BBC Documentary Claims Apple Fails to Protect Chinese Factory Workers

sualpine said:

And you're proud of this? Or lying?

Click to expand...

Even if this obviously egocentric person were proud or lying, it is fairly common practice for startups.

That said, the difference is that employees working this laborously in countries like the USA tend to expect a large eventual payout. I strongly doubt the payout for these factory workers is ever much more than a modest life at best and comfortable cremation at the end.

ani4ani said:

.....and still have time to spout drivel here. I bet your still at "work" giving it your all.

Click to expand...

when you're the boss, you can decide when you work and when you don't.

maybe when you learn the difference between "your" and "you're," with some luck, even you may get to control your schedule.

macintologist said:

You want to be careful with journalism as a truth-seeking enterprise. Remember that the point of journalism is to sell a story, and stories don't go over well if they are nuanced, complicated and don't neatly fit into a pre-existing narrative. If they found video footage of employees being satisfied, they wouldn't include that in the documentary because it makes the story less compelling.

Beware of the narrative. The truth is complicated and messy. This documentary represents a slice of the truth, but it's not the whole truth.

Click to expand...

This isn't some rag. It's the BBC. They hold themselves to a higher standard than the crap you're used to.

All long discussed by the look of it, but yeah caught bits of this last night.

Seems like typical Apple hater stuff to me, singling out Apple for what is an industry-wide problem.

Working conditions in China are a problem - no question whatsoever. But who else uses factories like Foxconn? HTC, Samsung, Sony, Asus.... pretty much everyone..

The only ones trying to do something about it and being transparent and honest about it are Apple, and yet because they haven't completely solved China's sweatshop problems overnight, suddenly they're the bad guy and they're the ones to blame, while all the other electronics companies get away scot free and don't get any of the negative press?

What are they supposed to do, exactly? Some of Apple's manufacturing has moved back to the US, but there's a deeply ingrained worldwide dependence on China for manufacturing that isn't going to disappear overnight (and if it did, millions of people in China would be jobless and starving - growing rice just won't sustain a population that size)

Just came across this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...UK-staff-over-Chinese-factory-conditions.html

Apple's response to BBC documentary.

They think that is bad. They should check out the working conditions during World Cup preparations. Now that is some serious workers violations

Let's not forget Apple ISN'T the employer here. Apple doesn't own the factories. Are they also investigating how Nike shoes are made too?

Although Apple could be doing more to ensure the employees assembling their products are treated more fairly, it is ultimately down to the Chinese government to legislate against worker exploitation.

Cheap Chinese labour is like a drug to western companies and consumers. Everyone knows that unless a product is made in a developed country there will be a certain amount of exploitation and corruption going on. But it's too easy. It's like refined sugar - we know we shouldn't but it's so cheap and tastes so good that our desire outweighs our conscience.

So what happens? All the journalists who call out companies like Apple then go back to using their MacBooks and iPhones. We all have a little bit of guilt and we feel that because we've had this discussion it admonishes us of any complicity and we can carry on buying thinking that someone somewhere else will sort the problem out.

I'm as bad as anyone. I only buy free range and organic food but when looking for electronics I only give ethical credentials a cursory glance then concentrate on design and specs.

So I'll continue, as most people who are criticising or defending Apple here wil, to buy Chinese made consumer electronics with a pinch of white, liberal, middle class guilt and hope that between Apple, their suppliers and the Chinese government they can work to improve conditions.

Having said all that, if you want to look at extreme deprivation in China, look at agriculture. Makes electronics factories look like a 9-5. Many people move to cities from the country to get these jobs because as horrid as it sounds by our western standards, it's a hell of a lot better than working in rice fields.

I can imagine this is a nightmare for Apple to fully monitor. Think about it… 600,000+ Contract workers… how can you monitor all of them even with 1000+ people on-site trying to monitor them.

Based on my experience when dealing with some Chinese people, all I can say is it's horrible how they treat their own people. Next time you go to a local Chinese buffet restaurant, know that most of the workers you see there are working 7 days a week, from open to close. And that's right in our own backyard.

I'm sure there's violations here. But I don't believe Apple Executives are in support of this. Also, keep in mind, today's journalism goes for sensationalism to get viewers. So, you have balance what's shown.

I do hope Apple can help clean this up… but they are fighting an uphill battle and fighting years of cultural corruption and self-exploitation.

Lastly… I think you could go to factories where just about any electronics, toys or clothes are made in this region of the world and find these sorts of violations.

scat999999 said:

Let's not forget Apple ISN'T the employer here. Apple doesn't own the factories. Are they also investigating how Nike shoes are made too?

Click to expand...

Well, yes? They actually did that already:

In 2001, a BBC documentary uncovered occurrences of child labor and poor working conditions in a Cambodian factory used by Nike.[47] The documentary focused on six girls, who all worked seven days a week, often 16 hours a day.

Click to expand...

Nike also claims it doesn't have control over working conditions in the factories since the factories are sub-contracted. This didn't and doesn't spare them from criticism.

Cloudane said:

All long discussed by the look of it, but yeah caught bits of this last night.

Seems like typical Apple hater stuff to me, singling out Apple for what is an industry-wide problem.

Working conditions in China are a problem - no question whatsoever. But who else uses factories like Foxconn? HTC, Samsung, Sony, Asus.... pretty much everyone..

The only ones trying to do something about it and being transparent and honest about it are Apple, and yet because they haven't completely solved China's sweatshop problems overnight, suddenly they're the bad guy and they're the ones to blame, while all the other electronics companies get away scot free and don't get any of the negative press?

What are they supposed to do, exactly? Some of Apple's manufacturing has moved back to the US, but there's a deeply ingrained worldwide dependence on China for manufacturing that isn't going to disappear overnight (and if it did, millions of people in China would be jobless and starving - growing rice just won't sustain a population that size)

Click to expand...

Apple are being targeted because they are the most valuable company in the world and with their billions of cash reserves, they have the ultimate power and influence to make huge changes. Instead, Apple feds us all their usual marketing crap about how much they care about the supply chain and what they're doing to improve it.

Just because Apple appears to be trying to make a difference, doesn't mean they are doing much. The fact that they sit on billions while their manufacturing is criminal says it all.

But of course, it's easy to just blame Foxconn and not Apple when it's Apple that sets the criteria.

SHNXX said:

when you're the boss, you can decide when you work and when you don't.

maybe when you learn the difference between "your" and "you're," with some luck, even you may get to control your schedule.

Click to expand...

Actually my friend, I am the boss and see "your" type of 60 hours a week every day of my life. If you are truly working 60 hours a week and you're the boss, you would know that it is for that exact reason you cannot choose when to work or not! By the way, I hope your grasp of your second language is as good as mine.

scat999999 said:

Let's not forget Apple ISN'T the employer here. Apple doesn't own the factories. Are they also investigating how Nike shoes are made too?

Click to expand...

Apple doesn't own the factories, so if the factories leak photos of Apple's new products, Apple doesn't really have a say, do they?

If Apple can demand that non-Apple factories producing Apple products live up to a certain level of IP security, they can also demand that the factories meet certain criteria for how well they treat their employees.

If Apple doesn't insist (and sanction the factories that are not compliant) then Apple is to blame.

Stories like this hurt Apple's image, which is important to them.

Ironduke said:

No you have no idea t learnt anything from college you are so far off the mark with the bbc try expanding your mind instead of acting like a xenophobic troll

Click to expand...

What are you trying to say? A weak and pathetic attempt at trying to insult me?
Or is it, if something doesn't fit your tight little uniformed narrative, you lash out at the ones that attempt to educated you, but you will have none of that.


Xenophobe...haha...hardly.
I guarantee you, that I have spent more time in your so called country than you have spent in mine.
O-blightey.

Kilamite said:

Apple are being targeted because they are the most valuable company in the world and with their billions of cash reserves, they have the ultimate power and influence to make huge changes.

Click to expand...

Huge changes in a communist country? Not very likely. Change ultimately has to come from within China itself. Apple does not employ, own or control any of the workers that make its products from a Chinese company.

Just because Apple appears to be trying to make a difference, doesn't mean they are doing much. The fact that they sit on billions while their manufacturing is criminal says it all.

Click to expand...

Apple can only do so much. Most of which its hands are tied as Chinas government and its factories fail to enforce their own laws.

But of course, it's easy to just blame Foxconn and not Apple when it's Apple that sets the criteria.

Click to expand...

Of course its easy to blame Foxconn as thats where the problem originates....DUH! Don't pass the blame to someone else.

Sadly this kind of supply chain of abuse of workers goes on. I watched the programme last night and it was a little harsh on Apple. The contrast between these poor employees plight and Apple's exaggerated profit margins is quite obscene.

BUT... I do not want my Apple product made by somebody who is that tired. 55 hour averages are too long. I work around 40-45 and if 55 is the average then some workers are presumably doing much more.

Irrespective of the rights and wrongs... it is just not good from a quality control perspective and perhaps goes some way to explaining some of the QC shortfalls that I have personally experienced.

For example, an IPAD mini retina with the plastic protective film from the screen sticking out between the bezel and the screen. Shoddy work.

scat999999 said:

Let's not forget Apple ISN'T the employer here. Apple doesn't own the factories. Are they also investigating how Nike shoes are made too?

Click to expand...

Not quite. That Pegatron factory exists solely because of Apple. It produces Apple products and nothing else 24/7. No Samsung, HTC, Lenovo or any other products. Just Apple's. Apple sets the prices and volumes. Effective control of that factory is with Apple and Apple is very much the employer. Pegatron just carries out the admin and donkey work and tries to keep costs down so that it can make some profit whilst Apple maintains its usual 35%-40% margin. Those lower down the food chain pay the price.

bandrews said:

Although Apple could be doing more to ensure the employees assembling their products are treated more fairly, it is ultimately down to the Chinese government to legislate against worker exploitation.

Click to expand...

The documentary made clear for those who saw it that legislation is not the whole problem, especially where Pegatron is concerned. There is a whole raft of legislation in China that exists to protect workers' rights but those are systematically abused and ignored by Pegatron. Apple's role in overseeing best practice was revealed to be woefully inadequate despite Apple's public declarations to the contrary.

Apple's role in this is somewhat akin to a slum landlord. Of course, if you don't like your accommodation you can always move out as plenty who have not seen the documentary have opined. Cold comfort, indeed.

thalazy said:

'
It's a problem that Apple and many other tech companies can do very little about. This is a China labor issue. Unless Apple and every other electronics company that uses Foxconn decides to cancel their contract and build their own facility that will strictly adhere to safety standards that they can all agree to, there isn't much that they can do.

Click to expand...

You provided one option for Apple and other companies but they won't because they are about making revenue.

If Apple production stopped, all eyes would be on Foxconn(or other China factories) to step up.
This would get world wide attention and support.

The fact is Apple does NOT care and those who keep defending them are supporting abusive labor practices and consider them are OK(-referring to comments if they don't like the job, they can quit[no income and survive on alleyway scraps]).

----------

Cloudane said:

All long discussed by the look of it, but yeah caught bits of this last night.

Seems like typical Apple hater stuff to me, singling out Apple for what is an industry-wide problem.

Working conditions in China are a problem - no question whatsoever. But who else uses factories like Foxconn? HTC, Samsung, Sony, Asus.... pretty much everyone..

The only ones trying to do something about it and being transparent and honest about it are Apple, and yet because they haven't completely solved China's sweatshop problems overnight, suddenly they're the bad guy and they're the ones to blame, while all the other electronics companies get away scot free and don't get any of the negative press?

What are they supposed to do, exactly? Some of Apple's manufacturing has moved back to the US, but there's a deeply ingrained worldwide dependence on China for manufacturing that isn't going to disappear overnight (and if it did, millions of people in China would be jobless and starving - growing rice just won't sustain a population that size)

Click to expand...

Apple talks about changing the world to make it better.
Well, let start by doing something that means something more than profit.

They are in a position to make an impact.
It's their choice to turn a blind eye for the sake of profits.

Pegatron CEO has strongly denied BBC accusations. He also provided some explanations. http://udn.com/NEWS/BREAKINGNEWS/BREAKINGNEWS6/9140594.shtml
It is amazing many comments blasted Pegatron CEO.

weckart said:

Not quite. That Pegatron factory exists solely because of Apple. It produces Apple products and nothing else 24/7. No Samsung, HTC, Lenovo or any other products. Just Apple's.

Click to expand...

Nonsense, Pegatron makes other products that Apple does not sell. Such as
broadband, wireless systems, game consoles, networking equipment, Set-top boxes, multimedia, LCD TVs, netbooks. They do in fact make products for other companies including Google, Microsoft, Hewlett-Packard, and Dell.

Apple sets the prices and volumes. Effective control of that factory is with Apple and Apple is very much the employer. Pegatron just carries out the admin and donkey work and tries to keep costs down so that it can make some profit whilst Apple maintains its usual 35%-40% margin. Those lower down the food chain pay the price.

Click to expand...

Its a Chinese factory that is not controlled by Apple.

linuxcooldude said:

Its a Chinese factory that is not controlled by Apple.

Click to expand...

Oh come on it is controlled by Apple.

arobertson676 said:

Oh come on it is controlled by Apple.

Click to expand...

Proof? Let me guess...none.

arobertson676 said:

Oh come on it is controlled by Apple.

Click to expand...

You are partially correct. Apple controls Pegatron through business contracts. Pegatron instead directly controls the factory.

arobertson676 said:

Oh come on it is controlled by Apple.

Click to expand...

linuxcooldude said:

Proof? Let me guess...none.

Click to expand...

you're both partially write IMHO.

While apple isn't the owner of pegatron, and therefore not directly responsible for the way Pegatron operates, Apple is Pegatron's (and other factories) largest purchaser. Apple's constant business ethics of Mandatory profit margins, and low balling vendors in a race for the cheapest, they have been part of the problem that encourages and endorses this sort of behaviour by their vendors.

The Vendors, in order to maintain their cheapness and cost effectiveness, which Apple and many others desires so much, have to operate with these ridiculous hours and wages for employees. it is the only way many of these companies can come even close to a winning bid. If suppliers were willing to pay contracts that were more in the "living wages" area, designed so that there's enough money involved that the suppliers can put in proper standards, these factories could hire more people, reduce hours people have to work and increase wages.

of course, then you might as well move production back home, and help our own economies out... but that doesn't please Stock holders. so we continue to perpetuate the overseas cheap labour situation in order to maximize those profits at the cost of those working there.

Imagine if they simply made their products here and decided it was OK make less money. We would have good paying jobs and good products, but wouldn't be maximizing profits.

So more of the people that buy your products would be able to afford more of them.