With Broadwell Getting Delayed I Can't Decide What To Do

leman · Aug 26, 2014

vish26 said:
For a Normal Average user who is just into APPS, heavy web surfing, occasional Gaming, Movies etc...will he feel the difference between having a Iris pro current model and a Broadwell Machine?" Does it matter to him if it is Iris Pro or Broadwell or Skylake or whatever... Has it already reached a level where an average user will not even explore half potential of what already Iris Pro is capable of...So "In everyday use will one, notice any difference" can you guys say anything about this ? If in normal use would it make any difference if it is Iris Pro or Broadwell ? Will the average user anyways notice any difference ? so is it worth waiting for Broadwell, if the average user is not going to notice any difference between Iris Pro and Broadwell !!

If someone is playing games, they will definitively notice a difference between Broadwell's IGP and the Haswell IGP. With 'Games' here, I mean things like Minecraft, Starcraft 2 etc.

vish26 · Aug 26, 2014

prymitywista said:
- and with broadwell you won't turn back from candy yosemite anymore, now you've got change to stay with maverick ))

No didn't understand this !

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AnonDP said:
#2 - Forget Broadwell for a second, would the current machine hinder your productivity/usage in anyway. Just because Broadwell is released in 6-9 months it doesnt affect the performance of Haswell.

Yes, But since I said I wanted to future protect myself with atleast having a IGPU which is very recent so as to do quite a bit of things which is just a notch less than the DGPU. And since with Broadwell the IGPU Performance will reach new heights it kinds of keeps enticing me...

AnonDP said:
#3 - Many wont even tell the difference between the two (if you are not a heavy user/gamer).

I am definitely not a heavy gamer, but ye I love my occasional Gaming so will a Haswell not fall short of giving me that Gaming Experience ? When compared to Broadwell ? I dont think other than FOR Games I need a very high end IGPU !

AnonDP said:
#5 - In the absolute worst case scenario if Broadwell ends up being the greatest thing since sliced cheese delicately composed on a rare top-side beef burger, then you will have flip the Haswell and pass it off as depreciation.

In India the Resale Value is not as high as in the U.S. Any used product even if it is Apple does not fetch very good resale value. The Product depreciates hugely close to around 60-70% even Apple Products !!

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Steve121178 said:
Don't buy it then.

No I do want to buy it. Owning a rMBP is a Passion...is a Desire...is a Proud Feeling....

though it is a different thing, that my life has not stuck because of it.

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kappaknight said:
No, for an average user, it will not matter. For an average user, you can buy a computer from 2009 and it will do all the things you need to do.

I dont mean I am that an average user

with Average user I mean without doing 3d Modelling, Using rMBP for Film Editing or Engineering Architecure Modelling...Heavy Gaming...Like some of the College and school Kids are hooked on to it. I am not that a Gamer I am in my early 30's

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maflynn said:
Definitely, my kids are using a 2010 laptop, my wife and other daughter use a 2009 era Mac Mini.

I think for typical apps, i.e., facebook, surfing, email, office apps. There's no reason to delay the purchase.

And how about some reasonable Gaming ?

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TacticalDesire said:
Just buy the ****ing laptop now and quit waiting. For what you do there is no point in waiting and there will always be something better around the corner.

Just wanna equip myself with some reasonable modern technology for atleast 3-4 years don't see myself upgrading rMBP every 1-2 years. Unlike U.S it is a big hassle to get your old stuff off at good price. Unless you are ready to give it away to peanut price.

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leman said:
If someone is playing games, they will definitively notice a difference between Broadwell's IGP and the Haswell IGP. With 'Games' here, I mean things like Minecraft, Starcraft 2 etc.

How about Games which are a level low, a Notch less then the one's that you have mentioned in that scenario how will Iris Pro Graphic in Haswell deal with it ?

kappaknight · Aug 26, 2014

C'mon - you obviously know there's a prestige to owning these things. Prestige doesn't come from shoddy products, and certainly not ones you have to replace every 2 years.

Many of us on this forum upgrade because we want to, not because we have to. When upgrade and sell mine, they usually run just as fast as day-one; and they still go for a good chunk of change.

If you were to buy any of the rMBP's today, I'm pretty sure it'll last you 4-8 years if you want it to.

vish26 · Aug 26, 2014

kappaknight said:
C'mon - you obviously know there's a prestige to owning these things. Prestige doesn't come from shoddy products, and certainly not ones you have to replace every 2 years.

Many of us on this forum upgrade because we want to, not because we have to. When upgrade and sell mine, they usually run just as fast as day-one; and they still go for a good chunk of change.

If you were to buy any of the rMBP's today, I'm pretty sure it'll last you 4-8 years if you want it to.

I don't have any doubts in the working or efficiency or quality of the products that Apple makes. All I am saying is, since I don't wanna go with a Dedicated Graphics Card Machine, atleast for the Integrated one, I would like to buy one which has the very latest IGPU which can handle most things perfectly including some decent semi high end games.

augustya · Aug 26, 2014

vish26 said:
I would like to buy one which has the very latest IGPU which can handle most things perfectly including some decent semi high end games.

Well, you can still play some semi-high, and some high end games at a low FPS so it will not really be totally unplayable even on the Current IRIS PRO Graphic Card Haswell rMBP.

Samuelsan2001 · Aug 27, 2014

Iris Pro is the best iGPU

The iGPU in the 15 inch Macbook is the best money can currently buy.

The roadmap for broadwell indicates a mid 2015 release for the chips that will replace these with a new iGPU.

So Your choice is simple, wait 9 months or get the current one and have Nine months of the best iGPU around.

Yixian · Aug 27, 2014

I think the issue here is that even as a casual gamer these days, you require quite a lot of power. Even if gaming is not your top priority, if it is in the list of things you want to do with your laptop at all, then it is from the average consumer what will tax the machine the most. Casual gamers play the same games as hardcore gamers, just less.

In most cases over the last few years Apple have released laptops that are more or less incapable of doing justice to modern games. Now and then, a breakthrough from Intel or someone will hit the sweet spot for Apple and be included in a revision, and for a brief time there will be a portable Mac that actually runs games quite well. Some of us just try to figure out when that brief "golden age" will be because as the CPUs and RAM etc. are basically always up to scratch, the one thing that usually isn't is the graphics.

I am in a similar boat to OP, but I have been in this boat every time I've wanted to upgrade my laptop. First we look to see what the current generation can do, usually that is pretty disappointing, so then we try to find out if the next update is likely to change things significantly.

In other words, I think what OP wants to know is not that the Broadwell IGPU will be 20% faster on paper, but if the real world experience of playing modern games is going to be noticeably different - ie. will he be able to enjoy nice smooth fps on high settings. Because whether you are hardcore or casual, that's generally your idea of a "baseline", just as you wouldn't go to the cinema and expect a movie to be pixilated or stutter.

Particularly for myself, with a 2013 MBA, I already own one of those "sweet spot" portables, this machine has way outperformed it's predecessor, and currently the MBP doesn't offer any real world advantage, so I'm looking to see if Broadwell will be a meaningful improvement.

vish26 · Aug 27, 2014

Yixian said:
In other words, I think what OP wants to know is not that the Broadwell IGPU will be 20% faster on paper, but if the real world experience of playing modern games is going to be noticeably different - ie. will he be able to enjoy nice smooth fps on high settings. Because whether you are hardcore or casual, that's generally your idea of a "baseline", just as you wouldn't go to the cinema and expect a movie to be pixilated or stutter.

If the Broadwell IGPU is faster on paper obviously it will also be faster in real world scenario of playing games. I just want to know except for Games if I am not in to hardcore professional activities which require High Graphics card, it is only for games that I would require a Broadwell kinda IGPU and when compared the IGPU of current Haswell (Iris Pro) versus the IGPU of Broadwell are we going to see a difference of Day and Night in terms of Gaming Experience. A classic comparison here would be can all the games which can be played smoothly on Haswell, can those Games also work on the earlier Sandy Bridge Machines would be interesting to find out.

Samuelsan2001 · Aug 27, 2014

We won't know until broadwell is released

To be honest until we get those lovely new macbook pros in our sticky little hands we won't have any idea wether the gaming performance will be any better, as gaming has a lot to do with drivers the support for your iGPU may well be the deciding factor.

The iris pro outperforms the 750M in a fair few benchmarks with optimised drivers and software but is just about universally spanked in gaming benchmarks anything CUDA optimised etc etc.

Wether the gains in broadwell will be offset by bad drivers and support is yet to be seen.

As for the obsession over gaming performance a quick look at the stats on steam will show that most people casually game on specs well below the current macbook specs any way you look at it.

Paradoxally · Aug 27, 2014

vish26 said:
If the Broadwell IGPU is faster on paper obviously it will also be faster in real world scenario of playing games. I just want to know except for Games if I am not in to hardcore professional activities which require High Graphics card, it is only for games that I would require a Broadwell kinda IGPU and when compared the IGPU of current Haswell (Iris Pro) versus the IGPU of Broadwell are we going to see a difference of Day and Night in terms of Gaming Experience. A classic comparison here would be can all the games which can be played smoothly on Haswell, can those Games also work on the earlier Sandy Bridge Machines would be interesting to find out.

Of course they can. They even also run on 2009 Macs with a Core 2 Duo and NVIDIA 9600M...on 640x480 and on low, but they do (talking about v. high end games here)!

Here's the thing: Apple's Macs aren't really meant for gaming. The GPUs in their machines are decent (better if you get the DGPU model, obviously), but you will get much better performance by purchasing a Windows desktop (or building one yourself) or high-end laptop like a Toshiba Qosmio.

GPUs in Apple Macs are great for video editing and the like because they're backed by a great CPU (generally an Intel i5 or i7 on higher end models), lots of RAM (8 GB+) and a very fast SSD. For games....not so much. Casual gamers are fine, hardcore gamers look elsewhere.

Provided that's not the only thing you want to do with the laptop, however, and you're not going to be running really high-end games, the 15" Retina IGPU MBP should handle most games pretty well with mid settings (YMMV). This is considering a Bootcamp environment with Windows 7 (typical PC gamer operating system setup).

SAdProZ · Aug 27, 2014

vish26 said:
that is not a very good idea, In India the Resale Value of a Product (So what even if it is Apple, depreciates at a Rate of more than 60%-70% annualy) for a machine I would be spending close to around $2000 would not even fetch me $600 If I try to resale it after a year, I mean I would struggle to get even that Much.

How fortunate of youbuy the $600, one-year-old rMBP (which are essentially identical, you could not tell the difference). Use that for 1-2 years and should you then want a Broadwell you could sell the Haswell for some cash back, to a store or friend.

If we (US) could buy $600 rMBPs we'd be buying them on that 1-2 year old cycle, and never new. Only suckers would buy them new at such a market loss.

Yixian · Aug 27, 2014

Paradoxally said:
GPUs in Apple Macs are great for video editing and the like because they're backed by a great CPU (generally an Intel i5 or i7 on higher end models), lots of RAM (8 GB+) and a very fast SSD. For games....not so much. Casual gamers are fine, hardcore gamers look elsewhere.

Whilst I agree that all Apple laptops perform incredibly well for these tasks, plus everyday tasks, when it comes to gaming I think we need to accept that the difference between casual and hardcore is not what it once was.

Casual gamers and hardcore gamers play the same games: WoW, CoD, StarCraft, Diablo etc. it's just that hardcore gamers play them... For longer periods of time etc.

In terms of what they want from the performance, I'm pretty sure that these days everyone wants the bells and whistles turned on and a decent fps.

I do some web and graphic design, some sound editing etc. and my MacBook Air cuts through it all like butter. The only thing that the majority of consumers will be stressing their Macs with is actually, gaming, and that's not just a tiny subset of nerds, that's a huge portion of people that will only increase.

So yeah I do understand why people have a dilemma when buying new Macs and I do hope that Apple does at some point tip the balance a little more towards the performance side of things. I'm not asking for some ridiculous Alienware machine, but I'm a little bit tired of.. the bare minimum tbh. I know Intel's IGPUs have been a bit of a disappointment for many years but even back when the Pros all had dGPUs, Apple would tend to ignore better GPUs that easily could have fit in the machines.

vish26 · Aug 27, 2014

Yixian said:
Whilst I agree that all Apple laptops perform incredibly well for these tasks, plus everyday tasks, when it comes to gaming I think we need to accept that the difference between casual and hardcore is not what it once was.

Casual gamers and hardcore gamers play the same games: WoW, CoD, StarCraft, Diablo etc. it's just that hardcore gamers play them... For longer periods of time etc.

In terms of what they want from the performance, I'm pretty sure that these days everyone wants the bells and whistles turned on and a decent fps.

I do some web and graphic design, some sound editing etc. and my MacBook Air cuts through it all like butter. The only thing that the majority of consumers will be stressing their Macs with is actually, gaming, and that's not just a tiny subset of nerds, that's a huge portion of people that will only increase.

So yeah I do understand why people have a dilemma when buying new Macs and I do hope that Apple does at some point tip the balance a little more towards the performance side of things. I'm not asking for some ridiculous Alienware machine, but I'm a little bit tired of.. the bare minimum tbh. I know Intel's IGPUs have been a bit of a disappointment for many years but even back when the Pros all had dGPUs, Apple would tend to ignore better GPUs that easily could have fit in the machines.

You sound like a right person to answer this more elaborately then anyone else because of the work you do...you said You do some web and graphic design, some sound editing etc...and you kind of re-emphasise my point that, it is only for serious gaming that a more powerful GPU comes handy for rest all things most of the current line of Mac's are more then capable. since you say that even your MacBook Air cuts it all like butter right? So even for a moment If I were to consider the current 15 inch Haswell Machine one with only the IGPU you are saying the kind of work you do, can be done with no lag and stutter in the current rMBP right ? is that what you are saying ? Gaming may take a beating ?

Yixian · Aug 27, 2014

vish26 said:
You sound like a right person to answer this more elaborately then anyone else because of the work you do...you said You do some web and graphic design, some sound editing etc...and you kind of re-emphasise my point that, it is only for serious gaming that a more powerful GPU comes handy for rest all things most of the current line of Mac's are more then capable. since you say that even your MacBook Air cuts it all like butter right? So even for a moment If I were to consider the current 15 inch Haswell Machine one with only the IGPU you are saying the kind of work you do, can be done with no lag and stutter in the current rMBP right ? is that what you are saying ? Gaming may take a beating ?

Unless you are working with 4k video, multiple massive resolution images or 3D, that will be as good as a desktop for most tasks.

The only exception is gaming. On bootcamp you will have ok results, on OS X they will be disappointing. I am playing through Diablo 3 RoS on my MBA 2013 and it plays fine on medium settings but no AA, not native res, nothing flashy etc. For an MBA, that's great, the issue is that the 13" MBPs don't seem to offer anything above that.

vish26 · Aug 27, 2014

Yixian said:
Unless you are working with 4k video, multiple massive resolution images or 3D, that will be as good as a desktop for most tasks.

With Massive Resolution how much size do you mean ? I don't see myself doing any 3D modelling thing on the 15 inch Iris Pro rMBP but if I were to do it, That would not work is what you are saying ?

Yixian · Aug 28, 2014

vish26 said:
With Massive Resolution how much size do you mean ? I don't see myself doing any 3D modelling thing on the 15 inch Iris Pro rMBP but if I were to do it, That would not work is what you are saying ?

To be honest you'd probably be able to do a fair bit of 3D modelling too, really there's not much that strains a computer the way gaming does. 4k video is one, and by massive resolution I mean multiple 4k+ images in Photoshop probably.

Paradoxally · Aug 28, 2014

Yixian said:
So yeah I do understand why people have a dilemma when buying new Macs and I do hope that Apple does at some point tip the balance a little more towards the performance side of things. I'm not asking for some ridiculous Alienware machine, but I'm a little bit tired of.. the bare minimum tbh. I know Intel's IGPUs have been a bit of a disappointment for many years but even back when the Pros all had dGPUs, Apple would tend to ignore better GPUs that easily could have fit in the machines.

Except it's not exactly the bare minimum. Look at Windows notebooks, most of them with high specs and same price range as the 13" rMBP are humongous 15-17" machines that don't even have an SSD (e.g. HP Envy or Toshiba Qosmios) so they will be slower. However, they do have a great GPU and CPU, etc...because people mostly buy Windows laptops in this range for portable gaming. Macs, not so much.

An SSD works wonders for everything, but for gamers, do they really care about some increased load times when their GPU is probably 10x better than any of the Mac line except the dGPU 15"?

Different priorities, really. I would take a 128 GB SSD (or any size) over a dGPU any day of the week because the Iris Pro iGPU is pretty decent for everything else and most tasks on OS X are not gaming at all (personally, I never game on OS X, keeping a separate partition for W7). Of course, I can buy a Windows laptop for much less than a rMBP and then put a SSD in it, but the lack of OS X turns me off and it's not that easy to hackintosh a laptop.

vish26 · Aug 28, 2014

Yixian said:
To be honest you'd probably be able to do a fair bit of 3D modelling too, really there's not much that strains a computer the way gaming does. 4k video is one, and by massive resolution I mean multiple 4k+ images in Photoshop probably.

How about some Light Control Software which are used in Live Music Performances and Concerts how would the IGPU 15 inch rMBP perform in that area ?

Also if you know if any of these DJ software like Ableton or Traktor which does well on this ? How do these DJing software work on the IGPU rMBP ?

Yixian · Aug 29, 2014

vish26 said:
How about some Light Control Software which are used in Live Music Performances and Concerts how would the IGPU 15 inch rMBP perform in that area ?

Also if you know if any of these DJ software like Ableton or Traktor which does well on this ? How do these DJing software work on the IGPU rMBP ?

Honestly I really don't know re these tasks, do they traditionally make much use for the GPU? Instinctively I wouldn't have thought so but this is outside my area tbh.

With Broadwell Getting Delayed I Can't Decide What To Do

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