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Old Aug 8, 2014, 06:42 PM   #26
Michael Scrip
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Originally Posted by WissMAN View Post

I hear you about the contract thing. The deal was unlimited. But did the contract mention the speed at which said unlimited data would be sent at?

I for one would think it would/should be at the same speed as the majority so subscribers.
Exactly.

There are two factors in play here... amount and speed.

Carriers have typically only ever focused on the amount of data.

But they rarely say anything about the speed of that data.
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 06:42 PM   #27
sbailey4
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Originally Posted by -LikesMac- View Post
On topic: I can see this issue ending with all the major carriers just canceling any sort of grandfathered unlimited plans (well, except for T-mobile)...
Yep just what I was thinking. Easy fix for the carriers.
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 06:46 PM   #28
Koodauw
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I wouldn't be upset if the FCC dropped the hammer on ATT or Verizon for their throttling practices. Won't happen, but id like to see it.
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 06:49 PM   #29
gavroche
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Originally Posted by Michael Scrip View Post
Exactly.

There are two factors in play here... amount and speed.

Carriers have typically only ever focused on the amount of data.

But they rarely say anything about the speed of that data.
True... but speed affects the amount of data you can transfer. And I think it reasonable for someone to assume that current data transfer speed norms would hold true. In contract law, ambiguity is always construed in favor of the person whom did NOT write the contract. So unless your contract with the carrier specified some slower transfer rate than the majority of users, it would be reasonable to assume yours would be identical.
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 06:51 PM   #30
dredlew
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Originally Posted by gigapocket1 View Post
BIGGEST BS EVER... Lets throttle someone because they have used a lot of gigs so far... So what if they signed up for Unlimited data.. And so what if its 3 am and no one else is using the towers.. Lets still throttle their data... But ey.. if u go over to this plan.. And pay for more of our amazing fast data.. U can get those fast speeds all day long.. Its just stupid... AT&T and all the other carriers are able to renig on their end of the deal.. But as soon as we want to.. We have to pay the penalty...
That's not how Verizon plans on throttling the data, read it again. And to Verizon's defense, it's quite fair how they will do it. Just because some inconsidered prick with an unlimited plan (that he pays the same amount for as a "limited" plan) thinks he can hog all the data, does not mean he should be allowed to make everyone else's speed on that tower miserable.

Disclosure: I do have an unlimited plan but I'm fine with the throttling VZ proposes, it's completely reasonable.
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 07:03 PM   #31
Rocko1
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Have you ever been to an all you can eat buffet where after one plate they only allow 1/10th of a plate thereafter?

All you can drink but after 2 you get drips instead of a glass?
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 07:03 PM   #32
dredlew
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Originally Posted by WissMAN View Post
I hear you about the contract thing. The deal was unlimited. But did the contract mention the speed at which said unlimited data would be sent at?

I for one would think it would/should be at the same speed as the majority so subscribers.
Good point, speed is not unlimited nor guaranteed. I guess that's why VZ and the other carriers are operating within legal bounds when they do decide to throttle.

And as for being at the same speed; generally yes, that would be expected (and also the reason why VZ is doing this). However, there are providers (Switzerland comes to mind) that offer different speeds (within the LTE band) based on how much you pay.
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 07:06 PM   #33
Michael Scrip
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Originally Posted by gavroche View Post

True... but speed affects the amount of data you can transfer. And I think it reasonable for someone to assume that current data transfer speed norms would hold true. In contract law, ambiguity is always construed in favor of the person whom did NOT write the contract. So unless your contract with the carrier specified some slower transfer rate than the majority of users, it would be reasonable to assume yours would be identical.
Yeah... I don't know what the current unlimited contracts say... or if they even mention a specific data-rate.

I was just saying that the amount of data is what people think of when they hear unlimited... not speed.
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 07:10 PM   #34
theheadguy
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Originally Posted by kenroberts83 View Post
Fourthly, get ready for people who think that the government can both lower prices and improve services in an industry by decree. Also known as people who never made it past Econ 101.
Like how deregulating the airline industry helped everyone?
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 07:18 PM   #35
dredlew
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Originally Posted by gavroche View Post
True... but speed affects the amount of data you can transfer. And I think it reasonable for someone to assume that current data transfer speed norms would hold true. In contract law, ambiguity is always construed in favor of the person whom did NOT write the contract. So unless your contract with the carrier specified some slower transfer rate than the majority of users, it would be reasonable to assume yours would be identical.
I would have to read my contract again but I'm pretty certain that speed is NOT guaranteed in any way, shape or form. It's physically impossible. No one would open themselves up to such an easy lawsuit like this. - That applies to any kind of speed as a matter of fact. Anyone offering a product that involves speed, whether it's bandwidth, a car or your coffee machine, it will always be denominated with "UP TO whatever speed".
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 07:19 PM   #36
sbailey4
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Originally Posted by Rocko1 View Post
Have you ever been to an all you can eat buffet where after one plate they only allow 1/10th of a plate thereafter?

All you can drink but after 2 you get drips instead of a glass?
Bad example. Try this. You go to a buffet and the first plate the waitress brings is a platter then the rest of the plates on the actual buffet are 8" plates. You can STILL have unlimited food you just have to do it slower because you cannot fit as much on the 8" plate as the platter so it takes more trips. Perfectly OK and within their advertised parameters.
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 07:24 PM   #37
dannyyankou
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Did they even know other carriers were doing this before? Get your head out of the sand FCC! Glad they're finally talking about it though.
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 07:27 PM   #38
gavroche
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Originally Posted by dredlew View Post
I would have to read my contract again but I'm pretty certain that speed is NOT guaranteed in any way, shape or form. It's physically impossible. No one would open themselves up to such an easy lawsuit like this. - That applies to any kind of speed as a matter of fact. Anyone offering a product that involves speed, whether it's bandwidth, a car or your coffee machine, it will always be denominated with "UP TO whatever speed".
well, i see your point... But the problem for the carriers is that they have now gone on record saying they are in fact now giving you a SLOWER speed than all other users. And as I mentioned... if your contract when you signed up for unlimited data did not state that you would be treated differently than users in general... then you had a justifiable expectation to be treated the same.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scrip View Post
Yeah... I don't know what the current unlimited contracts say... or if they even mention a specific data-rate.

I was just saying that the amount of data is what people think of when they hear unlimited... not speed.
Yea, I agree
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 07:37 PM   #39
rrm74001
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I think the main problem here is we have a rather cynical/greedy outlook in regards to mobile carriers. Look at the plans that Verizon is currently offering for single lines:



UNLIMITED TALK
UNLIMITED TEXT
1GB DATA
$60 / MONTH
$15 / 500MB OVERAGE FEE

Seriously? At $60 per month, it should be at least 3GB or 4GB.

It seems to be that these carriers know people don't care about talk or text. PEOPLE WANT DATA. If their network really can't handle the load, they need to start upgrading. Times are changing. It is the year 2014. We are in a connected world.

Unfortunately, people are not going to say "no". Verizon will continue to give us less for more, and Verizon will continue to boast record profits each quarter.
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 07:37 PM   #40
FieldingMellish
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Guys, you can disclose something without announcing it's a disclosure. This includes it's variant, "full disclosure."
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 07:42 PM   #41
alent1234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrm74001 View Post
I think the main problem here is we have a rather cynical/greedy outlook in regards to mobile carriers. Look at the plans that Verizon is currently offering for single lines:

Image

UNLIMITED TALK
UNLIMITED TEXT
1GB DATA
$60 / MONTH
$15 / 500MB OVERAGE FEE

Seriously? At $60 per month, it should be at least 3GB or 4GB.

It seems to be that these carriers know people don't care about talk or text. PEOPLE WANT DATA. If their network really can't handle the load, they need to start upgrading. Times are changing. It is the year 2014. We are in a connected world.

Unfortunately, people are not going to say "no". Verizon will continue to give us less for more, and Verizon will continue to boast record profits each quarter.
same as charging a lot of money for texting 10 years ago
welcome to business 101 and upselling
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 07:46 PM   #42
gavroche
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Originally Posted by alent1234 View Post
same as charging a lot of money for texting 10 years ago
welcome to business 101 and upselling
Indeed. I remember too well how few minutes were included in plans, and how much overages of talk-time cost. Knew many people that didn't pay attention and ended up getting $500 phone bills. Fortunately, talk and text is all unlimited usually now. I would expect at some point all data will be as well.
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 08:11 PM   #43
GRSM-IE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrm74001 View Post
I think the main problem here is we have a rather cynical/greedy outlook in regards to mobile carriers. Look at the plans that Verizon is currently offering for single lines:

Image

UNLIMITED TALK
UNLIMITED TEXT
1GB DATA
$60 / MONTH
$15 / 500MB OVERAGE FEE

Seriously? At $60 per month, it should be at least 3GB or 4GB.

It seems to be that these carriers know people don't care about talk or text. PEOPLE WANT DATA. If their network really can't handle the load, they need to start upgrading. Times are changing. It is the year 2014. We are in a connected world.

Unfortunately, people are not going to say "no". Verizon will continue to give us less for more, and Verizon will continue to boast record profits each quarter.
In Ireland you pay 20euro and have unlimited data on pre-pay - on bill pay it's a 55 euro with unlimited everything.. www.three.ie

You guys in US should catch up...
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 08:21 PM   #44
solarguy17
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It will be interesting if the FCC actually bans the carriers from throttling. Then for everyone that quit the unlimited plan due to throttling, what do they get?
Could the FCC force the carriers to reopen the unlimited option to anyone that had the unlimited for a small amount of time, 1 month or so?
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 08:30 PM   #45
Rocko1
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Originally Posted by sbailey4 View Post
Bad example. Try this. You go to a buffet and the first plate the waitress brings is a platter then the rest of the plates on the actual buffet are 8" plates. You can STILL have unlimited food you just have to do it slower because you cannot fit as much on the 8" plate as the platter so it takes more trips. Perfectly OK and within their advertised parameters.
That's a horrible example. The throttled speed is insanely slow. That doesn't equate to a normal plate of food.

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Old Aug 8, 2014, 08:33 PM   #46
s2mikey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko1 View Post
Have you ever been to an all you can eat buffet where after one plate they only allow 1/10th of a plate thereafter?

All you can drink but after 2 you get drips instead of a glass?
That's an interesting analogy. I wonder if someone were to go to a buffet five times a week and sit there all day and night chowing down if the restaurant has a right to say something about it? What IS all you can eat?

Hmmm....
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 08:37 PM   #47
larrylaffer
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As someone who gets rate limited for the last week of each month on his AT&T iPhone, I welcome this development.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbailey4 View Post
Bad example. Try this. You go to a buffet and the first plate the waitress brings is a platter then the rest of the plates on the actual buffet are 8" plates. You can STILL have unlimited food you just have to do it slower because you cannot fit as much on the 8" plate as the platter so it takes more trips. Perfectly OK and within their advertised parameters.
You are of course joking, because equating the unusably slow speed at these imposed limits is much more of a restriction than an 8 inch plate.

You realize food can be stacked on top of itself, right?

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by s2mikey View Post
That's an interesting analogy. I wonder if someone were to go to a buffet five times a week and sit there all day and night chowing down if the restaurant has a right to say something about it? What IS all you can eat?

Hmmm....
This is a non-issue because no restaurant anywhere experiences FIVE PERCENT of their customer base doing this.
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 09:06 PM   #48
nostresshere
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The buffet comparison is nonsense.

Carriers throttle not because of financial reasons, but because of capacity. There is NOT an unlimited capacity.

Y'all are happy with the FCC getting into this. It will get resolved. Unlimited will go away. Happy now?
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 09:06 PM   #49
racer1441
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If the FCC wanted to be anything than the telecomm's call girl, they would insist that data rates are eliminated or pull ALL spectrum license. If that shuts down all of Verizon or ATT, so be it.
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 09:20 PM   #50
Michael Scrip
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Indeed. I remember too well how few minutes were included in plans, and how much overages of talk-time cost. Knew many people that didn't pay attention and ended up getting $500 phone bills. Fortunately, talk and text is all unlimited usually now. I would expect at some point all data will be as well.
I doubt we'll ever see a time when all data is unlimited. (*)

We've already seen voice minutes and text messages become so devalued that they just give them away. There are no more minutes and texting plans. (for smartphones anyway)

So data is the only thing left that they can charge you for. Data is what people want these days.

If Verizon's data plans start at $45 for 250MB... and go up to $750 for 100GB... where would they price a future unlimited data plan?

They still have to offer different pricing tiers for different kinds of customers. And since minutes and texts are now worthless... data is the thing that sets the price.

* This isn't like the old days when you had to get an unlimited data plan for your Blackberry. Back then it was easier for them to just tack $30 extra onto your bill and let you have access to the internet... rather than charging you a few cents each time you checked your email. Think of it like "always on" internet for a flat fee.

I had a $30/month unlimited data plan for my Blackberry... but that was on top on my $50/month for minutes and texts. (or higher... depending on how many minutes and texts I wanted)

Nowadays... data is the thing they charge for. It's basically the only thing they charge for anymore. And they'll charge according to how much data you want to use.
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