G4 QS Hard Drive Installation Issue

captainsmirk · Jan 22, 2015

Periodic lurker, but decided to finally make an account after I got these babies:

off craigslist for a total of $30.

It's a G4 Sawtooth (450MHz) and a G4 Quicksilver (867MHz).

My plan is to use the QS to run OSX (it has 10.4.11 installed), Linux, and indulge in a bit of nostalgia and frustration with OS 9 (NOT installed! I'll have to see if any of the shops around here still have any floating around). For the Sawtooth, I'm going to eventually use it for a casemod project, and strip it of parts in the meantime. And that's where we run into an issue.

The QS had a dead PRAM battery that I was able to replace with the one from the Sawtooth, and the Sawtooth had an additional PCI video card I put in as well. So far, so good.

But when I tried to put the 26GB hard drive from the Sawtooth into the GS, things went awry. I put it in the slot above the stock harddrive in the QS and started things up. I got the good old flashing ? folder. Restarted and held down Option and it was unable to find any drive to boot up. I rechecked the connections and tried again and got the same thing. (Also, the case seems to have a harder time closing with the second hard drive in. What's up with that?)

I took out the second drive and the QS started up fine again. So what's the issue here? Is it creating some sort of panic because I didn't wipe the drive from the Sawtooth first? If so, I'll have to track down copies of OS 9 and/or OSX (a good idea anyway), since I haven't had luck booting either of them from USB. Is it something I'm completely missing?

Thanks!

eyoungren · Jan 22, 2015

Both Macs use the IDE (PATA) interface. These are not SATA drives where you can just plug and play. IDE drives have three different modes. Master, Slave and Cable Select (CS).

If the drive is old enough you will only have Master and Slave. Take a look at the jumpers on the drives (usually around where the IDE cable plugs in. There should be a diagram telling you what option is what for M, S, or CS. If both drives have CS, use it on both. But if there is at least one drive that does not have CS then decide which one you want to be the master and which one the slave and plug in the jumpers accordingly. If there are no jumpers on the back of either drive, you'll need to find some. Little plastic deals that fit over both pins.

You will want to connect the Master drive to the connector it was connected to originally and the Slave drive to the other connector. If you are using CS it doesn't matter.

Note that in your new adventures you will find that both Macs are limited to a 128GB drive size. There are ways around this (PCI based SATA cards, Intech Hi-Cap driver) but it's something you should be aware of.

Welcome fellow Quicksilver owner! I love the QS and believe it's the most beautiful Mac model Apple ever made. Have fun with yours! P.S. Yes, the case it a tight fit. Start adding stuff as I have and you are going to find it very cramped!

Here is my QS by the way. I'm working on one more video card and then I can light up those other two displays.

captainsmirk · Jan 22, 2015

Thanks for the quick response! I'm excited to get to know these computers. I was a Mac user in the 90s, then drifted away, only to come back (coincidentally) just after the Intel switch. So while I've used friends', I've never had a PowerPC computer of my own.

I knew about the 128GB limit (this can be worked around with partitions, right?). And do you know if there's much of a difference between using an adapter or a PCI card for SATA drives as I expand from here? (This thread: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1650568/ is really informative about how compatible various SATA PCI cards are).

Okay, as far as setting Master/Slave/Cable Select. The drive from the QS (40GB with 10.4.11 installed) has two jumpers and a chart for the various configurations (right now it's CS). The other drive only has one jumper, no chart, and one fewer pin where the drivers go (the one from the QS is 5, then 4. This one is 4 and 4). But, there are a couple combos written on the bottom of the drive:

WS, PK, CS, and DS (which is currently selected).

Do I just want to do both with CS, following the layout for each drive?

eyoungren · Jan 22, 2015

captainsmirk said:
Thanks for the quick response! I'm excited to get to know these computers. I was a Mac user in the 90s, then drifted away, only to come back (coincidentally) just after the Intel switch. So while I've used friends', I've never had a PowerPC computer of my own.

I had ALWAYS wanted the QS, so when a friend of mine had one up for sale I jumped on it (and got rid of three iBook G3s I didn't care for).

It's always awesome to come home from this stupid MacPro at work and get on MY Quicksilver!

captainsmirk said:
I knew about the 128GB limit (this can be worked around with partitions, right?). And do you know if there's much of a difference between using an adapter or a PCI card for SATA drives as I expand from here? (This thread: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1650568/ is really informative about how compatible various SATA PCI cards are).

No. Because the entire capacity of the drive is not being seen. You can partition up the first 128GB any way you like but if there is more capacity (say a 250GB drive) you won't see it. The firmware only sees the first 128GB and that's it.

I have never used an adapter, but I understand that getting the right one is tricky because some of them are just unstable. There is a thread here that shows you how you can buy a PCI SATA card intended for PC and flash it to Mac. I got one for $10 and saved a ton of money.

captainsmirk said:
Okay, as far as setting Master/Slave/Cable Select. The drive from the QS (40GB with 10.4.11 installed) has two jumpers and a chart for the various configurations (right now it's CS). The other drive only has one jumper, no chart, and one fewer pin where the drivers go (the one from the QS is 5, then 4. This one is 4 and 4). But, there are a couple combos written on the bottom of the drive:

WS, PK, CS, and DS (which is currently selected).

Do I just want to do both with CS, following the layout for each drive?

Just put both of them on CS, since they both have CS. Cable Select lets the drives and the firmware figure out which drive is the boot drive.

captainsmirk · Jan 22, 2015

Seems to be working like a charm! Thanks again for your help!

No. Because the entire capacity of the drive is not being seen. You can partition up the first 128GB any way you like but if there is more capacity (say a 250GB drive) you won't see it. The firmware only sees the first 128GB and that's it.

Ah, okay. There's a little bit of contradictory information about this out there (I've seen both that it's a hardware/driver limitation and that it's actually just a limitation in OS 9). My only other drives right now are 160GB SATA drives I've pulled from old Macbooks, so that's not a huge limitation until I'm ready to upgrade (plus, you say it should be okay if the drives are controlled from the PCI card, right?).

That is an impressive looking setup you have there! What're the specs on your QS and what have you added to it?

eyoungren · Jan 22, 2015

captainsmirk said:
Seems to be working like a charm! Thanks again for your help!

Ah, okay. There's a little bit of contradictory information about this out there (I've seen both that it's a hardware/driver limitation and that it's actually just a limitation in OS 9). My only other drives right now are 160GB SATA drives I've pulled from old Macbooks, so that's not a huge limitation until I'm ready to upgrade (plus, you say it should be okay if the drives are controlled from the PCI card, right?).

That is an impressive looking setup you have there! What're the specs on your QS and what have you added to it?

A SATA card will enable you to see the full capacity of the drive(s) connected to it. The 128GB limitation comes from the logicboard.

Now, if your Quicksilver happens to be the 2001 model then you are in luck, because those versions actually break the 128GB limit. My QS is the older version, but I'm using a SATA card so I've got no issues there.

My QS?

1.2GHZ Sonnet G4 (I have a dual 1.8GHZ, but it's unstable)
1.5GB ram (the max you can have in the QS)
1 ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB video card
1 ATI Radeon 7000 video card
1 SATA card
2x 1TB hard drives (total of 2TB)
1 USB 2.0 four port PCI card
1 22" Cinema Display
2x 17" Studio Displays
1 20" HDTV
2x 18" Gateway monitors

By Saturday I am hoping to be replacing the 9800 with a FireGL X3 with 256mb ram and adding in a ATI Radeon 9200 Pro

For the three Apple displays I have three A1006 ADC/DVI converters. These devices allow you to use ADC displays with video cards that have DVI ports. Since ADC displays require power and DVI ports to NOT provide power it's necessary to have a converter that will power the display and pass along the digital (DVI) signal.

I could totally use different displays of much bigger size, but I want to stay true to the period and that means the acrylic displays. Ultimately I will eventually have six 23" HD Cinema Displays - which is going to take time and money to get.

Six displays is crazy, but it's what I want and the Mac is capable.

archtopshop · Jan 22, 2015

Welcome to the forum!

You can also break the 128GB limit on the Sawtooth by using one of these:

Acard AEC-6280M PCI Ultra ATA-133 IDE Controller Card

They are bootable and allow up to 4 IDE drives to be connected on two different channels. I ran one in my Sawtooth for about 5 years with (eventually) four hard drives connected and it worked well.

The can be had on eBay for pretty cheap. If you decide to go this route, try to get one that includes the cables. The cards originally shipped with two, two-headed ribbon cables.

The SATA cards already mentioned are probably the preferred way to go because they offer new, and larger hard drive options. Still, if you already have a supply of IDE drives, this card works well.

captainsmirk · Jan 22, 2015

eyoungren said:
Now, if your Quicksilver happens to be the 2001 model then you are in luck, because those versions actually break the 128GB limit. My QS is the older version, but I'm using a SATA card so I've got no issues there.

I do have the 2001 model (though, I forget what it was that made me sure of that at the moment...). What do you mean they break the limit? That I can using IDE or that I'll be able to using a SATA card?

That's a true battlestation you have going there! And definitely good to know about the stability when using a processor that fast (something I've also seen mention of poking around the forums), as I plan on upgrading at some point (though, man, the prices of these things are still pretty high!). Do you know at which speed things to start to get unstable?

archtopshop said:
Welcome to the forum!

Thanks! I hope to stick around and be able to contribute more than questions at some point!

The SATA cards already mentioned are probably the preferred way to go because they offer new, and larger hard drive options. Still, if you already have a supply of IDE drives, this card works well.

I only have the two IDE cards from the G4s I got, and they're only 40GB and 26GB. The only other drives I have right now are SATA HDDs, and at some point (ie, when I have money), I'm sure I'll throw an SSD or two in. But, if I come across any good IDE drive deals, I'll keep this in mind.

eyoungren · Jan 22, 2015

captainsmirk said:
I do have the 2001 model (though, I forget what it was that made me sure of that at the moment...). What do you mean they break the limit? That I can using IDE or that I'll be able to using a SATA card?

That's a true battlestation you have going there! And definitely good to know about the stability when using a processor that fast (something I've also seen mention of poking around the forums), as I plan on upgrading at some point (though, man, the prices of these things are still pretty high!). Do you know at which speed things to start to get unstable?

Sorry, I meant the 2002 Quicksilvers!

The logicboard firmware on the 2002s was updated to allow for drives larger than 128GB, so you would be 'breaking' the 128GB barrier. That's native, on the IDE bus.

My Mac is more of a tempermental Italian sports car with a bad cooling system and and banking hours.

The Sonnet, the 1.2Ghz I have right now, which is actually the processor I bought it with is more of a domestic midsized sedan. It goes fast enough and performs well enough but never as fast as the sports car I mentioned above.

I don't know about other processors, but my 1.8 dual is a GigaDesigns processor and I've come to find that compared to Sonnet these things are just not designed very well.

Sonnet makes some good processor cards (which go for upward of $300 on eBay).

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