Um... yeah... Here's why your Phone has Locked Bootloaders...

Tig Bitties said:

Good points. I chose the HTC One M8, for the specific reason that is was easily rootable, and could be officially unlocked on HTC's own website, and the GPE ROM could be flashed to it And I have the ATT carrier version too.

I am open minded to going back to an iPhone, my biggest complaints were the small screen size, and no widgets on the home screen. Now if true and the iPhone 6 is 4.7", that is the bare minimums size I like for a screen, I might be tempted to go back. We'll see

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Yup - I jumped back on a Nexus 5 (for me, its all about stock) and I'm starting to want a larger screen more and more. 4.7" is the sweet spot for me. The Nexus 5 is on the border of comfortable use in bed. Really looking forward to what Apple puts out this fall. I think its going to be an unbelievably massive quarter.

Apple generally doesn't overestimate demand - if they are gearing up and building 100 million iPhones for the fall/holiday quarters, you can bet they'll sell that many. That would be unreal.

For me, my few gripes with iOS are being addressed in iOS 8 - iCloud Drive, 3rd Party Keyboards and Quick Reply - so I'll be set. From what I saw of Android L, Google is taking care of some of my Android gripes as well, though the developer preview leaves a bit to be desired (lock screen notifications are still not quite there and the pull down notification pane is a little odd). Looking forward to the final release - it was the whole reason I got an Android again!

My biggest concern with the iPhone 6 is having a jailbreak and whether or not I feel like playing the jailbreak game

I just won't have it any other way.

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556fmjoe said:

Agreed, and I think there's a cultural difference that makes it somehow expected that mobile devices will be locked down. Personal computers were adopted initially by tech oriented people. All you got in the beginning was a command line, so it was not something the average person would just pick up and use. These adopters were interested in hacking stuff to get it to work their way and wanted to tinker with their system. That mindset exists today with desktops. Laptops came out en masse much later, but the mindset was still largely the same. They were always more locked down than desktops, but were close enough to desktops that people still expected to be able to control and modify them.

Mobile devices are very recent and are aimed directly at the mass market consumer who doesn't care about the OS and just wants to use it. They have no expectation of or interest in the ability to tinker with their device. The OEM can get away with locking this down entirely because the userbase doesn't protest it and the attitude toward them is much different.

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All very true. My worry is this mentality will bleed into general computers. For me lockdown such as this is a slippery slope to censorship which kills what makes the internet good.

I should be allowed to install apps from third party sources for gods sake (/glares at apple).

Root access is another point entirely and only moto will give you that without voiding your warranty. Although jail breaking is completely reversible for warranty support along with the rooting of certain particular android phones..

Tig Bitties said:

My biggest concern with the iPhone 6 is battery life. Apple has this stupid fascination with making their phones paper thin for some reason I care about battery life WAY MORE than a super thin phone. Keep it the same thickness as the 5S which is plenty thin already, and stuff an even larger battery in there.

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I actually like the thinness...

But ya battery life is an issue for every phone except the Note IMO. My guess is the iPhone 6 will be a bit better than its predecessor. And that's still as good or better than anything out there.

It'll take a new type of battery chemistry to make any radical changes.

mrex said:

That is another story than having a phone with or without a locked bootloader. You cant access system files without rooting.

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No it's not? Overwriting your ROM data can seriously damage your system if you don't do it right.

chrf097 said:

No it's not? Overwriting your ROM data can seriously damage your system if you don't do it right.

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Ok, this is your original post:

chrf097 said:

My phone has a locked boot loader because Verizon doesn't want to be held accountable for when I storm into their store screaming at them that my phone doesn't work after I deleted important system files.

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You were talking about deleting system files - which is impossible without root access to access to the system partition - then you are talking about flashing. These are completely two differend things. You cannot accidentally delete system files, and when you start messing with a flashing, then you know exactly what you are doing with your phone and hence it is pointless to go to a store and whine.

mrex said:

Ok, this is your original post:

You were talking about deleting system files - which is impossible without root access to access to the system partition - then you are talking about flashing. These are completely two differend things. You cannot accidentally delete system files, and when you start messing with a flashing, then you know exactly what you are doing with your phone and hence it is pointless to go to a store and whine.

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We have a winner!!!

And the people that flash roms and kernals on unlocked phones know exactly how to freaking Odin a stock firmware back on the phone even in the most bricked state.

No way in hell anyone complaining for an unlocked boot loader would ever go into a store and complain.

^ yes that is true! but it is a convenient excuse for the carrier to lock the bootloader

The ironic part is that running the root exploits that are released for locked boot loader phones are more dangerous than just flashing supersu or the rom of your choice with an unlocked bootloader phone. The carrier may actually get more bricked phones from people trying the latest tool to root their device than if they just allowed unlocked bootloaders that let people root the 'right way'. Not to mention it would give people a chance to get rid of these damn OEM skins.

if I wanted to hack my phone I'd buy an iphone

mrex said:

Ok, this is your original post:

You were talking about deleting system files - which is impossible without root access to access to the system partition - then you are talking about flashing. These are completely two differend things. You cannot accidentally delete system files, and when you start messing with a flashing, then you know exactly what you are doing with your phone and hence it is pointless to go to a store and whine.

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System files, boot files, whatever. You're nitpicking and missing the big issue.

Verizon (and AT&T) don't want to be held liable for YOU messing your phone up. They do it to protect their customers because they automatically assume that consumers don't know what they're doing (and they usually offer devices for those who do).

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skratch77 said:

We have a winner!!!

And the people that flash roms and kernals on unlocked phones know exactly how to freaking Odin a stock firmware back on the phone even in the most bricked state.

No way in hell anyone complaining for an unlocked boot loader would ever go into a store and complain.

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You'd be surprised.

I've seen people go into Apple stores and yell at the Genius people that they're phone isn't working. Reason? They messed up when they jailbroke.

I've seen people be sneaky, people be naive, but they all try to get around the system and get their phone they knowingly (or unknowingly) damaged through things like rooting, flashing roms, jailbreaking, etc.

I'm not saying I agree with the practice of locking boot loaders, I'm just saying that's why they do it.

Sure, and I wonder when they start selling a microwave door locked that no one can put a cat into it.

If there are stupid people yelling in a store, call a police to pick up them. It is insane that you see stickers "be careful coffee is hot". WTF!? We could also be raised in a bottle and kept in a room filled by cotton.

This is why I will stick to Nexus or GPE edition phones from now on. And the funny thing is that I do not root or install custom ROMs any more. I used to back when I had the OG Droid, Droid Incredible, GS3 and Razr Maxx. New ROM weekly. Since then, I do not find I have a need. And on top of that, my employer's IT department no longer permits rooted phones to access the Exchange email servers (thanks, MobileIron... not).

Oftentimes I only rooted and unlocked boot loader was to get updates that I wouldn't otherwise via Cyanogenmod and other Roms. A non issue for iDevices thankfully, but I wish Android updates didn't have to go through carriers.

xraydoc said:

This is why I will stick to Nexus or GPE edition phones from now on. And the funny thing is that I do not root or install custom ROMs any more. I used to back when I had the OG Droid, Droid Incredible, GS3 and Razr Maxx. New ROM weekly. Since then, I do not find I have a need. And on top of that, my employer's IT department no longer permits rooted phones to access the Exchange email servers (thanks, MobileIron... not).

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Yeah, my employer is implementing the same policy which is why I will probably switch to an IOS device or change carriers and buy a Nexus. Its actually pretty sad how OEMS and Carriers are killing android phones, by putting their crap on it.

mrex said:

Sure, and I wonder when they start selling a microwave door locked that no one can put a cat into it.

If there are stupid people yelling in a store, call a police to pick up them. It is insane that you see stickers "be careful coffee is hot". WTF!? We could also be raised in a bottle and kept in a room filled by cotton.

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This is literally the worst comparison I've ever seen.

A phone is not comparable to a cat, and damaging your phone is not comparable to microwaving said cat. It's not a living object with free will, it's not protected by rights, there's no legal trouble you can get in for breaking your phone. The only way you're going to microwave a cat without knowing what you're doing is if you're either a very very small child or have the mental capacity of one/you're clinically insane. People are also educated very early on what cats are and what microwaves are.

However LOADs of people get into rooting, flashing custom roms, jailbreaking, etc. while having 0% idea of what they're really doing. Just go look in xda-dev forums. There are many topics relating to people asking the most basic of questions. There will always be people who will mess up (they'll damage their phone, computer, TV, tablet, whatever electronic device they have) and will then attempt to make it the fault of the OEM, despite they're the ones who do it.

AT&T and Verizon would rather just protect themselves rather than give the consumer choice. They have a policy to automatically assume the customer is an idiot at all this. That's why they (Verizon at least) offer developer editions of most of their phones as well.

Not a big deal. This was first an issue with ICS but eventually people found their way around it during the root process using .cab files from previous versions.

In any case. Devices like the G3 will cause many people to reconsider due to many of the features missing from earlier devices are now present.

People will continue to root their phones of course. But much like the iPhone, as new features are introduced, the need to root/JB diminishes.

mrex said:

Sure, and I wonder when they start selling a microwave door locked that no one can put a cat into it.

If there are stupid people yelling in a store, call a police to pick up them. It is insane that you see stickers "be careful coffee is hot". WTF!? We could also be raised in a bottle and kept in a room filled by cotton.

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it's not difficult for you to understand that an unlocked bootloader makes it:

a. simple to root
b. simple to flash rom/custom recovery

with a locked bootloader these options are much more harrowing. So while an unlocked bootloader on its own will not harm your phone or cause you to delete system files, it's the only thing holding you back from doing so.

It's like diving out of your car on the free way. Sure, if your car door is open, and your car is parked, nobody's getting hurt. But going 75 down the freeway..

the need to root/jb will never diminish if for no other reason than to block ads

chrf097 said:

However LOADs of people get into rooting, flashing custom roms, jailbreaking, etc. while having 0% idea of what they're really doing. Just go look in xda-dev forums. There are many topics relating to people asking the most basic of ....

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I say it once more. When you start messing with your phone, you know exactly what you are doing. Period. You dont accidentally try to flash or root your phone. You have to know how to do it and accept the fact that it may go wrong. You dont accidentally plug your phone to you computer, start messing e.g. odin and files and put your phone to download mode etc. You know all the time what you are doing, but this doesnt mean that you can do flashing/rooting right.

mrex said:

I say it once more. When you start messing with your phone, you know exactly what you are doing. Period. You dont accidentally try to flash or root your phone. You have to know how to do it and accept the fact that it may go wrong. You dont accidentally plug your phone to you computer, start messing e.g. odin and files and put your phone to download mode etc. You know all the time what you are doing, but this doesnt mean that you can do flashing/rooting right.

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You definitely don't know all the time. Every single person who ever takes a trip into trying Custom ROMs and rooting does not have an extensive background knowledge of Android and how their device works and everything that most people on xda-developers do. Don't assume everyone knows everything. Just look on xda, there are obviously people who don't know what they're doing.

mrex said:

I say it once more. When you start messing with your phone, you know exactly what you are doing. Period. You dont accidentally try to flash or root your phone. You have to know how to do it and accept the fact that it may go wrong. You dont accidentally plug your phone to you computer, start messing e.g. odin and files and put your phone to download mode etc. You know all the time what you are doing, but this doesnt mean that you can do flashing/rooting right.

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I agree that you shouldn't start modifying your phone without doing the necessary research. But there are many people who don't; and because there are so many toolkits and scripts that do everything for you, they don't have to.

Stooby Mcdoobie said:

I agree that you shouldn't start modifying your phone without doing the necessary research. But there are many people who don't; and because there are so many toolkits and scripts that do everything for you, they don't have to.

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This debate started from here: chrf097: My phone has a locked boot loader because Verizon doesn't want to be held accountable for when I storm into their store screaming at them that my phone doesn't work after I deleted important system files.

That thing above doesnt happen accidentally, so I said it is impossible to delete system files without you start messing with your phone. And when you start messing with your phone, you know exactly what you are doing. This doesnt mean you do it right, but surely you know what are you doing. And hence it pointless to go to a store and whine that the phone doesnt work anymore. That didnt happen accidentally, the user knew he was messing with his phone.

Knowing what you are doing and doing it right are differend things. You cannot say that when a user is rooting/flashing his phone, the user doesnt know what he is doing. Sure he knows, but does he do it right, who knows...

Risco said:

I don't see the issue with locked boot loaders if you buy subsidised from a mobile provider. You need to remember the carrier will essentially have to provide support for the life of the contract and dealing with custom firmwares is a nightmare for tech support.

If you want a choice, it is really simple. Buy a phone out of contract and don't moan about the cost. You can then take as many risks as you want. People seem to forget that when you are getting a subsided phone you are paying for it over the entire length of the contract. What I do think should be allowed is the option to unlock the boot loader once the contract has been fulfilled.

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People who tend to root are probably not going to call tech support they usally kinda know what's going on .

chrf097 said:

You definitely don't know all the time. Every single person who ever takes a trip into trying Custom ROMs and rooting does not have an extensive background knowledge of Android and how their device works and everything that most people on xda-developers do. Don't assume everyone knows everything. Just look on xda, there are obviously people who don't know what they're doing.

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Even if you know what you are doing **** still can happen.