If iPhone 6 gets NFC now, it will make Paypal more powerful than ever!

Bobby Corwen · Aug 29, 2014

The future of mobile payments --I have seen it, and its not with phone devices or physical proof of funds.

It is with a simple phone number, and PIN like how Paypal does it.

Everyone is talking about a device and scanning it at a counter (to leave wallets at home) but that is still an unnecessary step in the evolution.

The way its gonna be, is already here, minus the mass awareness and implementation of it. You can leave both your wallet and your phone in your pocket!

1) Touch Pay with Paypal button on card reader.
2) Enter mobile cell phone number on numeric pad.
3) Enter 4 digit pin.
4) Take receipt.

All this will do is make Paypal the most powerful way to pay on earth because Apple will bring awareness to it, and maybe it will take off, but as soon as the masses look into it, and try Paypal, and word gets out, it will be the thing that dominates the next decade, not an awkward phone scanning thing.

The only reason Paypal Checkout isn't gaining momentum is because the mainstream doesn't know about it. (I used it at Home Depot and the cashier said he never saw someone use it before lol)

It looks like this big push from Apple will change that.

Not sure how it works with the software on most card readers in stores but if it takes off, all the merchants would need is a new pay with paypal button in the existing software vs NFC would need specialized hardware every time on a mass scale.

It would be years until people start seeing them in all their favorite stores and setting up their iPhones to pay.

But Paypal could just swoop in at some point one year if they can advertise it somehow.

jlake02 · Aug 29, 2014

I doubt Apple is working with PayPal in such a manner... but of course I could be wrong.

If anything, Apple's entry into the space is a threat to PayPal, not a huge opportunity, IMHO.

:apple:

Bobby Corwen · Aug 29, 2014

jlake02 said:
I doubt Apple is working with PayPal in such a manner... but of course I could be wrong.

If anything, Apple's entry into the space is a threat to PayPal, not a huge opportunity, IMHO.

Not saying that they are working together. eBay/Paypal have a monopoly on internet commerce so they have their own empire.

But nobody but Apple has enough "influence" to change the way the masses do things. So Paypal couldn't do this alone. No other company could make NFC a "thing." They need Apple to do their thing first to bring awareness.

But then they are in a position to steal the show if enough people start to pay attention to mobile payments is what Im saying.

Theres a certain short sightedness to basing mobile payments around a physical thing like a device when the goal is a dramatic improvement in convenience to the point where people are willing to change how they pay for things on a mass scale.

iBanker · Aug 29, 2014

Bobby Corwen said:
Everyone is talking about a device and scanning it at a counter (to leave wallets at home) but that is still an unnecessary step in the evolution.

So you to simplify me scanning my phone, you want me to instead enter my phone number and then a PIN? You're just replacing steps with other steps. Personally, I'd rather scan than have to enter my number and a PIN and wait for it to clear.

The best implementation I've seen was at Starbucks: just scan from Passbook and you're done. Given that a lot of people are on their phones while in line anyways (and that there is a window to take out your phone while the cashier is scanning items), it's not really as big of a chore as you make it seem to take out your phone.

Also I don't think Apple would use Paypal - it doesn't need to. Apple already has a huge database of credit cards and there were predictions that it would create its own mobile payment system around the time Passbook came out (I think this is still on its way). If Apple undercuts Paypal's fees, I'm sure a lot of vendors would be open to adopting its method rather than Paypal's.

Bobby Corwen · Aug 29, 2014

iBanker said:
So you to simplify me scanning my phone, you want me to instead enter my phone number and then a PIN? You're just replacing steps with other steps. Personally, I'd rather scan than have to enter my number and a PIN and wait for it to clear.

The best implementation I've seen was at Starbucks: just scan from Passbook and you're done. Given that a lot of people are on their phones while in line anyways (and that there is a window to take out your phone while the cashier is scanning items), it's not really as big of a chore as you make it seem to take out your phone.

Also I don't think Apple would use Paypal - it doesn't need to. Apple already has a huge database of credit cards and there were predictions that it would create its own mobile payment system around the time Passbook came out (I think this is still on its way). If Apple undercuts Paypal's fees, I'm sure a lot of vendors would be open to adopting its method rather than Paypal's.

So every time i visit a new merchant I have to get their specific app? No Im talking mass implementation everywhere, every store. Gas stations even.

And then in some cases I have to hand my personal phone device to strangers to touch for a scan depending on where the scanner is?

Um, I don't think I want to do that. Sure I left my wallet at home, but Passbook is no more convenient than swiping a card and clicking no to cash back and yes the amount is correct. You still gotta have the physical thing and/or you're still gonna be pushing buttons on a pad.

I still have to prep the sale on my device too.

With mobile checkout, its not replacing steps with other steps, its replacing it with more versatile and convenient steps involving not needing ANYTHING in your pockets and maintaining security via a PIN. And no, you don't wait for anything to clear. Its instant.

Nobody can steal your Paypal because its not a physical thing and nobody even knows you have an account. A debit card can be easily stolen and charged as credit, or debit if they put a gun to your head and get your PIN after they see it. Passbook can be stolen if they put a gun to your head to get your iPhone code and use it before you have a chance to report it.

Passbook/NFC is the one that is, like you said, the card replacement. Replacing one thing with the other.

Mobile payment is the evolution that is significant enough that it could make an impact of changes on a massive scale.

Theres nothing stopping Apple from coming up with a similar device-less checkout system and until Apple makes the push first, nobody is making any progress. But whomever wins the Mobile Phone number/PIN checkout race for mass implementation will control the mobile payment future.

Neokiller309 · Aug 29, 2014

Bobby Corwen said:
The future of mobile payments --I have seen it, and its not with phone devices or physical proof of funds.

It is with a simple phone number, and PIN like how Paypal does it.

Everyone is talking about a device and scanning it at a counter (to leave wallets at home) but that is still an unnecessary step in the evolution.

The way its gonna be, is already here, minus the mass awareness and implementation of it. You can leave both your wallet and your phone in your pocket!

1) Touch Pay with Paypal button on card reader.
2) Enter mobile cell phone number on numeric pad.
3) Enter 4 digit pin.
4) Take receipt.

All this will do is make Paypal the most powerful way to pay on earth because Apple will bring awareness to it, and maybe it will take off, but as soon as the masses look into it, and try Paypal, and word gets out, it will be the thing that dominates the next decade, not an awkward phone scanning thing.

The only reason Paypal Checkout isn't gaining momentum is because the mainstream doesn't know about it. (I used it at Home Depot and the cashier said he never saw someone use it before lol)

It looks like this big push from Apple will change that.

Not sure how it works with the software on most card readers in stores but if it takes off, all the merchants would need is a new pay with paypal button in the existing software vs NFC would need specialized hardware every time on a mass scale.

It would be years until people start seeing them in all their favorite stores and setting up their iPhones to pay.

But Paypal could just swoop in at some point one year if they can advertise it somehow.

Theres a problem with that though, You have to go through yet another third party (Paypal) There are a lot of people (Myself included) Who dislike paypal for various reasons. And I'm sorry, Enter a ten digit number + a 4 digit pin, Instead of just tapping your phone (Which, lets face it, would take less time) to the reader and being done with it, Which seems like the more logical option?

Bobby Corwen · Aug 29, 2014

Neokiller309 said:
Theres a problem with that though, You have to go through yet another third party (Paypal) There are a lot of people (Myself included) Who dislike paypal for various reasons. And I'm sorry, Enter a ten digit number + a 4 digit pin, Instead of just tapping your phone (Which, lets face it, would take less time) to the reader and being done with it, Which seems like the more logical option?

You can't just tap it.

You open up your phone, open passbook, prep the thing.

The busy work you do on there is longer than it does to fire off a quick 10 digit number you have memorized in your core for years. The average person can enter their phone number on a numeric key pad in about 2 seconds without even needing to think about what they are doing because we intuitively have the key pad pattern internalized.

It would take you that long to just pull the phone out and find the app.

And Im confused, do you think there won't be systems with confirmation prompts if you use NFC? Like is this amount correct? etc.

Its not gonna be a simple scan and the person says thanks have a nice day once we leave the land of gift cards.

Just cuz a pre-loaded Starbucks thing is low on security (its just gift cards and coffee) doesn't mean there won't be a certain level of safety if it becomes a mainstream thing with your bank account on it and the security risks increase exponentially.

I highly highly doubt it will ever be at a point where you can walk into a gas station and just scan a sleeping phone and walk out with no pin and no confirmation buttons like how you're imagining. And anything short of that is not as convenient as entering in a phone number you have memorized and can enter quickly from memory without even thinking or needing to have anything with you except car keys.

And yes Paypal is a terrible organization lol. Thats why I wish Apple would see far enough ahead into the future and create their own simple Apple Checkout that give options for checkout with or without devices

cambookpro · Aug 29, 2014

An 11-digit phone number (what it is in the UK) and a 4 digit pin? How is that any easier? On squishy number pads you find in shops, that's about 20 seconds. It's much easier just to take out your phone and tap it.

I'm not sure if you have it in the USA (I don't think chip and PIN has made it across the pond yet!), but the future is basically here in the UK: if an amount is under £20 and you have a credit or debit card with a wireless chip, you just tap it on the reader. No PINs. No pressing buttons. And it's done.

Now just imagine that but with your NFC phone: take it out, tap it on the reader, payment processes. Now that's the future.

KeepCalmPeople · Aug 29, 2014

Yes I think the phone number plus PIN, while relatively quick, is also quite insecure. Somebody could easily watch you type in those numbers and then use them themselves.
Waving a phone over a reader seems easier, and I would suggest perhaps one additional step for security: you authenticate via Touch ID while or just before waving your phone.

Mindbender14 · Aug 29, 2014

For what it's worth I think you're right. I have NEVER seen a paypal checkout anywhere. Just punching in those numbers would be easier and faster than using a phone.

cynics · Aug 29, 2014

Why can't PayPal information be stolen? It can and has, often at that. Plus it's generally a direct link to physical cash (bank/checking account) unlike the highly protective buffer a credit card company offers. Your actual bank should be the last line of defense, fixing that stuff is a real pita.

PayPal offers little to no useful rewards which is a very big deal to a lot of people (I fly free for my vacations) plus 1-5% off grocery, gas, cash back, etc.

You could link PayPal to a credit card I guess but why add another middle man?

I only use paypal when I absolutely have too.

Plus why would Apple not set up a system of there own like they always do? They are in business to make money remember.

Bobby Corwen · Aug 29, 2014

cynics said:
Why can't PayPal information be stolen? It can and has, often at that. Plus it's generally a direct link to physical cash (bank/checking account) unlike the highly protective buffer a credit card company offers. Your actual bank should be the last line of defense, fixing that stuff is a real pita.

PayPal offers little to no useful rewards which is a very big deal to a lot of people (I fly free for my vacations) plus 1-5% off grocery, gas, cash back, etc.

You could link PayPal to a credit card I guess but why add another middle man?

I only use paypal when I absolutely have too.

Plus why would Apple not set up a system of there own like they always do? They are in business to make money remember.

Well I mean all of this is extreme but yes technically if someone stalks you and knows your private info somehow and sees you have an account, it could be found out sure.

My point is that a robbery usually doesn't involve a guy yelling "you got any mobile accounts I should know about???!!!"

It involves looking through personal items so by that merit alone its a bit more "ghostly".

In your first paragraph you kinda missed the point that Paypal payment options are your choice and are the same as the original payment options: you can have a credit card, double double buffered, and no bank account on there even. So Paypal + credit card is a step safer even than just a card. You can have a Paypal debit card or prepaid debit for taking out cash if you don't use a bank account.

And yes, I wish Apple would set up a system to crush Paypal, thats my hope lol.

kilcher · Aug 29, 2014

Without digging too much into the details (security) it doesn't seem like a bad idea. I highly doubt Apple is working with PayPal though.

Newtons Apple · Aug 29, 2014

Having NFC on the iPhone 6 is only half of the equation! Few Retailers are doing NFC yet and many never will. The banks are resisting even using "chipped" credit cards much less trusting NFC.

No saying it will not happen one day but I do not see NFC being the major player in banking and retail.

If Apple did get into NFC security, it would not be with PayPal. Apple would use iTunes somehow. PayPal is in competition with Apple as they are wanting to come up with their own retail terminal purchase system.

Bobby Corwen · Aug 29, 2014

Newtons Apple said:
Having NFC on the iPhone 6 is only half of the equation! Few Retailers are doing NFC yet and many never will. The banks are resisting even using "chipped" credit cards much less trusting NFC.

No saying it will not happen one day but I do not see NFC being the major player in banking and retail.

Well it felt really amazing going through the experience. Amazing enough that I almost wish I had a project to work on to have a reason to buy something else from Home Depot again just in some shorts and flip flops and not need anything else.

I honestly felt like a retail ninja. Both me and the cashier had a "wow thats neat" moment. I can't emphasize the swag of it enough. Its very subtle but significant.

And that seems childish, but if I felt that simple "urge" to want to shop there just because of that convenience, then it may reflect the same feeling of others en masse and if that becomes a noticeable trend, retailers will want to benefit from it. (Most of these guys are getting profits destroyed by the internet/eBay/Amazon passively over the years anyway.)

Retailers will respond if the consumers demonstrate demand for such a thing. Apple is influential enough to encourage such interest.

Banks have nothing to do with it, they are just payment methods in the system, not the system itself.

itjw · Aug 29, 2014

Every time I see someone doing it the "easy way" and paying with their phone at Starbucks or whatnot, it's almost ALWAYS a clusterflunk.

They fumble around, can't get it to work, try to scan the barcode (or tap the phone if it's NFC) etc... Then minutes later (assuming the clerk doesn't drop the phone, seen that happen too lol) they scurry along.

Sometimes it goes smoothly, but I would bet that 9 times out of 10 it would be just as fast (if I were to race someone) by swiping my AMEX (especially on purchases that don't require a signature).

The OP is right. PayPal could be a major improvement on the NFC/barcode on a screen "digital" methods. The trouble is:

PayPal is THE DEVIL

cynics · Aug 29, 2014

Newtons Apple said:
Having NFC on the iPhone 6 is only half of the equation! Few Retailers are doing NFC yet and many never will. The banks are resisting even using "chipped" credit cards much less trusting NFC.

No saying it will not happen one day but I do not see NFC being the major player in banking and retail.

If Apple did get into NFC security, it would not be with PayPal. Apple would use iTunes somehow. PayPal is in competition with Apple as they are wanting to come up with their own retail terminal purchase system.

Quite a few retailers do NFC payments you just aren't aware of them. Home Depot, lowes, mcdonalds, walgreens, foot locker, gap, 7-11 etc etc. Most credit card scanners that you swipe your own card are equipped with the tech. Generally the retailer themselves don't need to do anything at all it's the credit machines that make this possible.

----------

Bobby Corwen said:
Well it felt really amazing going through the experience. Amazing enough that I almost wish I had a project to work on to have a reason to buy something else from Home Depot again just in some shorts and flip flops and not need anything else.

I honestly felt like a retail ninja. Both me and the cashier had a "wow thats neat" moment. I can't emphasize the swag of it enough. Its very subtle but significant.

And that seems childish, but if I felt that "urge" to want to shop there just because of that convenience, then it may reflect the same feeling of others en masse and if that becomes a noticeable trend, retailers will want to benefit from it. (Most of these guys are getting profits destroyed by the internet/eBay/Amazon passively over the years anyway.)

Like most credit card identity theft it starts with obtaining the information. That's how people in other states/countries use the information. Not because they asked you for it.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you.

Newtons Apple · Aug 29, 2014

itjw said:
Every time I see someone doing it the "easy way" and paying with their phone at Starbucks or whatnot, it's almost ALWAYS a clusterflunk.

They fumble around, can't get it to work, try to scan the barcode (or tap the phone if it's NFC) etc... Then minutes later (assuming the clerk doesn't drop the phone, seen that happen too lol) they scurry along.

Sometimes it goes smoothly, but I would bet that 9 times out of 10 it would be just as fast (if I were to race someone) by swiping my AMEX (especially on purchases that don't require a signature).

The OP is right. PayPal could be a major improvement on the NFC/barcode on a screen "digital" methods. The trouble is:

PayPal is THE DEVIL

AMEN!

Two people in front of me could not get their phone to work at Starbucks. She was pi$$ed and so were we because we were behind her. Had to dig the change out of the bottom of her purse to pay and finally the guy in front of me gave her a dollar to complet the sale!

In the end I hope the bugs will be worked out.

Still would just like a finger print at the register, just a finger print.

Donfor39 · Aug 29, 2014

I resisted a very good 5s offer from existing iphone5 contract

I declined as a 'wait and see' iphone6

as much as I want nfc not so sure it will be used in the u.k. anytime soon

(chip and pin is very secure and popular) and quick

CEmajr · Aug 29, 2014

cynics said:
Why can't PayPal information be stolen? It can and has, often at that. Plus it's generally a direct link to physical cash (bank/checking account) unlike the highly protective buffer a credit card company offers. Your actual bank should be the last line of defense, fixing that stuff is a real pita.

PayPal offers little to no useful rewards which is a very big deal to a lot of people (I fly free for my vacations) plus 1-5% off grocery, gas, cash back, etc.

You could link PayPal to a credit card I guess but why add another middle man?

I only use paypal when I absolutely have too.

Plus why would Apple not set up a system of there own like they always do? They are in business to make money remember.

I agree. No way in hell I'm keeping money in a Paypal account to pay for items. I like using my Amex and other credit cards to pay for things for the rewards as well. Paypal gives you nothing. I already hate having to link bank accounts and credit cards to them as it is. If it wasn't for eBay forcing them onto me I probably would never use them.

Bobby Corwen · Aug 29, 2014

itjw said:
Every time I see someone doing it the "easy way" and paying with their phone at Starbucks or whatnot, it's almost ALWAYS a clusterflunk.

They fumble around, can't get it to work, try to scan the barcode (or tap the phone if it's NFC) etc... Then minutes later (assuming the clerk doesn't drop the phone, seen that happen too lol) they scurry along.

Sometimes it goes smoothly, but I would bet that 9 times out of 10 it would be just as fast (if I were to race someone) by swiping my AMEX (especially on purchases that don't require a signature).

The OP is right. PayPal could be a major improvement on the NFC/barcode on a screen "digital" methods. The trouble is:

PayPal is THE DEVIL

Yes they are.

Newtons Apple said:
AMEN!

Two people in front of me could not get their phone to work at Starbucks. She was pi$$ed and so were we because we were behind her. Had to dig the change out of the bottom of her purse to pay and finally the guy in front of me gave her a dollar to complet the sale!

In the end I hope the bugs will be worked out.

Still would just like a finger print at the register, just a finger print.

Starts about half way through.

This is about what its like. Nothing super fast when it works. Just seems pointless overall and mostly awkward. No way I like the idea of handing strangers my phone to touch. Thats why a credit card is a card because thats all you use it for. Now it becomes an awkward thing for both people (cashiers touching nasty phones/nasty cashiers touching my personal phone) etc.

Donfor39 said:
I resisted a very good 5s offer from existing iphone5 contract

I declined as a 'wait and see' iphone6

as much as I want nfc not so sure it will be used in the u.k. anytime soon

(chip and pin is very secure and popular) and quick

So that is no different than a swipe and pin on debit card, or swipe and sign on credit. You don't reduce what you need, and you don't save time.

CEmajr said:
I agree. No way in hell I'm keeping money in a Paypal account to pay for items. I like using my Amex and other credit cards to pay for things for the rewards as well. Paypal gives you nothing. I already hate having to link bank accounts and credit cards to them as it is. If it wasn't for eBay forcing them onto me I probably would never use them.

To clarify again like I said earlier, Paypal Checkout is like your virtual wallet and literally IS that credit card with rewards. (Paypal even has their own rewards MC with points). If you pay with your mobile number and pin, your credit card will be charged and you will still get your rewards like as if you swiped the card itself.

There are even cards out there that act like a 1-card and you can have different accounts tied to it and you can micromanage which account you pay with. Paypal is the same thing.

The whole point is they skipped that step of needing anything (card/phone/chip) which is pointless!!

Yvan256 · Aug 29, 2014

That's not the future

The future is where everybody is nice with each other and everything is free because it's all done by machines.

iBanker · Aug 29, 2014

Bobby Corwen said:
This is about what its like. Nothing super fast when it works. Just seems pointless overall and mostly awkward. No way I like the idea of handing strangers my phone to touch. Thats why a credit card is a card because thats all you use it for. Now it becomes an awkward thing for both people (cashiers touching nasty phones/nasty cashiers touching my personal phone) etc.

I've never had to give my phone to the cashier at Starbucks and it's rare that it doesn't work instantly for me.

CelestialToys · Aug 29, 2014

Just knowing a number that you've memorised isn't the future, it's the past.
Before we had plastic cards you used to have to go into the bank and you told them your account number and passcode in order to be able to withdraw cash.

People won't go to that kind of system anytime soon, it is has been a struggle to get people to stop using cash and start using far more secure debit cards.

Also if Apple succeed in making NFC with mobile devices popular, it's already popular in many places around the world in various other forms such as contactless cards, they will have locked a lot of people into their system along the way. If anything with Apple getting in on the payments market this could spell the end for paypal.

Infinitewisdom · Aug 29, 2014

Anyone who thinks this will help Paypal is deluding themselves. Apple is about to get into payments in a big, big way. And why wouldn't they? So many credit cards on file, it's a natural progression for them.

I think frankly we'll see something like the Starbcuks way of scanning phones. The tricky part for Apple is to get merchants to accept yet another terminal. It'll be interesting to see how they address that issue.

If iPhone 6 gets NFC now, it will make Paypal more powerful than ever!

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