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CyBeRino

macrumors 6502a
Jun 18, 2011
744
46
3. International travel often amazes me - i've had 3 foreign guests in the last month NOT tell their bank they were leaving the country. THEN wonder why their transactions are declined. Sometimes credit works if debit failed, and then the flip side.

I've *never* had to tell my bank I was going anywhere and they have only ever declined transactions that were actually objectively weird. Like both of the times I tried to buy iPhones in other countries -- once it went over the limit of my card and the next it worked but they disabled it after that until they contacted me. In no case was the location relevant -- it was about the amount charged.

Secondly, there is a thing right now where I would not be able to use my (Maestro) debit card outside of the EU unless I enabled it. This is an anti-fraud measure; most EU stay within the EU most of the time so there's no need to allow transactions from non-EU countries. If you're going to some place outside the EU, you log in to your bank's website and check the box that says 'work everywhere' and you're done.
 

MisakixMikasa

macrumors 6502a
Aug 21, 2013
776
2
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
As far as I understand it, Apple Pay does not need an internet connection.

Registering a card with Apple Pay (again, as I understand it) does the following:

  • Creates a 'token' on the device, stored in the Secure Enclave
  • The token is agreed between your phone and the bank. Effectively, this turns your phone into a credit/debit card 'proxy'
  • The phone can use this token to generate 'one-time only' codes to be sent to NFC readers.
  • The NFC reader sends this code (which looks like a set of normal card identifiers) to your bank during a purchase
  • The bank then verifies this code against its copy or version of the original token to verify that the purchase came from you.
  • This code cannot be converted back into the 'token' which signed it.
  • The token cannot be converted back into anything personally identifiable or usable for purchases by any party other than your bank.
  • The code that's sent to the NFC reader is secure. Even if the NFC reader were compromised and the code was recorded, it's a one-time code that cannot be reused for further purchases.

So, your phone does not store your bank details. Apple do not store the details. Your phone doesn't need to contact anything over the internet to make a purchase. It just uses its token to generate one-time-only cryptographically-secure codes to send to the NFC reader.

So, how's this better than the NFC-enabled debit cards that I used daily here in the UK? Well:

  • My debit card isn't protected with my fingerprint
  • My debit card is at the mercy of the NFC terminal as to what happens once the card's details are transmitted to the reader.
  • My debit card won't keep a reviewable history of my purchases (mainly due to its lack of touchscreen ;)
  • I've had three broken debit cards in the past 2 years. I've never broken an iPhone
  • I have three debit cards. I only need one phone.

As for how it's better than Google Wallet -- I have no idea. Never used Google Wallet. Do Google know what's been purchased in a personally-identifiable way? Would they know that foo@gmail.com just bought a box of doughnuts, and start inserting adverts for sugary treats into foo@gmail's search results or GMail ads? I don't know.

On the other hand, would Apple know that foo@icloud.com just bought doughnuts? I don't know. But the architecture of Apple Pay suggests that it's not required for the system to work.

So, assuming Apple do not keep purchase records, then Apple Pay maintains the status quo of only my bank (and possibly the card network -- Visa/MasterCard, Amex, etc) knowing what I'm buying. Same as it ever was.


Thanks for the detailed explain. Very informative...
 

Col4bin

macrumors 68000
Oct 2, 2011
1,887
1,573
El Segundo
iCloud was NOT hacked. This has been stressed so many damn times. It was social engineering used to 'guess' the celebrities' passwords. As a result, Apple now insist on iCloud users having two-step login enabled. iCloud was not hacked and Apple's systems were not compromised. It was down to the celebrities not making use of secure passwords.

Apple Pay is secure because if somebody wanted to buy stuff with your cards, they'd need your phone...and your finger print. It's way more secure than the swipe nonsense the US has, whereas we've had chip and PIN in the UK for years and years now.

Try to research more into the "iCloud hacking" before making sweeping statements which aren't true. Apple Pay is secure, iCloud is secure.

Furthermore, your card information isn't actually stored on any of your devices. The iPhone creates a card-specific code which just references the information which identifies your card, it scraps all the actual details. So nobody can 'hack' (there's that word again) into your iPhone and steal your card details.

Bet that Kool Aid tastes good, huh? I'm not making any "sweeping statements" but more expressing my concern. Time will tell.
 

TraceyS/FL

macrumors 601
Jan 11, 2007
4,173
313
North Central Florida
Debit is supposed to only work on US debit cards as non US debit cards (with the exception of some Canadian banks) only run on the Visa/MC/Amex network (whatever logo is on the front). So that would be a good reason it would decline.

Also a lot of European banks block transactions even if you tell them your going to the US as they find magnetic stripe transactions suspicious.

Thanks - I will remember that!

I make sure we try it all ways before they give up, They have all had at least one card that will work thankfully. It is always an adventure - and I do try to make it less stressful for them.
 

TraceyS/FL

macrumors 601
Jan 11, 2007
4,173
313
North Central Florida
I've *never* had to tell my bank I was going anywhere and they have only ever declined transactions that were actually objectively weird. Like both of the times I tried to buy iPhones in other countries -- once it went over the limit of my card and the next it worked but they disabled it after that until they contacted me. In no case was the location relevant -- it was about the amount charged.

Secondly, there is a thing right now where I would not be able to use my (Maestro) debit card outside of the EU unless I enabled it. This is an anti-fraud measure; most EU stay within the EU most of the time so there's no need to allow transactions from non-EU countries. If you're going to some place outside the EU, you log in to your bank's website and check the box that says 'work everywhere' and you're done.

Interesting.

See here in the states we technically have to let them know. Heck, when I was talking to the bank about something else with my credit card, she mentioned I didn't have a travel alert on it. They even noted my layover cities!

I've had a HUGE amount of people having stuff declined out of state.

But living in Central FL, even up here in retirement-ville, we have a lot of overseas travelers. You just go with the flow and try to make sure they leave the store on a good note. Thank them lots of coming and spending money to keep my taxes low :D

I think the debit thing is another strange part - our debit cards here are almost all debit, AND mastercard/visa cards. It has been a long time since I've had a card that was JUST a debit card (although I think I have one somewhere for my savings account). So we can use that debit card as credit. I had a guy that got totally confused by that when I was talking about trying it as credit. He was like, it is my debit card. But hey, we got it to work and he got his stuff.

The banking differences in countries is interesting to me - it is a whole other nuance of different ways to do the same thing. Which adds to the "something" in taking a product like Apple Pay international.
 

Redenkeew

macrumors member
Aug 2, 2010
50
0
NYC
Yeah, but VISA & Mastercard don't issue their own cards, financial institutions actually issue the cards. This is unlike American Express and Discovery, who both typically issue their own cards in addition to being the payment network, although Amex also does also issue cards via banks.

Actually Amex do issue cards via banks, outside of the US though.
 

kdarling

macrumors P6
I respectfully disagree.

Fair enough.

Apple had invented something by tying this to TouchID. And I believe they have patented their implementation. I'm sure there are similar processes that could be invented to be similarly secure and maybe there will be equally secure processes used by competitors soon.

Samsung came out with a fingerprint based PayPal app back in February.

It used the industry standard FIDO authentication protocol, which is important, because it allows any device or app to use biometric sensors, and communicate the authentication with a server.

So I agree. It'd be no surprise if anyone else used a fingerprint sensor with a different wallet.

I do believe biometric measures will always be more secure than PINs.

I think it takes both types to be secure. Something you have, and something you know. Biometrics can be spoofed, and PINs can be stolen.

--

On a different note, I think some people are way too caught up in the security aspect as far not giving out identity. After all, a loyalty program is useless unless our purchases are identified as ours.

Heck, I want most merchants to know my name. I appreciate it when I get personally greeted :)
 

Redenkeew

macrumors member
Aug 2, 2010
50
0
NYC
No, it wasn't hacked, it was built with such mediocrity that it enabled the social engineering (which is also hacking, by the way) that caused the problem. Gives a person great confidence when handing over your financial information.

Or given that Apple has been caught thrice willfully breaking the law, maybe Apple won't let your financial information leak, they'll just do something illegal with it themselves.

You are, seriously, a nut job. Fascinating.

----------

Bias? Hatred? Try to keep up. I was responding to someone who was rushing into the arms of Apple to avoid Google and I pointed out they do the exact same thing. You then replied with something off-topic, but I played along and now you claim I have a bias and hate because I disagree with you? I've bought tens of thousands of dollars worth of Apple products, why would I do that if I felt that way?

I point out the facts, you pull up irrelevant non-facts in reaching to try to defend Apple. That's as plain as the day.

Apple does store credit card numbers. Have a look at your iTunes account, you can't even have one without giving them a credit card number which remains there.

Seriously, you are kind of the Apple apologists.

Actually you can. By opening your iTunes store with a gift card, you can have an iTunes account without a credit card loaded. I bought stuff from iTunes all the time and never had to enter any cc info. So there.

----------

Ugh, not the point. The claim was that Apple doesn't store your CC number, but it does. Gift cards are just another financial instrument and the same difference.

The point is that was pre-Apple Pay. Now that Apple Store uses Apple Pay, these new transactions won't leave cc info on Apple servers anymore. We are going forward to the future, not backward. Next year is 2015, not going back to 2013 sir.
 

CyBeRino

macrumors 6502a
Jun 18, 2011
744
46
Interesting.
I think the debit thing is another strange part - our debit cards here are almost all debit, AND mastercard/visa cards. It has been a long time since I've had a card that was JUST a debit card (although I think I have one somewhere for my savings account). So we can use that debit card as credit. I had a guy that got totally confused by that when I was talking about trying it as credit. He was like, it is my debit card. But hey, we got it to work and he got his stuff.

Yeah our cards lack the infrastructure to do that. No globally unique card number, for instance. We have however been using PINs since always and chips for years now.

The banking differences in countries is interesting to me - it is a whole other nuance of different ways to do the same thing. Which adds to the "something" in taking a product like Apple Pay international.

Yeah. You have no idea. We here, and I'm not trying to bash, are mostly amazed at how far behind the US really is in this field. Magstripes, signatures, checks, getting paid in cash, ATM fees, almost non-functional internet banking, all things that we don't have to deal with (anymore).

(I have a friend who moved to the US from the Netherlands and she complains fairly constantly about the state of banking in the US.)
 

alphaod

macrumors Core
Feb 9, 2008
22,183
1,245
NYC
Still won't let me add my Google Wallet card... :p

Samsung came out with a fingerprint based PayPal app back in February.

The Samsung implementation is pretty horrid. I'm not sure if it's their fault or PayPal's, but for starters you need to disable two-factor authentication in PayPal. Then you need their stupid app which seems also very buggy.
 

MattInOz

macrumors 68030
Jan 19, 2006
2,760
0
Sydney
I was about to say why would Austraians use U.S credit cards if they live there ?

The only reason for U.S from international point of view is when your traveling outside U.S.

But fear not, banks here : Commonwealth, Westpac (my bank) and other will support Apple Pay here soon.

NAB isn't for some reason....

Apple Pay doesn't use the internet, so go and do whatever you want. :) it requires NFC to function. That's it. No more, no less.

apple-pay-set-to-accelerate-secure-mobile-payments-in-australia/

Comments from Visa here suggests Apple Pay could be mostly worldwide by end of 2015, even better they seem to be suggesting Australia is a good test bed for the run in tests early in the year.
 

RMarch

macrumors newbie
May 15, 2011
29
0
Clarification on Apple Pay backend

Lots of inaccurate information on the backend of Apple Pay. Visa \ MC \ Amex \ UPI \ etc. are called schemes. These schemes are actually global. This is exactly why ApplePay actually does work at almost any contactless merchant terminal globally today.

The limitation is not on the merchant side (the store and provider (know as the acquiring institution) that process the transaction), but the issuer (typically banks that "issue" cards to consumers). The total fee to the merchant has NOT gone up at all. What Apple has done is to negotiate taking a small slice (15 basis points), out of the issuer revenue per transaction (Interchange Fees). So effectively the banks that issue the cards agree to give Apple a slice of their profit. The business case is that this will be made back by the banks primarily through lower fraud rates and higher volume. The schemes (Network Fees) and acquiring institutions (Processing Fees) who are the other parties that take a cut of the overall transaction fees are unaffected by Apple Pay. To them it is just another transaction.

So if you onboard an issuer to ApplePay, Apple then enables the card to be added to Apple Pay (via Passbook) and also enables on the backend a interface with the bank to collect their ~15 basis points per transaction. Once a card is onboard, the schemes (again Visa, MC, etc.) see it as just another transaction (although one that uses tokenization which the schemes have supported for years now).

See this breakdown of the transaction fees...

https://bluenotes.anz.com/media/145510/Sample_apple_pay_trans.png

So in the UK example, if I have Apple Pay enabled and loaded with a supported card from one of the partner US issuers, it will work fine at any merchant terminal that supports the standard scheme contactless tokenization (almost all contactless stations globally). If however I want to use a card issued by a UK issuer (i.e. RBS, etc.) Apple will not allow it to be added because the terms and interface to the UK issuers have not been established yet (i.e. no way for Apple to take their small transaction fee). This is actually no different that let's say a small saving and loan issuer in the US that is not signed up yet. You can't use that card until the bank enters an agreement to enable taking the cut.

The acquirers (i.e merchants) nor the schemes (i.e. Visa, MC) actually have anything to do with the rollout. Apple just needed to work with them initially to ensure ApplePay complied with the global schemes contactless tokenization standards.

This tie up with the issuing banks is what sets Apple Pay completely apart from what Google and others are trying to do. It is fundamentally a different business model, and this is actually why Apple Pay is set to have a big impact. It has not nearly as much to do with the front end technology where Apple Pay and Goole wallet may appear to be very similar.

Hope this helps clear all this up. Much misinformation out there on how all this works. Too many posts in this thread for me to go back and correct all the incorrect statements which people have represented as fact. Lets just say I work in the industry so I could provide some clarity.
 
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Johnba

macrumors newbie
Dec 12, 2008
15
1
Salo
I'm an American living in Finland. I set up Apple Pay yesterday. The only "trick" was to power cycle ( CTRL+ALT+DEL) your phone after changing the region in settings. Before the cycle the Apple Pay option was not visible in the options settings. After that the standard set up instructions worked.

I'm going to try this at Lidl later in the week.

***UPDATE*** Wellsfargo Debit doesn't work in Finnish Lidl. Will try again with Wells Credit card.
 
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RMarch

macrumors newbie
May 15, 2011
29
0
apple-pay-set-to-accelerate-secure-mobile-payments-in-australia/

Comments from Visa here suggests Apple Pay could be mostly worldwide by end of 2015, even better they seem to be suggesting Australia is a good test bed for the run in tests early in the year.

Yep to AU. Australia actually has the highest penetration of contactless (NFC based) merchant terminals in the world. Potentially the best market for Apple Pay adoption (although iPhone penetration is much lower in AU that the US). AU is over 80%, by contrast the US is at about 5%.

----------

Said about a million times...

It has nothing to do with the NFC terminal. The NFC terminal sends information that it receives to a bank, and the bank accepts that information (or it doesn't). Visa in the USA accepts the information from Apple Pay, Visa in the UK doesn't at the moment. Once Visa UK accepts the information, all the UK NFC terminals will automatically accept Apple Pay. They don't even know that Apple Pay is involved in all of this, they just pass information that they receive to the bank, and the bank tells the NFC information if that information is fine or not.

Your credit card doesn't protect you, it's the credit card company refunding you money if fraud happens. Nobody protects the credit card company. Apple Pay makes it harder to defraud the credit card company. Now you might think that you don't care if the credit card company is defrauded, but in the end, you and all other credit card users are paying for it in fees. Even if you don't see it.

This is first part of this post is completely inaccurate. It has nothing to do with "Visa US" vs. "Visa UK". See my post explaining.
 
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RMarch

macrumors newbie
May 15, 2011
29
0
As far as I understand it, Apple Pay does not need an internet connection.

Registering a card with Apple Pay (again, as I understand it) does the following:

  • Creates a 'token' on the device, stored in the Secure Enclave
  • The token is agreed between your phone and the bank. Effectively, this turns your phone into a credit/debit card 'proxy'
  • The phone can use this token to generate 'one-time only' codes to be sent to NFC readers.
  • The NFC reader sends this code (which looks like a set of normal card identifiers) to your bank during a purchase
  • The bank then verifies this code against its copy or version of the original token to verify that the purchase came from you.
  • This code cannot be converted back into the 'token' which signed it.
  • The token cannot be converted back into anything personally identifiable or usable for purchases by any party other than your bank.
  • The code that's sent to the NFC reader is secure. Even if the NFC reader were compromised and the code was recorded, it's a one-time code that cannot be reused for further purchases.

So, your phone does not store your bank details. Apple do not store the details. Your phone doesn't need to contact anything over the internet to make a purchase. It just uses its token to generate one-time-only cryptographically-secure codes to send to the NFC reader.

So, how's this better than the NFC-enabled debit cards that I used daily here in the UK? Well:

  • My debit card isn't protected with my fingerprint
  • My debit card is at the mercy of the NFC terminal as to what happens once the card's details are transmitted to the reader.
  • My debit card won't keep a reviewable history of my purchases (mainly due to its lack of touchscreen ;)
  • I've had three broken debit cards in the past 2 years. I've never broken an iPhone
  • I have three debit cards. I only need one phone.

As for how it's better than Google Wallet -- I have no idea. Never used Google Wallet. Do Google know what's been purchased in a personally-identifiable way? Would they know that foo@gmail.com just bought a box of doughnuts, and start inserting adverts for sugary treats into foo@gmail's search results or GMail ads? I don't know.

On the other hand, would Apple know that foo@icloud.com just bought doughnuts? I don't know. But the architecture of Apple Pay suggests that it's not required for the system to work.

So, assuming Apple do not keep purchase records, then Apple Pay maintains the status quo of only my bank (and possibly the card network -- Visa/MasterCard, Amex, etc) knowing what I'm buying. Same as it ever was.

Good post. Only one small correction. The token is negotiated directly with the schemes (i.e. Visa, MC, etc.) not the bank. I have not tested it, but based on everything I know, this should work without an active internet connection on the phone. Nothing goes over the phones internet connection to enable the transaction.

At a transactional level, Apple has no visibility of what you purchased (similar to how your contactless debit card has no idea either). Apple does effectively know the amount as it will receive a percentage of the issuing banks fees, which is itself a percentage of the total purchase amount. This will be in aggregate though, so no real view on how much you are spending. I am not positive, but I assume this is the same for online Apple Pay as well.
 

haruhiko

macrumors 604
Sep 29, 2009
6,529
5,874
Lots of inaccurate information on the backend of Apple Pay. Visa \ MC \ Amex \ UPI \ etc. are called schemes. These schemes are actually global. This is exactly why ApplePay actually does work at almost any contactless merchant terminal globally today.

The limitation is not on the merchant side (the store and provider (know as the acquiring institution) that process the transaction), but the issuer (typically banks that "issue" cards to consumers). The total fee to the merchant has NOT gone up at all. What Apple has done is to negotiate taking a small slice (15 basis points), out of the issuer revenue per transaction (Interchange Fees). So effectively the banks that issue the cards agree to give Apple a slice of their profit. The business case is that this will be made back by the banks primarily through lower fraud rates and higher volume. The schemes (Network Fees) and acquiring institutions (Processing Fees) who are the other parties that take a cut of the overall transaction fees are unaffected by Apple Pay. To them it is just another transaction.

So if you onboard an issuer to ApplePay, Apple then enables the card to be added to Apple Pay (via Passbook) and also enables on the backend a interface with the bank to collect their ~15 basis points per transaction. Once a card is onboard, the schemes (again Visa, MC, etc.) see it as just another transaction (although one that uses tokenization which the schemes have supported for years now).

See this breakdown of the transaction fees...

https://bluenotes.anz.com/media/145510/Sample_apple_pay_trans.png

So in the UK example, if I have Apple Pay enabled and loaded with a supported card from one of the partner US issuers, it will work fine at any merchant terminal that supports the standard scheme contactless tokenization (almost all contactless stations globally). If however I want to use a card issued by a UK issuer (i.e. RBS, etc.) Apple will not allow it to be added because the terms and interface to the UK issuers have not been established yet (i.e. no way for Apple to take their small transaction fee). This is actually no different that let's say a small saving and loan issuer in the US that is not signed up yet. You can't use that card until the bank enters an agreement to enable taking the cut.

The acquirers (i.e merchants) nor the schemes (i.e. Visa, MC) actually have anything to do with the rollout. Apple just needed to work with them initially to ensure ApplePay complied with the global schemes contactless tokenization standards.

This tie up with the issuing banks is what sets Apple Pay completely apart from what Google and others are trying to do. It is fundamentally a different business model, and this is actually why Apple Pay is set to have a big impact. It has not nearly as much to do with the front end technology where Apple Pay and Goole wallet may appear to be very similar.

Hope this helps clear all this up. Much misinformation out there on how all this works. Lets just say I work in the industry so I could provide some clarity.

Thanks very much for the clarification. I think a lot of people mistook Apple Pay as "iTunes store + fingerprint sensor", which is not the case. And Apple is really brave to break away from their iTunes model and go something much bigger.
 

ksuyen

macrumors 6502a
Jun 26, 2012
772
141
Limiting this to US cards first is a terrible move by Apple.

Yup, in reality this should already work everywhere here (AUS). Visa needs to upgrade their system quickly!

How is this different than existing NFC solutions that have been around for years?

From what I understand, the difference with Apple is the extra security. Your actual card data is never given to the retailer so if they are hacked, they get nothing of use. Whereas I think with other NFC payments, it like swiping your card… so the hackers get it all.

So when people say they "support" Apple Pay, they mean the extra security features? Otherwise, I can already use it anywhere that NFC is accepted?

So every NFC terminal works with Apple Pay already, and all these news articles is just about retailers supporting extra security features? I mean I like extra security as much as the next guy, but my CC already protects me anyway...

Google uses “Host Card Emulation”(HCE) in place of a physical Secure Element. In other words, Google’s servers store your card number and are involved with every transaction you make.
When one makes a payment with Google Wallet, the app interacts with the card reader over NFC and then sends the details of the transaction to Google’s server. In a fraction of a second, a temporary card number is generated for the purchase and sent to the stores payment processor. The actual card number never passes through the merchant’s point-of-sale system.

Apple does not collect data on every purchase you make - Google does.

Thanks for the info. :)
 

BruiserB

macrumors 68000
Aug 9, 2008
1,729
702
Fair enough.



Samsung came out with a fingerprint based PayPal app back in February.

It used the industry standard FIDO authentication protocol, which is important, because it allows any device or app to use biometric sensors, and communicate the authentication with a server.

So I agree. It'd be no surprise if anyone else used a fingerprint sensor with a different wallet.



I think it takes both types to be secure. Something you have, and something you know. Biometrics can be spoofed, and PINs can be stolen.

--

On a different note, I think some people are way too caught up in the security aspect as far not giving out identity. After all, a loyalty program is useless unless our purchases are identified as ours.

Heck, I want most merchants to know my name. I appreciate it when I get personally greeted :)

Agree on loyalty programs....and it sounds like they are coming with ApplePay. At least it seems Apple will err on the side of anonymity and allow us to opt in to being tracked if we desire.

Found this comparison of ApplePay to GoogleWallet this evening:

http://www.fool.com/investing/gener...-vs-google-wallet-why-apple-inc-will-win.aspx
 

H2SO4

macrumors 603
Nov 4, 2008
5,631
6,926
Not at all. Pretty much any company has its own subsidiaries in different countries to deal with specific laws, regulations and tax implications of those countries. Not all work at the same speeds or have the same priorities.

For example, Coca Cola, it has 11 different business units to sell to different countries, and they only make sugared water, which seems a lot less difficult to sell than tech devices.

It’s not.
Anyhow, I can’t seem to get the region change thing to work. Anybody….?
 

Arndroid

macrumors 6502a
Oct 3, 2013
903
461
Limiting this to US cards first is a terrible move by Apple. I understand that perhaps they need to make arrangements with banks for debit card support, but credit cards like VISA, MC, AMEX should be able to be used in any country.

I have a VISA issued in Canada, last time I checked VISA is an American company.

But sadly the reality is that Apple probably wants to profit from each transaction, hence the need for deals in each country.

These are just normal NFC payments and not the more secure apple payment.

People get confused because there is a front end and back end to apple pay.
 

Manderby

macrumors 6502a
Nov 23, 2006
500
92
Ok, I admit, I am mildly overrun (frightened) by the fact that this works.

Not sure if this actually will land a hit in europe. Not so many cards in use, way fewer security concerns here and cash is still faster.

Plus: What I am wondering is how they are gonna pass laws in europe. As far as I know, non-disclosure of (any) transaction fee is forbidden in certain countries. Full transparency. Not sure if the merchants are allowed to show how much will be transferred.

By the way. Isn't a big part of US everyday life based on tipping? How is that going?
 

Robert.Walter

macrumors 68040
Jul 10, 2012
3,072
4,297
Except Switzerland where the banking cartel has made the use of credit cards at merchant locations very rare in comparison to debit cards (and to pay monthly, or regularly occurring, service bills with autopay almost unheard of due to direct bank transfer.)

----------

What I am looking forward to is Apple pay authentication at ATMs. ATM skimming is the fraud of choice that has replaced POS skimming here in Europe.

Sooner I don't have to stick a chip and pin into an ATM, the happier I will be.
 

Tech198

Cancelled
Mar 21, 2011
15,915
2,151
Well.. lets just skip over chip and pin, coz its NOT secure....

Seemed like a good idea at the time to introduce it anyway. Apple Pay comes in and sweeps it up in like 2 seconds..

If users had a choice of either chip & pin, or Apple Pay, i reckon chip & pin may win in the long term.

However, i could be wrong.
 

VulchR

macrumors 68040
Jun 8, 2009
3,358
14,217
Scotland
I guess you don't go to chains very often? Waitrose, Boots, McDonalds, WH SMITH, Marks and Spencers, Thorntons, Weatherspoons, Some Tescos and Asda, Greggs, Starbucks, Costa, London underground/buses/trams all take contactless (Just to name a few). A lot of small businesses take it now as well if they've had their card machine replaced within the last year or two.

Tesco's, Weatherspoon's, Boots etc. do not have contactless payment where I am. Only McDonald's does. Then again, technology takes a while to percolate up to Scotland....

How do you know you've only seen one? They don't look any different to non-NFC chip and pin terminals....

There is a symbol for contactless payments. Trust me, both my bank card and credit card have contactless payments (indeed the credit card for about 2 years), and I have been able to use it once (at McD's). This is a chicken-and-egg thing: NFC will only be popular if it becomes ubiquitous, but it will become ubiquitous only if it is popular. Anyway, I have NFC on both my cards and would really rather not have my phone waste energy on a NFC chip.
 
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