end).

The only real problem with this is the cost of the adapter if you need to buy one in order to do something. The highest amount of adapters I've seen people carrying with them is 2: mDP to VGA (for a projector) and the TB-ETH adapter (for a reliable and faster network connection at their desk).

Yes we may have lost specific ports but we got lots of flexibility in return. Quite a few of users out there like it because the machine now is able to do something they require it to do. However, there still are people who don't like it. This also shows that Apple won't be removing something new. Currently they minimized it as far as they currently can. They could do it in the future when we can do things such as wirelessly charge our notebook.

Btw, Apple isn't the only one going this route. Microsoft is doing it too. With the introduction of the Surface Pro 3 they made this very very clear (in case you've missed it with the previous versions of the Surface Pro's).
 
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joe-h2o

macrumors 6502a
Jun 24, 2012
997
445
On the 17"? Maybe drop the ExpressCard slot to free up a square shedload of logic board space, then offer a cheap/subsidised TB-to-ExpressCard adapter as a stopgap (which would be good news for 13" and 15" users with legacy ExpressCard devices, too).

More generally? Well, first I'd make sure I owned a hugely successful multinational corporation with enough spare cash to buy a small country or two. For one thing, then Intel would return my calls. Then I'd employ some very clever people to solve the problem and give them the resources they needed.

Err, the ExpressCard slot on the macbook pro wasn't part of the logic board. There's a header for it, but the card cage itself was a separate component. So what you're advocating is that the logic board itself be made bigger to fit into that space somehow, given that removing the card cage doesn't change the logic board layout at all.

Of course, dropping the express card slot just makes kids like the OP mad - he's already raging that they took away the modem, so your solution to drop the express card slot to make more room for the thunderbolt controller seems misguided.

There's also the problem of powering that controller. The Eagle Ridge chip had a considerably higher TDP than the Port Ridge one that was ultimately used. I assume you'd be ok with the reduced battery life?
 

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,485
7,334
So what you're advocating is that the logic board itself be made bigger to fit into that space somehow,

Of course not, because it would be utterly ridiculous for a resource-starved two-bit Mom & Pop company like Apple to (heaven forbid) make the logic board of a laptop slightly bigger in order to accommodate a major new interface technology. Good heavens, they may even have had to modify the case slightly...

There's also the problem of powering that controller. The Eagle Ridge chip had a considerably higher TDP than the Port Ridge one that was ultimately used. I assume you'd be ok with the reduced battery life?

Hang on, you've got your ridges in a bunch - see Tom's Hardware.

The Early 2011 15" and 17" cMBPs have the full fat, 4-channel Light Ridge controller which could support 2 ports if the ironmongery was there (they can also support 2 external TB displays).

Port Ridge is the peripheral-only controller that fits in a thunderbolt plug housing and didn't exist when the early 2011 17" and 15" MBPs were released.

Eagle Ridge is the 2-channel controller used in the Mid 2011 Mini, Air and 13" cMBP and likewise didn't exist in early 2011.


Of course, dropping the express card slot just makes kids like the OP mad

That's soluble with a TB to ExpressCard adapter... and if the cMBP had two TB ports, you'd actually be able to use it without blocking your only secondary display output (it doesn't have a daisychain port).

Maybe they should have just held off on Thunderbolt until they were ready with the rMBP.
 

melendezest

Suspended
Jan 28, 2010
1,693
1,579
I'd generally agree but, that said, I was grateful to be able to upgrade my 2011 17" MacBook Pro to 8GB ram, an SSD and add USB3 via an ExpressCard...

Realistically, though, I'd have got 8GB to start with if it hadn't been for the possibility of a cheap third-party upgrade, and USB3 is now available via Thunderbolt (only putting a single TB port on these Macs was silly - but that's a separate argument).

The one reservation I have is hard drives and SSDs. Firstly, the hard drive is the most likely part to fail and, secondly, getting a 1TB SSD (all you need in a laptop or all-in-one given the availability of fast USB3 or TB external drives and high-capacity NAS) is still an expensive proposition, which is likely to become far more affordable during the life of a Mac bought today. That said, replacing the SSD in a rMBP doesn't sound too bad - if someone ever starts selling third-party PCIe SSD upgrades. Not having easily replaceable SSDs in the iMacs (i.e. under a hatch like the RAM in the 27") is a pity though.


Meanwhile, with all of these features vanishing, why do we still have the blaSTED CAPS LOCK KEY, CAUSE OF SO MUCH UNINTENDED SHOUTING?

I completely agree. For me, the biggest issue (and the one I've tried unsuccessfully to convey here) is that I simply cannot replace my 17 with a retina 15. Too many limitations, workarounds required, and dollars to be spent upgrading everything else in my infrastructure.

It used to be that I could upgrade machines one for one before, regardless of size because their capabilities were similar. I went from a 17 to a 13, then a 15, and back to the 17 without missing a beat, or needing to buy anything else. All 3 plugged right into my workflow and infrastructure. I could swap hard drives between machines and external drives, should something fail. I could store huge amounts of data in the machine (a family of 6 storage requirements will grow considerably after 15 years of photos, home/feature videos, and music). I could literally duplicate my iMac, so in case of emergency I could grab my 17 and go without needing anything else.

So after much discussion, it really comes down to storage and cost for me. I'll have to wait until SSD capacities go way up and prices come down enough before I make another portable Mac purchase. In addition, replacing my external drive enclosures to something that uses TB or USB3 would be neither cheap nor reasonable (I use eSATA mostly), given that everything works great still. I'm actually considering just buying another of the last 17s used, simply because they do what I need to do, how I need to do it. And will probably end up serving me longer than a new one, given their built-in flexibility.
 

joe-h2o

macrumors 6502a
Jun 24, 2012
997
445
Of course not, because it would be utterly ridiculous for a resource-starved two-bit Mom & Pop company like Apple to (heaven forbid) make the logic board of a laptop slightly bigger in order to accommodate a major new interface technology. Good heavens, they may even have had to modify the case slightly...



Hang on, you've got your ridges in a bunch - see Tom's Hardware.

The Early 2011 15" and 17" cMBPs have the full fat, 4-channel Light Ridge controller which could support 2 ports if the ironmongery was there (they can also support 2 external TB displays).

Port Ridge is the peripheral-only controller that fits in a thunderbolt plug housing and didn't exist when the early 2011 17" and 15" MBPs were released.

Eagle Ridge is the 2-channel controller used in the Mid 2011 Mini, Air and 13" cMBP and likewise didn't exist in early 2011.




That's soluble with a TB to ExpressCard adapter... and if the cMBP had two TB ports, you'd actually be able to use it without blocking your only secondary display output (it doesn't have a daisychain port).

Maybe they should have just held off on Thunderbolt until they were ready with the rMBP.

You are correct - I mixed up the naming convention. I was certain there was a power restriction and PCB layout issue that kept the number of TB ports to one in the early hardware though. Interconnect to the TB controller perhaps?
 

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,485
7,334
You are correct - I mixed up the naming convention. I was certain there was a power restriction and PCB layout issue that kept the number of TB ports to one in the early hardware though. Interconnect to the TB controller perhaps?

Quite possibly, but I'm sure that the limiting factor was how much money and effort Apple devoted to the problem, not some fundamental law of physics.
 

scaredpoet

macrumors 604
Apr 6, 2007
6,627
342

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,485
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To be totally fair: an expresscard-to-anything adapter also costs extra money. To me, express card back in the day is just like thunderbolt is today: it's a port that can do a lot of things, but you HAVE to spend money to make it do what you want.

Yeah, but melendezest already has an Expresscard-to-eSATA adapter. If he buys a rMBP he'll have to junk that and get a TB-to-eSATA adapter (which will cost 3x as much as the Expresscard solution).

Of course, melendezest's real problem (one which I share) is that he has a 17" MBP which, even after 3-4 years, is still a bloody good machine (especially if you exchange the easily user-replaceable hard drive for an SSD) so its really, really hard to justify indulging your craving for that 'new computer smell'. The only real problem is the aforementioned single, shared thunderbolt/displayPort port.
 

scaredpoet

macrumors 604
Apr 6, 2007
6,627
342
Of course, melendezest's real problem (one which I share) is that he has a 17" MBP which, even after 3-4 years, is still a bloody good machine (especially if you exchange the easily user-replaceable hard drive for an SSD) so its really, really hard to justify indulging your craving for that 'new computer smell'. The only real problem is the aforementioned single, shared thunderbolt/displayPort port.

Just to be clear: rMBPs have two Thunderbolt ports. And the eSATA and most other thunderbolt docks will let you daisy-chain as well, so you can hook up your adapter/dock and display while using only one thunderbolt port on the Mac itself (and still have that second one free for whatever).

But while new computer smell is nice, it doesn't make sense to replace something that's still working. Of course the day will come when it might stop working and then you have to do something about that. But that day isn't today, at least.
 

melendezest

Suspended
Jan 28, 2010
1,693
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To be fair, there are Thunderbolt-to-eSATA adapters:
https://www.lacie.com/uk/products/product.htm?id=10574
http://www.akitio.com/accessories/thunder-dock


...but that is all extra money.

Ah. I'd forgotten about those.

But still, at that price, the case for full upgrade becomes an issue to be evaluated.

Regardless, I don't want the loss in flexibility I got now, so I'll still wait until what I got dies or internal SSD storage goes both up in capacity and down in price. I don't want to have to rely on externals if I don't have to, and right now, I don't have to.

If I get another 17, I'd be good to go for the foreseeable future, no dongles required. :D
 

dyn

macrumors 68030
Aug 8, 2009
2,708
388
.nl
Yeah, but melendezest already has an Expresscard-to-eSATA adapter. If he buys a rMBP he'll have to junk that and get a TB-to-eSATA adapter (which will cost 3x as much as the Expresscard solution).
What do you think people who switch from Windows to Mac have to do? Think about applications and hardware that won't work in OS X. All that doesn't stop them from switching. And as with any technology you'll soon reach a point where it is outdated. If it breaks you need to shell out a lot of money because usually you'll have to replace nearly everything in the chain. Doesn't matter if it is a Windows machine from Dell, a mainframe from IBM, a Mac, a car, a bike, etc.

The problem to some is that they see no reason to upgrade because what they use now is simply working for them. In that case, don't upgrade and stick with what you have :cool: Upgrade when things break but be prepared to shell out quite some money because of outdated tools. Advice you can apply to non-IT stuff as well!
 
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