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Walmart and Best Buy Opt Out of 'Apple Pay' as Apple Leverages Required Point-of-Sale Upgrades

dontwalkhand

dontwalkhand

macrumors 603
Jul 5, 2007
6,378
2,867
Phoenix, AZ
Just saw this while getting my car serviced
IMG_0787.jpg
Even the local Big 'O Tires is ready to take Apple Pay. I think that we are going to be well covered when Apple Pay rolls out. We don't need Best Buy or Walmart.

So far stores I frequent that has NFC (PayPass, Apple Pay etc.)

*CVS
*Walgreens
*Chevron
*Basha's (Grocery chain in Arizona)

and now I can even add my car guy! Now I know he didn't have this before, but he didn't just get this for Apple Pay either, so this is something you're going to see more and more of as merchant service providers give retailers new machines.
 
dontwalkhand

dontwalkhand

macrumors 603
Jul 5, 2007
6,378
2,867
Phoenix, AZ
markie said:
Or, Apple Pay is a desperate attempt by some big banks to maintain control and make sure CurrentC fails (not that it won't anyway)... I LOVE it but customers have spoken they don't want this. Many millions have phones that support Google Wallet and/or SoftCard. Almost no one uses it (I do!)
Click to expand...

They don't use it because most people don't even know what it is! Apple is a mastermind at marketing. I told people about SoftCard (Isis), and Google Wallet on their phones, and they didn't even know it was there.
 
F

fortysomegeek

macrumors regular
Oct 9, 2012
248
1
SirLance99 said:
False. It is not more complicated or less secure.

There's a lot of confusion in general regarding how NFC and NFC payments work and how Apple Pay compares to Google Wallet. Well, there's virtually no difference. Here's a summary of what they both do.

  • The both use NFC for mobile transaction.
  • They both use a secure element.
  • Google Wallet can work without a secure element, using Host Card Emulation.
  • They both have an authentication interface (PIN, or fingerprint, or voice, or other biometric sensory input in the future).
  • They both accept all the major banking, financial and credit card institutions in the USA.
  • They both follow established mobile payment standards.
  • Google Wallet will work where Apple Pay is accepted.
  • Apple Pay will work where Google Wallet is accepted.
  • You can use either at any PayPass terminal. Looks for the PayPass NFC logo to use mobile payments.
  • They're both VERY SECURE.
Hopefully, this helps with some of the confusion.
Click to expand...


The Secured element in Google Wallet has been removed since April. Going forward, everything will be HCE.
Source:
http://www.nfcworld.com/2014/03/17/328326/google-wallet-ends-support-physical-secure-elements/

Devices with Android versions older than Android 4.4 (Kitkat) will no longer be supported for tap and pay,” Google says.

Tap and pay “is available in the US, and requires an NFC-enabled Android device running 4.4 (Kitkat) or higher on any carrier network
Click to expand...

What does this mean?

What this means is that some of the functions that the physical secure element provided will be performed on Visa’s or MasterCard’s servers, over the Internet.

The problem with this approach is that it means that the smartphone would need to be connected to the Internet at the moment a transaction is authorized. It would also mean that the cloud service would need to reply to the NFC card reader in the sales terminal in less than half a second. These two constraints aren’t practical.
Click to expand...

src:
http://www.androidauthority.com/everything-need-know-host-card-emulation-347626/

In real world, the Apple Pay system will be faster and work more reliably in places with bad receptions.

Other difference is Google stores your CC, purchase and transaction history online.
https://support.google.com/wallet/answer/1349469?hl=en
 
Southern Dad

Southern Dad

macrumors 68000
May 23, 2010
1,545
625
Shady Dale, Georgia
ellsworth said:
I give it the end of this holiday season or even mid-way through to hear both companies run to get their registers upgraded for Apple Pay.

This is one of those features that people will want to use JUST to use it.
Retail numbers will show it.
Click to expand...

I think you are right. There is no way that they will continue to refuse to take it if it costs them shoppers. You know Walmart takes PayPal on their terminals, why would they not take Apple Pay? I think this has to do with money. I'm willing to bet Walmart wants a better deal than everyone else and Apple wants to charge everyone the same amount.
 
G

geeksweep

macrumors newbie
Sep 19, 2012
15
4
jehrler said:
Three things. First, the MCX is clearly driven by the desire of the retailers to avoid the processing fees from credit cards. It only works with store cards or your checking/savings account.

Second, what are the loss protections with this? With credit cards it is $0 and you are not out the money during the time the dispute is in process. With debit cards it is a bit more iffy. With MCX??

Third, how secure with this platform be. Certainly not a great time for retailers (cough Home Depot, Target, Neiman cough) to be trying to roll out a new payment system with unclear consumer liability standards.
Click to expand...

Also many people want to use their credit cards to get cash back/points so using just a walmart card or paying through a checking account is not in the best interest for most consumers in that scenario.
 
U

utl768

macrumors 6502
Sep 8, 2009
387
0
apple pay is more of a novelty then real world for me at this point until its widely adopted

i really do hope publix takes it because that would make my life 100x easier
 
A

AllieNeko

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,004
57
Southern Dad said:
I think you are right. There is no way that they will continue to refuse to take it if it costs them shoppers. You know Walmart takes PayPal on their terminals, why would they not take Apple Pay? I think this has to do with money. I'm willing to bet Walmart wants a better deal than everyone else and Apple wants to charge everyone the same amount.
Click to expand...

1. Walmart doesn't take PayPal

2. Walmart refused NFC long before Apple Pay, and as far as I can tell Apple charges banks, not stores in any way - you pay normal card processing rates. I think it's more reasonable to say that Walmart refuses NFC over debit routing choices.
 
Southern Dad

Southern Dad

macrumors 68000
May 23, 2010
1,545
625
Shady Dale, Georgia
markie said:
1. Walmart doesn't take PayPal

2. Walmart refused NFC long before Apple Pay, and as far as I can tell Apple charges banks, not stores in any way - you pay normal card processing rates. I think it's more reasonable to say that Walmart refuses NFC over debit routing choices.
Click to expand...

If not having Apple Pay causes them to lose sales, the will change their mind.
 
kdarling

kdarling

macrumors P6
Jun 9, 2007
17,373
5,924
First university coding class = 47 years ago
fortysomegeek said:
(regarding Android Host Card Emulation and SE in the cloud)

The problem with this approach is that it means that the smartphone would need to be connected to the Internet at the moment a transaction is authorized. It would also mean that the cloud service would need to reply to the NFC card reader in the sales terminal in less than half a second. These two constraints aren’t practical.
src:
http://www.androidauthority.com/everything-need-know-host-card-emulation-347626/
Click to expand...

In real world, the Apple Pay system will be faster and work more reliably in places with bad receptions.
Click to expand...
You left out the final and most important sentence. The article paragraph ended thusly:

Therefore the companies will use payment tokens.

These tokens are stored locally on the smartphone but they only authorize the payment app to make a limited number of payments for a limited amount of time , say one day. Once the token expires or reaches its authorized limits then new tokens need to be fetched. The management of these tokens will happen in the background and can happen whenever the user is online, as part of the normal sync process.
Click to expand...

In other words, Android HCE payments do NOT depend on being online at the time of purchase.
 
C

cjmillsnun

macrumors 68020
Aug 28, 2009
2,399
48
QuarterSwede said:
The quickest I ever have transactions complete is when using an AMEX card with a mag stripe, it's almost immediate. Visa is just slow to authenticate and NFC take 5 seconds to just read. Swiping is always faster in my experience.
Click to expand...

Swiping is also far more insecure. EMV, although slower is far more difficult to clone.
 
C

cjmillsnun

macrumors 68020
Aug 28, 2009
2,399
48
caesarp said:
But the us will be mostly chip and signature. Not pin. And I don't want some cashier seeing my card number and name. Chip or not. Physical cards are so 1990s. Stupid credit card companies took too long with EMV in the us. Should have been in place everywhere by 2010. But they were too greedy. Didn't want to spend the $$ to issue new cards. They paid out less in dealing with fraud. But the consumer got shafted.
Click to expand...

Considering the UK had full implementation of EMV in 2006, and the technology had been in use in most of the EU for many years prior to that, the US has been extremely slow to adopt the technology. It is well proven.
 
F

fredfnord

macrumors regular
Sep 9, 2007
127
19
Nunyabinez said:
I can't believe the ludicrous comments about "who shops at Walmart?" and "Walmart shoppers have smart phones?" You do realize that you don't become the largest retailer in the world without having the vast majority of people on the planet shopping there...
Click to expand...

Oh, look, another person who has never left the US lecturing us on what the vast majority of the people in the world do.
 
Gasu E.

Gasu E.

macrumors 603
Mar 20, 2004
5,033
3,150
Not far from Boston, MA.
isepic said:
Walmart and Sam's Club started their new "chip and pin" system just recently --- every-single-time it is used, takes FOREVER, plus, they don't even enter in a pin, just push the card in, 3-4 times later it finally reads it, goes though the slow process of authentication, then asks if you want cash back, then another slow process to finish. Mean while if you had stripe, you'd be done in 30 seconds, Apple Pay, 5 seconds if you have a clean finger :)
Click to expand...

That's the problem right there. A full 45% of Walmart's customers don't possess a clean finger.
 
Nunyabinez

Nunyabinez

macrumors 68000
Apr 27, 2010
1,758
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Provo, UT
fredfnord said:
Oh, look, another person who has never left the US lecturing us on what the vast majority of the people in the world do.
Click to expand...

Are you for real?

First, nice job digging up an old dead thread just to attack someone.

Second, if anyone here is being a snob, it's you mister "Oh, the people in US think they're better than us, but we're more enlightened than them."

And third, what the hell are you talking about? Is Walmart not the largest retailer in the world? Please provide me some detail about how I don't know what people in the rest of the world do.

Maybe you come from some piss hole country that doesn't have a Walmart, but don't go acting all high and mighty because the rest of the world certainly shops at Walmart. It is in no way a US phenomenon.

Now if you want to engage in a meaningful discussion, refute my points with some data instead of showing your obvious penis envy.
 
Last edited:
dontwalkhand

dontwalkhand

macrumors 603
Jul 5, 2007
6,378
2,867
Phoenix, AZ
Nunyabinez said:
Are you for real?

First, nice job digging up an old dead thread just to attack someone.

Second, if anyone here is being a snob, it's you mister "Oh, the people in US think they're better than us, but we're more enlightened than them."

And third, what the hell are you talking about? Is Walmart not the largest retailer in the world? Please provide me some detail about how I don't know what people in the rest of the world do.

Maybe you come from some piss hole country that doesn't have a Walmart, but don't go acting all high and mighty because the rest of the world certainly shops at Walmart. It is in no way a US phenomenon.

Now if you want to engage in a meaningful discussion, refute my points with some data instead of showing your obvious penis envy.
Click to expand...

Of course Walmarts in other countries are just as bad as they are here. Just look at Glassdoor reviews for Walmarts in other countries. No matter what country you're in, Walmart is still Walmart, and people do still avoid them like the plague.

Walmart owns Asda and Asda-Walmart in the UK, and when I was there, it still attracts 'weird' people there.

Also no contact less in Walmarts (ASDA) there either. It must be a home office policy. They do have Chip and PIN though but so does the US ones. I don't think the UK is getting MCX though so I'm not sure why Walmarts there don't have contactless paynents.

But hey the UK has Whole Foods too (Whole Snobs?) and both US and UK has NFC AT whole foods!
 
Y

Yinmay

macrumors regular
Apr 19, 2010
159
8
The real issue for retailers is not Apple Pay, it's credit card companies.

Apple Pay got all major banks on board because it uses the existing credit card system, thereby making it even more indispensable than it already is.

MCX CurrentC is an attempt to bypass the up to 10% cut (or fixed amount + %) that banks together with credit card companies charge merchants on every transaction.

So while I am thrilled about Apple Pay and have been avidly using it since day 1, I am not a fan of credit card companies. They have too little competition and merchants are too much in a position of weakness to negotiate anything better.

It might not be a problem for Walmart, but I was talking to my watch repairer the other day, a 50-year old 1 man business, the guy is genius with watches, but he's no lawyer or accountant. And I felt bad for him as he was reading through Visa's contract and had no choice but to sign it no matter how outrageous its terms were.

I'm not saying MCX would help him directly, but if there's any chance it creates competition against credit card companies which indirectly forces Visa/MC/Amex to lower their rates, the real economy, small entrepreneurs, will win.

And in parallel to that, we the customers are constantly on the hunt for credit cards with even higher benefits, like 5% cash back, and who ultimately bears the cost of that? Retailers, because credit cards are still getting their usual cut no matter, on top of whatever cash back they give us.
 
A

AllieNeko

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,004
57
Yinmay said:
MCX CurrentC is an attempt to bypass the up to 10% cut (or fixed amount + %) that banks together with credit card companies charge merchants on every transaction.
Click to expand...

10%? LOL, maybe on the worst acquirers for small, high-risk businesses. But most of those are eligible for Square at 2.75%. Large businesses, it's under 2%
 
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