Why Apple Now Sucks for Creative Mac Users

MowingDevil · Aug 25, 2014

Instead of listening to what their longtime base wants they keep force feeding us what they want, to stream everything together into one big easy-to-use iOS bundle. All machines are "pro" whether their specs warrant it or not. Logic & FCP have been dumbed down to be advanced versions of GarageBand & iMovie respectively. Aperture is done, soon to be Photos (advanced version of iPhoto). I'm all for easy to use software & simple hardware but Apple shouldn't be neglecting it's pro community. It has the profits from it's iToys & cash reserves to break even or even take the odd loss on higher end products which will keep the company at the forefront (like it used to be).

I've written Apple a couple of times w/ no response.

Then there's how Tesla does things:
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1094037_tesla-ceo-elon-musks-personal-touch-secret-to-his-success?fbfanpage

barkmonster · Aug 25, 2014

I agree. A lot of their so called Pro apps should be bundled as freebies they're that dumbed down. Just look at what a trainwreck Logic X is for a lot of people on the App Store reviews. They even killed Logicnode when they took it 64 bit so instead of the advantage of both USB dongle-free operation and the ability to use additional systems for processing fx or software synths, people now have to invest in software like VE Pro 5 + 1 dongle per system.

iPhoto has always been pretty useless compared with software like Media Pro so I think if they're adding more features in a newer version, it's worth giving the new version a chance before writing it off first.

Their hardware on the other hand is mostly laptops or laptop-spec desktops apart from the Mac Pro. There's nothing between a glued together iMac and a bested by the iMac and Macbook on CPU power Mac Pro (without paying £3000+ for a hex core).

From the G3 to the original Mac Pro released in 2006, there was always an expandable, entry level desktop.

aristobrat · Aug 25, 2014

MowingDevil said:
Then there's how Tesla does things:
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1094037_tesla-ceo-elon-musks-personal-touch-secret-to-his-success?fbfanpage

Just to play devils advocate, I'm going to guess that the process of Elon listening and implementing feedback from his 50K customers probably isn't going to scale for him when he has 10x more customers, much less when he has 10,000x more customers (which would be the factor required to scale his customer count by for it to achieve parity with the number of Apple customers that have Apple IDs).

Both Steve Jobs and Tim Cook have replied to customers emails, like Elon Musk has. But I'm guessing that like Elon, they don't reply to every one that they receive, nor do they act upon every request that's emailed to them. So I'm not sure about the point you're trying to make with how Tesla does things. :?

phrehdd · Aug 25, 2014

I have to agree in general with the opinion of the original poster. I admit I get less and less happy with the direction Apple is going. - They are creating a zero confidence in Apple pro software products. I'll also say that their hardware is also becoming a bit suspect in the computer side of things.

Apple seems to be getting the GM mentality of depending on reputation and not really delivering on some of the goods. If Apple wants us in their "eco" system then provide us better choices and options rather than telling us what we need or want. There is no reason Apple couldn't design some of their software to have a light user mode and advanced pro mode. There is nothing new about creating tiered interfaces and modules that can be purchased later if needed. Shame on you Apple.

cube · Aug 25, 2014

It's not just Creatives, real power users have it worse, no laptop for them.

MowingDevil · Aug 25, 2014

barkmonster said:
iPhoto has always been pretty useless compared with software like Media Pro so I think if they're adding more features in a newer version, it's worth giving the new version a chance before writing it off first.

Improving iPhoto is great, my issue is why eliminate Aperture? What's next, Logic & FCP?

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aristobrat said:
Both Steve Jobs and Tim Cook have replied to customers emails, like Elon Musk has. But I'm guessing that like Elon, they don't reply to every one that they receive, nor do they act upon every request that's emailed to them. So I'm not sure about the point you're trying to make with how Tesla does things. :?

Tesla isn't perfect but they are shaking things up, "thinking differently" and appear to hear their customer base. Apple seems to be catering to trends, consumers of iToys, & not hearing their power-user base. Apple to iOS users, no doubt but where is the love for the Mac? How much R&D is delegated to the Mac vs the iPhone? The Mac updates are now rare whereas iOS seem to be non-stop. I'm all for that, but one doesn't have to be at the expense of the other. No wonder interest in desktops is waning w/ nothing exciting on the horizon. Just look at the rumor/news feed at this site. How long until it changes it's name to iosrumors.com? Might as well at this point.

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phrehdd said:
There is no reason Apple couldn't design some of their software to have a light user mode and advanced pro mode.

Logic has this feature, in fact it comes installed that way.

Meister · Aug 25, 2014

What hogwash! Take a look at the nMP.
The macbooks are all extremely powerfull and blow every winows machine away.

aristobrat · Aug 25, 2014

MowingDevil said:
Improving iPhoto is great, my issue is why eliminate Aperture? What's next, Logic & FCP?

Why not eliminate Aperture? Is there something that says "Creative Mac Users" can't use Adobe Light Room or PhaseOne Capture One Pro?

Honestly, it seems like Apple gave up the ghost on keep Aperture competitive about three years ago, and most of the "Creatives" have kept their Macs, but jumped to other products.

Tesla isn't perfect but they are shaking things up, "thinking differently" and appear to hear their customer base.

So your point is that Tesla listens to each and every customer, and there's not a group of dissatisfied Tesla customers that feel like the company hasn't listened to them?

Apple seems to be catering to trends, consumers of iToys, & not hearing their power-user base.

My guess is that Apple has always followed the lead of whatever segment brought in the most revenue. "Power-user base" had their turn. The "iPod base" followed. Now it's the "iOS base".

How much R&D is delegated to the Mac vs the iPhone? The Mac updates are now rare whereas iOS seem to be non-stop. I'm all for that, but one doesn't have to be at the expense of the other.

Well, you don't see OS X releases (on a 2-year cycle) being delayed to get a new yearly iOS out the door, so in that aspect, things are better than then were ~5 years ago. And now OS X is also on a yearly update cycle.

As for iPhone updates vs Mac updates, the smartphone update cycle is yearly (or faster), and that cycle was set well before Apple entered the smartphone market in 2007.

No wonder interest in desktops is waning w/ nothing exciting on the horizon. Just look at the rumor/news feed at this site.

So again with the devils advocate, what's exactly on the horizon from other desktop manufacturers? Are there [Dell, HP, Asus]Rumors sites that are jumping with desktop news?

To me, it seems like every article I've read over the last 3 years about desktops state that it's a declining market. And pretty much every quarterly report from Gartner and IDC has confirmed that.

Personally, I was surprised that Apple redesigned their product in a declining market. The MP3-player market is also declining, and Apple hasn't really done anything with the iPods designs in years. Why not let the old Mac Pro design ride out what's left of that market, instead of redesigning it from scratch, and making it in the US? Is that not throwing a bone to the power users?

MowingDevil · Aug 26, 2014

Meister said:
What hogwash! Take a look at the nMP.
The macbooks are all extremely powerfull and blow every winows machine away.

Believe what you wasn't but the components like the graphics card are outdated. The Current line is all about the looks, I'm not going to get into the details but decisions were made solely to get products skinnier. Pro users could care less abo the thinness and the line could have been even more powerful as a result. Apple = Form over function (to a large degree).

MowingDevil · Aug 26, 2014

aristobrat said:
Why not eliminate Aperture? Is there something that says "Creative Mac Users" can't use Adobe Light Room or PhaseOne Capture One Pro?

Honestly, it seems like Apple gave up the ghost on keep Aperture competitive about three years ago, and most of the "Creatives" have kept their Macs, but jumped to other products.

I didn't use Aperture but lots did. I really don't care though, my concern is the patterns regarding Logic & less so to FCP. Disturbing to say the least. If it keeps up, more will migrate to other DAWs. Trust me, this concern has rippled through the pro audio portion of the world I am involved with.

aristobrat said:
So your point is that Tesla listens to each and every customer, and there's not a group of dissatisfied Tesla customers that feel like the company hasn't listened to them?

No, I didn't say that. Try reading a little closer.

aristobrat said:
My guess is that Apple has always followed the lead of whatever segment brought in the most revenue. "Power-user base" had their turn. The "iPod base" followed. Now it's the "iOS base".

Well, you've tried to argue almost everything I've said but here you seem to accidentally be making my point for me here. While this is true, there's nothing preventing Apple from showing more love to the base that kept them alive all those years. They are one of the most profitable companies in the world. When is enough growth enough? Perhaps getting back to their roots would serve them well. Even if it was a loss leader they can certainly afford it.

aristobrat said:
So again with the devils advocate, what's exactly on the horizon from other desktop manufacturers? Are there [Dell, HP, Asus]Rumors sites that are jumping with desktop news?

To me, it seems like every article I've read over the last 3 years about desktops state that it's a declining market. And pretty much every quarterly report from Gartner and IDC has confirmed that.

It's a bit of the chicken & the egg w/ Apple. Forget the other brands. There's still legions of loyal Mac users out there. Perhaps if the line was refreshed a little more often (Mini hasn't been updated since 2012, iMac is long overdue) more people would shell out. Same goes for innovation, R&D etc. so by neglecting the line, more people are reluctant to buy & it's a vicious circle. Obviously, tablets have cut into this market.

maflynn · Aug 26, 2014

I have to agree that Apple definitely more consumer centric. They're focus is attending to the needs of the consumer more then the Pro. I'd say though the nMP is a nice move in the right direction for pros. Still the dumbing down of their apps show that they're not really looking to the pro market at all

roadbloc · Aug 26, 2014

I concur that Apple have been leaving the Pro and Creative markets behind in favour of the consumers. A shame really because Apple's pro/creative software used to be really powerful.

pedromcm.pm · Aug 26, 2014

Curiosity

Do you realize that Apple's Mac sales and respective profit on the Mac department are higher than ever, right?

You do also realize that despite everything you said, Apple's pro apps revenue and profit is greater than ever too, right? (Asymco has a great article on it).

Clearly you can't please everybody, and choices had to be made. Apple's previous pro apps (Aperture, FCP 7, Logic, even iWork) had a lot of bloat and old code and had to be rebuild from nothing. 20 years of app development had to be disposed.

It will take time, but Apple has been going in a straight line, full gas, focusing on it. Some features will make a come back (they have too), but those apps as an whole became so much better! It's thanks to those decisions and the iOS ecosystem that the Mac has been growing so much, despite a world that was previously dominated by Microsoft.

Another way to look at it is the following: People have to learn how to learn. It's as simple as that. Those IT folks that are burying themselves in IE8 and refuse to look ahead, those that do the same with FCP 3 or 4, Adobe Photoshop cc 5 etc. and always complaining DO NOT MATTER for any company that looks to the future, especially in a world where more and more people are computer literate. So you either adapt, or perish. Apple's approach and decisions do not fit with your goals? Change to other software, then. But most of the people that are complaining do it because they are lazy and would complain anyway. If they are Windows users, they are still on XP or maybe 7. On the Mac, they are running SL. Who cares about them? No one, as the current landscape + revenue + profit + business health shows.

One thing where I have to agree is that instead of throwing away money to shareholders, Apple could invest even more on projects like these and make things much better. Adobe and Microsoft aren't worthy of being benchmarks to beat, anyway, and the good folks at Cupertino have an endless river of resources and talent.

However, based on their results (not money in itself, but the quality of their line up, offerings, etc.) how can you do not agree and admire their approach? Before the iPhone, in 2007, they sold less than 5 million Macs during the year and some millions iPods. They focussed on their OSes and Pro apps.

They grew so much since then! They had to focus, while starting from scratch on some areas (like cloud and data center infrastructure, services) to improve their products and compete with companies that were emperors of that space (Google, MS).

eezacque · Aug 26, 2014

What worries me most about Apple is their total ignorance when it comes to service. Apple Stores seem to employ highschool kids, and AASPs seem to be more involved about shutting customers up than providing service. We have seen Nvidiagate, we see Radeongate, but Apple doesn't even care.

Over the past month, I have sent a fistful of mail about a logic board that didn't last very long, and probably was reflowed instead of replaced, and I have yet to receive one answer. Apple doesn't even seem to have the guts to openly face a complaining customer...

Liquorpuki · Aug 26, 2014

This is why I jumped ship awhile back

Apple's strategy for the past half a decade has been to use cheap software to drive hardware sales. It's why 90% of the iOS appstore is free. It's why Logic used to cost $800 and now it's $200. It's why they had no problem pulling features from iWork. They don't wanna overwhelm all the tech illiterate grandmas with features. Those grandmas get overwhelmed, they're not gonna put down $1000 for a new iMac

Meister · Aug 27, 2014

roadbloc said:
I concur that Apple have been leaving the Pro and Creative markets behind in favour of the consumers. A shame really because Apple's pro/creative software used to be really powerful.

I think this is a problem of semantic nature.

What do you mean with "pro" and "creative".

I am a professional (working with universtiy degree) who uses his macbook for work.
I also use it for various other (creative) things.

I have no complaints about it at all.
I also know various people who use their mbps and mbas for a living and noone is complaining.
Most of them use the basic mba and 13" rmbp configurations, because the vast majority of professionals does not need a dgpu, massive amounts of ram and a quadcore processor. Those are reserved for geeks and niche occupations.

What is it you want to do with your machine that it is not powerfull enough to do?

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MowingDevil said:
Believe what you wasn't but the components like the graphics card are outdated.

you can add external gpus via thunderbolt.
If you really need that kind of processing power, than I am sure that should be no problem.

roadbloc · Aug 27, 2014

Meister said:
I think this is a problem of semantic nature.

What do you mean with "pro" and "creative".

Excellent point. It is entirely subjective to what we call a 'pro' and 'creative.' I was personally thinking for the media side Apple had going with Final Cut and Logic Pro, which recent upgrades have upset a lot of users who work with audio and video.

But I can't say anything about that really, whereas I have previously worked in recording studios, I'm more of a Pro Tools sort of guy. And there are probably plenty of 'pros' who don't mind the recent upgrades to FCP.

For me, iWork's downgrade made me see that Apple's direction is more 'average consumer' rather than 'pro/creative' nowadays. I write fictional books for a living, technically a creative job but kinda dull when most of it is sat in front of a word processor. Anyway, when features I used in Pages were cut, I was mortified. That mortified that I converted all of my .pages files into .docx and never looked back.

OS X is still fine for the creative/professional. But instead of being able to use a complete Apple package many people did (and still do if it works for them), now I feel many will be using someone elses software under OS X. Because of Apple's decision to take their professional software in a more customer orientated direction.

aristobrat · Aug 27, 2014

MowingDevil said:
Improving iPhoto is great, my issue is why eliminate Aperture? What's next, Logic & FCP?

I think that's a little apples and oranges, in the sense that while Aperture NEEDS a major update, both Logic & FCP relatively recently got major updates (actually, complete rewrites).

You never know what Apple's going to do next, but off the top of my head, I can't think of the last time Apple invested millions into existing products (like the Logic & FCP rewrites) only to eliminate those products shortly thereafter.

MowingDevil said:
They are one of the most profitable companies in the world. When is enough growth enough? Perhaps getting back to their roots would serve them well. Even if it was a loss leader they can certainly afford it.

They saw fit to "afford" to spend millions of dollars rewriting Logic & FCP (and redesigning the Mac Pro), even though none of those products have anything to do with the 'iOS device' base (which is currently bringing in the lions share of revenue).

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roadbloc said:
OS X is still fine for the creative/professional. But instead of being able to use a complete Apple package many people did (and still do if it works for them), now I feel many will be using someone elses software under OS X. Because of Apple's decision to take their professional software in a more customer orientated direction.

I completely agree with that!

I just don't think that a creative Mac user having to use non-Apple software on their Mac makes Apple a sucky platform (per the OP's thread title).

MowingDevil · Aug 27, 2014

Meister said:
you can add external gpus via thunderbolt.
If you really need that kind of processing power, than I am sure that should be no problem.

True but that's besides the point. Optimally there should be two lines of software & hardware & never the two shall meet. The toys w/ easy free software that drives revenue and power machines + software that push boundaries and take skill & effort to master. The Mac Pro is a great example of this. The obsession w/ thinness is not. Adding drummer personalities like Jesse & Nikki to GarageBand is a great idea! Integrating them into Logic is a joke.

MowingDevil · Aug 27, 2014

aristobrat said:
I think that's a little apples and oranges, in the sense that while Aperture NEEDS a major update, both Logic & FCP relatively recently got major updates (actually, complete rewrites).

You never know what Apple's going to do next, but off the top of my head, I can't think of the last time Apple invested millions into existing products (like the Logic & FCP rewrites) only to eliminate those products shortly thereafter.

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They saw fit to "afford" to spend millions of dollars rewriting Logic & FCP (and redesigning the Mac Pro), even though none of those products have anything to do with the 'iOS device' base (which is currently bringing in the lions share of revenue).

The rewrites are fine, and welcome. Removing high end features that are effective is not. Logic & FC are slick, no doubt, but the skeuomorphic direction in Logic is a bit puzzling as Ive is set against that. The drumming personalities are another story. I'm sure some FCP users can chime in on the loss of features there. Look at the direction iWork took to align itself w/ iOS. Removing FireWire from the entire MBP line was a slap in the face to creative pros who bought into the protocol. How many cameras, audio interfaces & external HDs are out there & working perfectly fine. I understand moving on to TB but it would have been nice to have left *one* higher end machine in the lineup w/ FW. Afterall, Apple was the one selling everyone on this technology. Adapters are not ideal.

aristobrat said:
I just don't think that a creative Mac user having to use non-Apple software on their Mac makes Apple a sucky platform (per the OP's thread title).

That's fine, it's not I don't use non-Apple software to begin with. You are, however, cherry picking a little. I wasn't solely discussing the platform. I was discussing the entire Apple package & direction. That includes the software.

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roadbloc said:
Excellent point. It is entirely subjective to what we call a 'pro' and 'creative.' I was personally thinking for the media side Apple had going with Final Cut and Logic Pro, which recent upgrades have upset a lot of users who work with audio and video.

But I can't say anything about that really, whereas I have previously worked in recording studios, I'm more of a Pro Tools sort of guy. And there are probably plenty of 'pros' who don't mind the recent upgrades to FCP.

For me, iWork's downgrade made me see that Apple's direction is more 'average consumer' rather than 'pro/creative' nowadays. I write fictional books for a living, technically a creative job but kinda dull when most of it is sat in front of a word processor. Anyway, when features I used in Pages were cut, I was mortified. That mortified that I converted all of my .pages files into .docx and never looked back.

OS X is still fine for the creative/professional. But instead of being able to use a complete Apple package many people did (and still do if it works for them), now I feel many will be using someone elses software under OS X. Because of Apple's decision to take their professional software in a more customer orientated direction.

^^^This. That's just the thing, I switched from Cubase & ProTools to Logic. Now perhaps I'll consider DP or PT again. For higher end stuff (like Max) you need to look elsewhere anyways. That's always been a given. I imagine more video pros now are considering Avid or Premiere instead. I have no real issues w/ OSX.

dan1eln1el5en · Aug 27, 2014

BS most of this...
use a Windows machine for 10 minutes and you will see what "pro" users are missing from that.

on a Mac it's the same as always...it works.

drag and drop is everywhere. batch renaming, comes with build in software to make those quick edits....windows do not.

the software...haven't everyone moved on to Creative Cloud by now ? if not, well most of the Apple software is pretty decent. give me one app one windows that surpass a piece of software that you don't have on OS X.
Yes OS X is not perfect, but as long as Windows is your alternative, there is none.

skottichan · Aug 27, 2014

As a graphic designer, Apple has NEVER been interested in my market. They've never made a software package like Photoshop or Illustrator, yet when I did an internship at a print house, there were iMacs and MacPros, everywhere.

I get it that you fee betrayed that Apple realized they couldn't compete with Light Room and shuttered Aperture. I have to hear it all the time from my little brother, who's a professional photographer. What was Apple to do? Keep throwing money at it while it became less and less relevant?

LethalWolfe · Aug 27, 2014

roadbloc said:
I concur that Apple have been leaving the Pro and Creative markets behind in favour of the consumers. A shame really because Apple's pro/creative software used to be really powerful.

Apple's hardware offerings have never been top of the line though. By that I mean Apple led a lot of 'desktop revolutions' (desktop publishing, desktop audio recording, desktop video editing, desktop DVD authoring, desktop color grading, etc.,) where they introduced off-the-shelf hardware & software that was good enough, and relatively inexpensive, into markets that traditionally required specialized hardware that was very expensive.

I don't think it's as much Apple leaving the pro market's behind as much as it is that sections of pro market that 'grew up' with Apple are now outgrowing Apple. Apple was never in the 'big iron' hardware businesses and I think they see traditional desktops as being the new big iron.

Meister said:
I think this is a problem of semantic nature.

What do you mean with "pro" and "creative".

I think it's a semantic problem as well as knowing that there is a difference between a professional and a professional quality tool. For example, I edit for a living and I used to use iDVD to make quick DVD screeners to send off to clients for review. I wouldn't call iDVD professional grade software but it was used in a professional setting because it was good enough for the task at hand (and free).

you can add external gpus via thunderbolt.
If you really need that kind of processing power, than I am sure that should be no problem.

Thunderbolt 2 is only 4x PCIe (IIRC) while GPUs are 16x. So while you can put a GPU in an enclosure and attach it via ThB 2 you will only get a fraction of the power of that GPU.

maflynn · Aug 28, 2014

LethalWolfe said:
Apple's hardware offerings have never been top of the line though.

Back in the day, there was a brief period where the PPC platform really was excellent

Moto/IBM just didn't have the desire, money or intention of pushing the PPC platform faster and faster.

LethalWolfe · Aug 28, 2014

maflynn said:
Back in the day, there was a brief period where the PPC platform really was excellent

Moto/IBM just didn't have the desire, money or intention of pushing the PPC platform faster and faster.

Late 90's Apple did have some fast desktops, what I meant by top of the line though (and I might have chosen my words carefully) was workstation class machines and/or proprietary builds.. Prior to the various desktop revolutions I mentioned many times you would need a workstation class machine and/or specialized hardware where as Apple led the way with doing similar types of work using off-the-shelf desktop computers.

For example, way back in the day I worked at a facility that had one Smoke system and it had to be run on an SGI Octane computer running IRIX (IIRC). A few years later Smoke could be run on a desktop computer (for those that couldn't afford the 'big iron' SGI machine) and these days Smoke can be run on a laptop.

Why Apple Now Sucks for Creative Mac Users

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