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V.K.

macrumors 6502a
Dec 5, 2007
716
466
Toronto, Canada
Maybe you will have more luck then I did on my 2010 :(. If you want to save time, have them run the VST test on it. It will tell you immediately if you have the graphics problem.

If you are going to get it repaired and they want you to pay for it, ask for a depot repair. It cost around $300 and they will replace everything defective in your MacBook Pro.

Thanks for the suggestions.
I just got back from the genius bar. unfortunately there is no depot repair in Canada - I asked. I forgot to ask about the VST test (I should have looked at your post again). They took my MBP for thorough testing but they did also tell me that even if it's the graphics issue which used to be covered by the 3 year repair program, I will not be covered because too much time has passed. I was told that whatever it is it will most likely require a logic board replacement which will cost me 630$ including taxes. That's way too much - I will probably just buy a new MBP or MBA.
 

Gav Mack

macrumors 68020
Jun 15, 2008
2,193
22
Sagittarius A*
Thanks for the suggestions.
I just got back from the genius bar. unfortunately there is no depot repair in Canada - I asked. I forgot to ask about the VST test (I should have looked at your post again). They took my MBP for thorough testing but they did also tell me that even if it's the graphics issue which used to be covered by the 3 year repair program, I will not be covered because too much time has passed. I was told that whatever it is it will most likely require a logic board replacement which will cost me 630$ including taxes. That's way too much - I will probably just buy a new MBP or MBA.

VST sometimes doesn't pick them up but Furmark the GPU cooker sure does. I've actually had a client ring me from in the store saying a GPU passed the AHT - it didn't after good old Furmark!
 

mkldev

macrumors regular
Apr 1, 2003
203
270
Did you even read my post? I give you the most basic method to prove it's not the lead free solder balls. Heat the chip to 120c for five minutes- this is almost 100c below what you need to melt lead free solder. It brings the chip back for a short period.

That's not hot enough to melt lead, tin, or anything else. The only way that such a small temperature increase could make any difference at all is if the additional heat causes enough thermal expansion to bring a broken bit of metal back together. That's far more likely to indicate a broken solder joint somewhere than anything else.

More importantly, that test provides no indication of whether that failed solder joint is inside the chip or under it, unless you've somehow found a miraculous way to heat up a chip without heating the solder joints underneath it, and without causing any thermal expansion of the outside of the chip's packaging. :)

I'm not saying that you are necessarily wrong—you could easily be correct—but nothing you have said qualifies as evidence, much less proof; it is all hearsay and anecdotes. A minimum standard of evidence for proving that the failure is internal to the chip would involve X-ray scans of an affected board, showing fractures in the chip where electrical conductivity is interrupted. Absent such evidence, statistics suggest that solder joints are the most likely culprit.


Our repair shop has had about 30 tickets per day, many being board repair, over the past three years. New York City is one of the top Mac places in the world in terms of population density of people with Macbooks over other brands, and people using them for artistic(read: CPU & GPU intensive) tasks. Give video editors reballed GPUs and watch what happens, it's not pretty.

The fact that some reballers fail is a meaningless piece of information. There are lots of people who have had reballing jobs (done by people who know what they are doing) and did not experience subsequent failures. Although we won't know with any real certainty whether reballing truly solved their problem until a few years have passed, the best evidence to date strongly suggests that the solder joints are the problem, and that reballing does fix that problem.

The reason the reballing shops you describe have failed is that doing reballing correctly is nontrivial, and it is far easier to do it wrong than to do it right. One critical difficulty with reballing is the need to remove every last trace of the existing solder. Otherwise, you get a weak spot where the two types of solder meet, and the result is a weak joint that fractures very easily.

Additionally, assuming that the reballing company also handles the rest of the repair job, if they don't know what they are doing, they'll screw up the heat sink installation, which can lead to a quick failure as well.
 

V.K.

macrumors 6502a
Dec 5, 2007
716
466
Toronto, Canada
VST sometimes doesn't pick them up but Furmark the GPU cooker sure does. I've actually had a client ring me from in the store saying a GPU passed the AHT - it didn't after good old Furmark!
I don't know much about various GPU tests but I assume they will run all the necessary tests now. At this point I'm fairly resigned to the fact that whatever it is a logic board replacement will be required. My only small hope is that it's RAM. But I did run memtest for a couple of hours and it found no issues so I'm pretty sure that's not it.
 

Gav Mack

macrumors 68020
Jun 15, 2008
2,193
22
Sagittarius A*
I don't know much about various GPU tests but I assume they will run all the necessary tests now. At this point I'm fairly resigned to the fact that whatever it is a logic board replacement will be required. My only small hope is that it's RAM. But I did run memtest for a couple of hours and it found no issues so I'm pretty sure that's not it.


Don't be shocked if you have non Apple ram that they try to blame it. It'll be the gpu for sure though I've read numerous other laughable excuses on the monster apple thread over the past year such as an ssd produces too much heat(!)
 

V.K.

macrumors 6502a
Dec 5, 2007
716
466
Toronto, Canada
Don't be shocked if you have non Apple ram that they try to blame it. It'll be the gpu for sure though I've read numerous other laughable excuses on the monster apple thread over the past year such as an ssd produces too much heat(!)

lol, I haven't heard the one about ssd. I do have 3rd party RAM. I didn't keep the original RAM sticks from Apple or I would have swapped them myself to see if that makes any difference. But I assume they have plenty of "approved" RAM for testing purposes at the Apple Store. I am not going to pay for new RAM without a definitive proof that the one I've got is bad.
 

Gav Mack

macrumors 68020
Jun 15, 2008
2,193
22
Sagittarius A*
lol, I haven't heard the one about ssd. I do have 3rd party RAM. I didn't keep the original RAM sticks from Apple or I would have swapped them myself to see if that makes any difference. But I assume they have plenty of "approved" RAM for testing purposes at the Apple Store. I am not going to pay for new RAM without a definitive proof that the one I've got is bad.

Just mention you soak tested with memtest and use a polite way to say that the artefacts are solely down to a bad GPU. I always have a fun time visiting a store with a client to see a genius remaining silent for as long as I can. Then I burst out with "Excuse me please, I've been taking Macs apart since before you were born so could we speak to the Lead Genius about this matter please?" :D
 

l.a.rossmann

macrumors 65816
May 15, 2009
1,096
372
Brooklyn
That's not hot enough to melt lead, tin, or anything else. The only way that such a small temperature increase could make any difference at all is if the additional heat causes enough thermal expansion to bring a broken bit of metal back together. That's far more likely to indicate a broken solder joint somewhere than anything else.

More importantly, that test provides no indication of whether that failed solder joint is inside the chip or under it, unless you've somehow found a miraculous way to heat up a chip without heating the solder joints underneath it, and without causing any thermal expansion of the outside of the chip's packaging. :)

I'm not saying that you are necessarily wrong—you could easily be correct—but nothing you have said qualifies as evidence, much less proof; it is all hearsay and anecdotes. A minimum standard of evidence for proving that the failure is internal to the chip would involve X-ray scans of an affected board, showing fractures in the chip where electrical conductivity is interrupted. Absent such evidence, statistics suggest that solder joints are the most likely culprit.




The fact that some reballers fail is a meaningless piece of information. There are lots of people who have had reballing jobs (done by people who know what they are doing) and did not experience subsequent failures. Although we won't know with any real certainty whether reballing truly solved their problem until a few years have passed, the best evidence to date strongly suggests that the solder joints are the problem, and that reballing does fix that problem.

The reason the reballing shops you describe have failed is that doing reballing correctly is nontrivial, and it is far easier to do it wrong than to do it right. One critical difficulty with reballing is the need to remove every last trace of the existing solder. Otherwise, you get a weak spot where the two types of solder meet, and the result is a weak joint that fractures very easily.

Additionally, assuming that the reballing company also handles the rest of the repair job, if they don't know what they are doing, they'll screw up the heat sink installation, which can lead to a quick failure as well.

All of this reads well, but in the real world just doesn't work. All I can suggest is try it for yourself. Try a few hundred jobs a month, reball half of them properly, replace GPU on other half. Keep records of all customer communication, follow up with each at 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, and 1 year, and document it all.

Personally I'm not spending $60,000 on an x-ray machine to prove a theory that experience & documentation has already proven. From the dude in his mom's basement to labratory like setups, we've worked with them all and it's given me the confidence that what I've proposed here is correct.

I don't really benefit one way or the other from other people beliving what I have to say. My goal is to save others the time & misery of going down a road that will cause failure from my experience. It doesn't affect me one way or the other what people believe from these posts.

One great fundamental common sense way to tell it's the chip and not the balls without reading an article, or taking out a blowdryer, or xraying a chip.... every laptop for the past seven years has been made with lead free solder joints. :) Mine litecoin on a T520 with cudaminer, it'll hit 85c to 90c in seconds, and you can keep it there for 4 months with lead free solder. Same for a ton of other laptops.

This is all speculation until you enter the real world and find out what works and what doesn't.
 

Gav Mack

macrumors 68020
Jun 15, 2008
2,193
22
Sagittarius A*
All of this reads well, but in the real world just doesn't work. All I can suggest is try it for yourself. Try a few hundred jobs a month, reball half of them properly, replace GPU on other half. Keep records of all customer communication, follow up with each at 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, and 1 year, and document it all.

Personally I'm not spending $60,000 on an x-ray machine to prove a theory that experience & documentation has already proven. From the dude in his mom's basement to labratory like setups, we've worked with them all and it's given me the confidence that what I've proposed here is correct.

I don't really benefit one way or the other from other people beliving what I have to say. My goal is to save others the time & misery of going down a road that will cause failure from my experience. It doesn't affect me one way or the other what people believe from these posts.

One great fundamental common sense way to tell it's the chip and not the balls without reading an article, or taking out a blowdryer, or xraying a chip.... every laptop for the past seven years has been made with lead free solder joints. :) Mine litecoin on a T520 with cudaminer, it'll hit 85c to 90c in seconds, and you can keep it there for 4 months with lead free solder. Same for a ton of other laptops.

This is all speculation until you enter the real world and find out what works and what doesn't.

Trial and error has always worked for me too hence why I always get a replacement GPU reballed with lead. Pb free always seem to fail more often and I even had a firm try to switch to lead free without telling me. The failure rates did! The 40c lower temperatures on a logic board with lead that has had enough heat cycles as it is I think does help, especially with the design of this classic twin processor unibody. Have you found that other parts besides the GPU need work also?

Think we have terms mixed up here over the pond - a reball is a new GPU over here and a reflow is an oven job or your existing GPU soldered back on.

And polish them heatsink die plates like mirror flat - with 80 % less paste than Apple that's one thing I can also tell you from my trial and error does help a lot with all of the classic unibodies keeping them 4-6c cooler than not never mind just this 2011. Even the 13's benefit with the single die.
 

Gav Mack

macrumors 68020
Jun 15, 2008
2,193
22
Sagittarius A*
Unigine Valley FTW. LB #3 lasted about 30 seconds for me!

Yeah that's another good one :D

----------

Unigine Valley FTW. LB #3 lasted about 30 seconds for me!

And bga-repairs on eBay is only in Hereford to get a decent fix, but sadly you don't have a virgin logic board with the best odds of long term success staying fixed.

Sale of goods act - retina 15 time on 3 strikes over here usually!
 

MagicBoy

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2006
3,947
1,025
Manchester, UK
Yeah that's another good one :D

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And bga-repairs on eBay is only in Hereford to get a decent fix, but sadly you don't have a virgin logic board with the best odds of long term success staying fixed.

Sale of goods act - retina 15 time on 3 strikes over here usually!

See the sig. Got a replacement rMBP in July. ;)

If I hadn't got a no-cost repair initially in April via SOGA I'd have been beating BGA Repairs door down. I was happy to give Apple the benefit of the doubt, but when LB#2 died after 21 days of light usage on mainly the integrated graphics the writing was on the wall. LB#3 was going to get pushed. I'd have bet on 30-40 minutes, not seconds...
 
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Gav Mack

macrumors 68020
Jun 15, 2008
2,193
22
Sagittarius A*
See the sig. Got a replacement rMBP in July. ;)

If I hadn't got a no-cost repair initially in April via SOGA I'd have been on the phone to BGA Repairs.

Sorry I blame Stella if you catch my drift, it is Friday night lol. I could never say on the huge Apple thread that if you mention the SOGA their game is up. I may have heard that allegedly from the mouth of a current manager from a UK store, off the record of course! We are very fortunate in the UK to have this brilliant bit of legislation, but it's seriously unfair to the other countries whose users are up a certain creek without a paddle and having to pay for what is a flawed repair with stupid engineering guidelines so they fail in true Groundhog Day style.

Me - I want my 17 to keep working till Apple bring out another big Apple laptop!
 

MagicBoy

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2006
3,947
1,025
Manchester, UK
Sorry I blame Stella if you catch my drift, it is Friday night lol. I could never say on the huge Apple thread that if you mention the SOGA their game is up. We are very fortunate in the UK to have this brilliant bit of legislation, but it's seriously unfair to the other countries whose users are up a certain creek without a paddle and having to pay for what is a flawed repair with stupid engineering guidelines so they fail in true Groundhog Day style.

Me - I want my 17 to keep working till Apple bring out another big Apple laptop!

No worries, I'm four pints to the good of something called Fuggle Bunny in the local ale hostelry. It's rather good. ;)

Hic!
 

Gav Mack

macrumors 68020
Jun 15, 2008
2,193
22
Sagittarius A*
No worries, I'm four pints to the good of something called Fuggle Bunny in the local ale hostelry. It's rather good. ;)

Hic!

On my fourth and last Nelson Mandela of the night as I type this.

What would be really good if Apple just changed 3 pages of their technicians manual and polished every single die plate they refitted into any classic unibody MacBook or pro never mind just this 2011. I kept asking them with feedback and emails to Tim and Jony but now we have this lawsuit where only the briefs truly win. My trial and error honed over years of experience knows it works, and it's a damn shame that Apple have had their lawyers overrule their engineers cos they surely must know unless they don't have someone who is so obsessed with that tiny part of a Mac like I am. I can't believe that though!

Sad state of affairs, even with the retinas like yours or even the Mac Pro 6,1 which design in terms of thermals is brilliant but still they lack the precision between the die and heatsink they have everywhere else. I have repasted my way with your model to stop GPU throttling in bootcamp for gaming to name just one example.

Tosspots - for the first time since Jobs came back I feel that Apple aren't an engineering company first and foremost and that doesnt feel good one bit.
 

MagicBoy

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2006
3,947
1,025
Manchester, UK
Sad state of affairs, even with the retinas like yours or even the Mac Pro 6,1 which design in terms of thermals is brilliant but still they lack the precision between the die and heatsink they have everywhere else. I have repasted my way with your model to stop GPU throttling in bootcamp for gaming to name just one example.

Tosspots - for the first time since Jobs came back I feel that Apple aren't an engineering company first and foremost and that doesnt feel good one bit.

Can't disagree with that. The retina heatsinks appear from the iFixit teardown photos better manufactured than the uMBP, and the finish is better.

I'd check, if it wasn't for those pesky pentalobe screws...
 

Gav Mack

macrumors 68020
Jun 15, 2008
2,193
22
Sagittarius A*
Can't disagree with that. The retina heatsinks appear from the iFixit teardown photos better manufactured than the uMBP, and the finish is better.

I'd check, if it wasn't for those pesky pentalobe screws...

I agree - never mind just the die plates being smoother but the whole system itself is hugely improved over the classics, but still does benefit from a shine and less and better paste nevertheless, yet to find a repaste that hasn't left a gamer satisfied on one of them.

Though not to the equally huge extent of the older models, and not just the one with chips really too hot to handle for it without in truth without any tlc; whoever specced the guidelines at the time should lose their job for being incompetent.

I try to not look at ifixit and stick to my memory and the official apple guides as a reference - mainly because they have a Europe store and I keep buying their new tools where you will find what you need to satisfy that curiosity of yours. It's really easy with the right things to paste a retina than a classic, and some stock Shin-etsu Apple paste for you to stick on like a big blob of blutack in case it goes back ;)
 

RayCanada

macrumors newbie
Nov 2, 2014
1
0
Feeling Ripped Off

I'm not surprised to see this a unfortunately. I bought a Mac Book pro within a few days it was in a shop that kept it for a week or so replaced numerous parts then the Logic board. About Little under a year or so I had Graphics issues on startup Apple kept the computer for a few weeks and replaced the logic board. I got the run around and I know for sure I was sold a three thousand dollar lemon, I hope they can launch suite in Canada I will be first in line to join and as an owner of many idevices I think I'm going to have to seriously reconsider my future purchase choices.
 

CyBeRino

macrumors 6502a
Jun 18, 2011
744
46
It is pretty stupid but the regulation comes from the EU. It is stupid in the sense that they demanded the removal of lead from electronics when there was no suitable replacement and frankly there still isnt a suitable replacement. The blame for this stupidity rest in the hands of Europe and there out of control regulatory bodies.

Our regulatory bodies aren't really out of control in this aspect. The reason they do this is because otherwise no progress would be made, ever. Usually what happens is we (mankind) figure out something we're doing is bad for us, and then the relevant regulatory body says 'as of date X (some time in the future), this practice will be prohibited'. The idea being that an alternative will be developed and actually used. If you don't do that, the practice won't stop and we'll still be poisoning ourselves for decades to come.
 

Gav Mack

macrumors 68020
Jun 15, 2008
2,193
22
Sagittarius A*
Our regulatory bodies aren't really out of control in this aspect. The reason they do this is because otherwise no progress would be made, ever. Usually what happens is we (mankind) figure out something we're doing is bad for us, and then the relevant regulatory body says 'as of date X (some time in the future), this practice will be prohibited'. The idea being that an alternative will be developed and actually used. If you don't do that, the practice won't stop and we'll still be poisoning ourselves for decades to come.

Lead levels dropped hugely since fuel went lead free, mission critical and defence industries are still excempt still as lead has the best properties for solder but worse for our cells but that isn't good enough to keep the lights on. Lead acid batteries dwarf kind of solder usage anyway and if you do the maths with the ppm of other elements within coal and the amount we have pumped out now and through history you can easily see where we should be focusing more attention on.

The lead solder issue in the lawsuit I don't actually think is correct, apart from issues in the market with quality of lead free that year. Lead for repairs I do think is prudent though. What wasn't prudent was Apple not redesigning or improving the thermal system putting a pair of chips too hot to handle without hardly changing a thing bar the size of the copper die plates by roughly 40% in area and approx 30% in current from the 2010 to fit the new processors, or even a few bucks more making the plates as shiny as they are in the later retinas to mitigate getting that heat out fast enough. Their computer models no doubt said it was fine but in real life things are always different with Apple Intel Macs.
 
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CyBeRino

macrumors 6502a
Jun 18, 2011
744
46
Lead levels dropped hugely since fuel went lead free, mission critical and defence industries are still excempt still as lead has the best properties for solder but worse for our cells but that isn't good enough to keep the lights on. Lead acid batteries dwarf kind of solder usage anyway and if you do the maths with the ppm of other elements within coal and the amount we have pumped out now and through history you can easily see where we should be focusing more attention on.

Lead is used in many places where it's still necessary to do so. The thing is that in most of those cases, random people aren't handling the material as much as they are electronics.

I solder things myself and I know leaded solder is just nicer, but it's still a bit of a health hazard when it's used in the quantities of generally available electronics.

By the way another place we've entirely stopped using lead because it had the exact same problem: paint.

Anyway I'm not completely opposed to using leaded solder where that is necessary -- in many cases, it just isn't but there are some higher-temperature applications where human contact with the solder is unlikely (like, say, BGA arrays under high-performance chips), where the trade-off can be made if you ask me.
 

slapple

macrumors 6502
Jul 25, 2008
466
21
I emailed the law firm handling this class action lawsuit since they say it's only on behalf of California and Florida residents. They say they don't have any representatives from any other state, so only people living in CA and FL will be able to receive any compensation. They can't sue on behalf of people living in other states unless people from those states volunteer to be representatives for those states. I don't know exactly what that entails, but they will discuss it with you if you are interested.
 

zyr123

macrumors 6502
May 31, 2009
478
47
Class Action Lawsuit Filed Against Apple Over 2011 MacBook Pro Graphics Issues

How I fix Radeon gate. It turns off. Then needs to get very hot turn back on. So this is how I keep her alive. ImageUploadedByTapatalk1421100846.805520.jpg
 
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