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bunnspecial

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 3, 2014
8,317
6,373
Kentucky
I installed two additional fans-an 80mm on top of the two CPU fans, and the blower in the Zip bay.

I think that I'm going to have to knock the blower down to 7V-at 12V, it makes the computer sound like a vacuum cleaner and pushes enough air to blow papers around.

I'm still tinkering with voltages, but I've at least been able to get a few minutes of stable operation at 1.6ghz and 1.45V.

I also need to get some electrical tape to clean things up and make them look a little bit better-I can't seem to put my hands on a roll. All the electrical connections I show are soldered, so the Scotch tape is really just serving as an insulator.

I'm considering taking the time to lap the heatsink also-obviously something is going on here to that's keeping the processors from getting as cool as they should be.
 

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poiihy

macrumors 68020
Aug 22, 2014
2,301
62
I installed two additional fans-an 80mm on top of the two CPU fans, and the blower in the Zip bay.

I think that I'm going to have to knock the blower down to 7V-at 12V, it makes the computer sound like a vacuum cleaner and pushes enough air to blow papers around.

I'm still tinkering with voltages, but I've at least been able to get a few minutes of stable operation at 1.6ghz and 1.45V.

I also need to get some electrical tape to clean things up and make them look a little bit better-I can't seem to put my hands on a roll. All the electrical connections I show are soldered, so the Scotch tape is really just serving as an insulator.

I'm considering taking the time to lap the heatsink also-obviously something is going on here to that's keeping the processors from getting as cool as they should be.

oooooooooo blower vac very cool :D :D :D

I'd like to do that :D

But does it actually make any difference of the air temperature inside at all?
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 3, 2014
8,317
6,373
Kentucky
Back to 1.33ghz-this time at 1.45V. I just can't it to be stable at 1.6 for any appreciable length of time, although I did get it there long enough to take a screen shot. For the couple of minutes I had it running, I was getting weird screen artifacts and other issues.

A couple of reports with the additional fans:

1. 1.45V and 1.5V both were probably equally stable, although it probably ran a little bit longer at 1.45 than at 1.5.

2. I was able to get it to boot at 1.55, but it hung at the blue screen

3. 1.6V cause a kernel panic on booting

4. 1.4V would get stuck at the Apple with the spinning wheel under it.

I've also disconnected that obnoxious front blower for the time being until I rewire it for 7V. :) I may also completely remove the Zip bezel to provide a little bit less restriction-and hopefully less noise. If I do that, I'll probably put the Zip drive in my dual 1ghz. I have a spare blank bezel around here from a Quicksilver I junked-I may try opening that up and putting some sort of mesh or something in it so that I have something that looks decent over the opening, but is less restrictive than the Zip bezel.
 

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bunnspecial

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 3, 2014
8,317
6,373
Kentucky
oooooooooo blower vac very cool :D :D :D

I'd like to do that :D

But does it actually make any difference of the air temperature inside at all?

The only thing I have to go by is the hard drive temperature, and my finger.

Normally, the front part of the base of the case will get warm-but not hot. With the blower running full blast, the base of the case stays more or less at room temperature. The hard drives also stay fairly cool.

I doubt the blower is moving much air directly over the processors. If you look at the basic layout of the QS case, it basically is only drawing air out of the bottom part of the case-the PCI cards also seem to stay fairly cool. After 20-30 minutes of use, the heatsink on the GPU-a Radeon 9000-would normally be warm(I'm driving a 22" Cinema Display under Leopard), but with the blower running it stays cool to the touch.

So, I'd say overall it benefits the hard drives and cards, but probably not the processors. Even so, reducing the total amount of heat in the case isn't a bad thing, and probably ultimately helps the processor run cooler.
 

eyoungren

macrumors Penryn
Aug 31, 2011
28,794
26,884
Bunns, I believe you are now discovering my situation. Fully loaded out, Apple did Quicksilver owners no favors by it's slipshod thermal design. They made everything fit in like a Tetris puzzle and it's wonderful - but it leaves no room for heat dissipation if you are using more than the "average" load out. She has great beauty on the outside, but she's a mess on the inside. It's unfortunate as I expected much better of Apple on their internal design.

This is why I removed a lot of internal metal parts and punched a hole in the bottom of my QS. I hesitate to suggest that to you, however in my case, it reduced hard drive temps by 12 or more degrees.
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 3, 2014
8,317
6,373
Kentucky
Bunns, I believe you are now discovering my situation. Fully loaded out, Apple did Quicksilver owners no favors by it's slipshod thermal design. They made everything fit in like a Tetris puzzle and it's wonderful - but it leaves no room for heat dissipation if you are using more than the "average" load out. She has great beauty on the outside, but she's a mess on the inside. It's unfortunate as I expected much better of Apple on their internal design.

This is why I removed a lot of internal metal parts and punched a hole in the bottom of my QS. I hesitate to suggest that to you, however in my case, it reduced hard drive temps by 12 or more degrees.

If I end up punching a hole in the bottom of the case, it will NOT be in this particular case, as I like the computer too much.

I'd actually assembled another QS from spare parts that I'd originally intended for this project, but given your past issues I thought I might be better to start with a known-good working one(I haven't even tried to boot my put-together one yet).
 

eyoungren

macrumors Penryn
Aug 31, 2011
28,794
26,884
If I end up punching a hole in the bottom of the case, it will NOT be in this particular case, as I like the computer too much.

I'd actually assembled another QS from spare parts that I'd originally intended for this project, but given your past issues I thought I might be better to start with a known-good working one(I haven't even tried to boot my put-together one yet).
Well, it kind of hurt for me to do that too. However, in the end (at least for me) the overall effect and cooling made it worthwhile. As this is the ONLY QS I own (and the only PowerMac) it was this case or nothing. It was a last resort but it worked.

Again, I'm not saying you should do this. Just laying out my solution as an option - nothing more.

I truly do like the blue light effect I got out of it at the bottom though!
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 3, 2014
8,317
6,373
Kentucky
This may be a bit of an extreme solution, but it should be fun to play with if nothing else.

Someone at work suggested a Peltier heat pump, so I went shopping on Ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/311098286819?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

(MODS: Not my auction, just something I bought).

I'm hoping that I can fit one between each processor core and the heatsink. I may have to replace the heatsink screws, but that shouldn't be a problem as they look to me to be a standard machine screw(maybe 8-32, but I can check on this). In the worst case, I can drill them out and tap them to a standard size(and get rid of those stupid pin-headed screws so that I don't have to get out the point spanner to take the heatsink off.

If these work, I may even be able to get to the mythical 2ghz without liquid cooling :). If they just let me get 1.8ghz, I'll be happy.

Plus, I should be able to cure the thermal paste with the CPU off, since reversing the polarity on these will change the hot/cold side.
 

poiihy

macrumors 68020
Aug 22, 2014
2,301
62
This may be a bit of an extreme solution, but it should be fun to play with if nothing else.

Someone at work suggested a Peltier heat pump, so I went shopping on Ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/311098286819?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

(MODS: Not my auction, just something I bought).

I'm hoping that I can fit one between each processor core and the heatsink. I may have to replace the heatsink screws, but that shouldn't be a problem as they look to me to be a standard machine screw(maybe 8-32, but I can check on this). In the worst case, I can drill them out and tap them to a standard size(and get rid of those stupid pin-headed screws so that I don't have to get out the point spanner to take the heatsink off.

If these work, I may even be able to get to the mythical 2ghz without liquid cooling :). If they just let me get 1.8ghz, I'll be happy.

Plus, I should be able to cure the thermal paste with the CPU off, since reversing the polarity on these will change the hot/cold side.

ooooo thermoelectric cooler those are really cool (and hot) :D
When you apply voltage to them, one side gets warmer and the other side gets cooler.
But when one side is warmer and the other side is cooler it supplies voltage.
It works both ways!
So when you have it in between your CPU and heatsink,
you could either power it to help cool the CPU,
or you could use it to generate electricity and maybe use this to power a fan on the heatsink.

How hot/cold do those things get when they are powered at full power?
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 3, 2014
8,317
6,373
Kentucky
Before going full-on with the Peltier, I thought that I'd give lapping the heatsink a try. Improving the contact area between the heatsink and processor is always beneficial, so thought I didn't have anything to lose by trying this.

For those interested, here's the general process. This was the first heatsink I've lapped, but have done enough high-precision work(I am a watchmaker) that I was familiar with the general process.

First, I removed the heatsink

IMG_4471.jpg


IMG_4472.jpg


IMG_4473.jpg


(since I did this whole thing on my watchmaking bench, I "photobombed" a disassembled Bunn Special in the background :) )

And gave it a good cleaning with denatured alcohol to get rid of the thermal compound and other "crap" left behind.

IMG_4474.jpg


As you can see, the finish on the heatsink is actually pretty poor, with a lot of remnants of machining marks.

Once cleaned, my first step was to take a sharpie and color the entire bottom surface of the heatsink. I've not seen any online guides that suggest doing this, but it's a pretty standard technique in machining. Basically, since I'm assuming that the lapping surface(sandpaper on a sheet of glass) is perfectly flat, the sharpie allows me to monitor the flatness of the heatsink.

IMG_4475.jpg


All the finishing work was done wet-copper is a very difficult metal to work with, and tends to be fairly "gummy" on abrasives. The liquid-which can be either water or oil-helps to carry the abraded metal particles away. If using water, a small amount of soap is also a good idea both to serve as a lubricant and to help keep the metal in suspension.

IMG_4476.jpg


The first 10 passes over 400 grit sandpaper showed that the bottom of the heatsink is actually far from flat

IMG_4477.jpg


About 100 more passes over 400 grit sandpaper didn't get me very far

IMG_4478.jpg


Neither did a few hundred more

IMG_4479.jpg


So, I did something that's a bit unconventional-I actually regressed to 320 grit sandpaper. The courser grit makes flattening out the surface a lot faster, at a cost of a lot more "cleanup" work later.

After getting the surface more-or-less clean with 320 grit, I went back to 400 to remove the marks left by the 320 grit(unfortunately I didn't take photos of the intermediates)

IMG_4480.jpg


As you can see, I didn't eliminate all of the machining marks, but did at least get the worst of them.

I then proceeded through a progression of finer grit sandpapers-600, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000, and 2500. I didn't take photos all along the way, but the general process is the same-basically you just sand until you can no longer see the lines left by the previous grade. One trick I learned a while ago is to turn the part being sanded 90º with each change in grade. This makes it easy to see which lines are from the grit you are currently using, and which are from the previous grit.

When I went to 600 grit, I switched over to using oil. It's messier, but I've always felt that it gives a better finish. Here's a photo of sanding in oil-the orange tint is from copper suspended in the oil.

IMG_4481.jpg


And, here it is after finishing the 2500 grit polish

IMG_4482.jpg


Finally, I gave it a good polish with Simichrome. This is probably unnecessary, but makes it look better :)

IMG_4483.jpg


I gave the whole heatsink a bath in hot, soapy water so I'm going to let it dry overnight before re-installing.

By the way, the screws are a standard 6-32 machine screw. While I was at the hardware store buying sandpaper, I also picked up some 6-32x1/2" screws to replace the idiotic pin-headed ones that Gigadesigns used to fit heatsink to the processor originally.

I don't know if this will actually make any difference, but it certainly can't hurt anything.
 
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MatthewLTL

macrumors 68000
Jan 22, 2015
1,684
18
Rochester, MN
I went "shopping" today in Surplus for fans, and picked up a whole range of sizes from 40mm to 120mm.

The big blower-type fan should be interesting-I'm thinking about sticking it in the ZIP bay, and it should draw a lot of air out of the case.

that blower type fan looks like its from a Dell Optiplex 260 or 270
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 3, 2014
8,317
6,373
Kentucky
1.6ghz at 1.5V, here I am! That's without running the leaf blower on the front, too, although I do still have the extra 80mm on top of the CPUs.

So far so good-I've actually had the system running stably for about 5 minutes now, which is much further than I've been able to get before at 1.6ghz.

After really seeing how poorly finished the factory heatsink was, I'm not surprised that this thing has always had heat issues.

The Peltier pumps may end up being a science project and not make it onto the CPU...
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 3, 2014
8,317
6,373
Kentucky
Geekbench and Xbench results at 1.6ghz. The Geebench score is higher than one Everymac has recorded for the dual 1.42 MDD!
 

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LightBulbFun

macrumors 68030
Nov 17, 2013
2,808
3,125
London UK
Oh very Nice! Good to see you got it going at 1.6Ghz :D I wonder if you can make it to 1.8Ghz or with the Peltier cooling maybe push it to 2Ghz? (that would be one beast of a Machine LOL) this makes me wonder if i could push my CPU upgrade to a stable 1.6Ghz...(it runs fine at 1.5Ghz) the Heat sink on my one is not as bad as your one was. Maybe if I strap an extra fan or 2 to mine LOL and maybe shove it in something better then the beat up Sawtooth I have. (any one want to give me a DA or QS? :p)
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 3, 2014
8,317
6,373
Kentucky
I actually briefly tried 1.8 this evening just to see if it would boot.

I couldn't get the computer to chime, which makes me think that I probably need to tinker with the voltage a little bit more(from my earlier experiments 1.5V was pushing it at 1.6, although it's certainly stable now).

I'm going to give the paste a day or two to cure(I'll probably stress test it overnight and then shut it down when I go to church in the morning to let things cool of), and then maybe try again with 1.8.

By the way, now that it seems to have "settled in", I can't believe how fast this thing feels. It's easily the fastest G4 I've ever used, and I would say that at least in things like web browsing it's every bit as fast if not faster than my single 1.8 G5. I have the Activity Monitor "bar graphs" in the dock, and tasks that would peg both bars on my(factory) dual 1ghz QS won't come close on this computer.
 
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keysersoze

macrumors 68000
Jan 6, 2004
1,596
11
NH
Nice lapping work there. It's clear the time put into it was well worth it. Nice job all around- :)
 

eyoungren

macrumors Penryn
Aug 31, 2011
28,794
26,884
Cool, glad it's working for you (again)!

I just didn't have the resources (or time), but I figured you could make it work and I'm happy to see progress.
 

ctmpkmlec4

macrumors 6502
Jul 4, 2014
373
40
Lyons, KS
I must ask... Do you have the dual 1.0 CPU and heatsink that came out of this tower? My Quicksilver was originally a 933, but I scored a Powerlogix single CPU upgrade for cheap that's clocked at 1.2 GHz. Of these two processors (dual 1.0 and Powerlogix), which do you think performs better?

Nice job getting that beast to run stable @ 1.6 GHz.
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 3, 2014
8,317
6,373
Kentucky
I must ask... Do you have the dual 1.0 CPU and heatsink that came out of this tower? My Quicksilver was originally a 933, but I scored a Powerlogix single CPU upgrade for cheap that's clocked at 1.2 GHz. Of these two processors (dual 1.0 and Powerlogix), which do you think performs better?

Nice job getting that beast to run stable @ 1.6 GHz.

This particular computer started life as a single 800mhz. I upgraded the processor and heatsink to the dual 1.0 myself. Since this computer originally lacked L3 cache, the L3 cache on my Dual 1.0 never worked, which actually is a surprising hindrance to performance.

About a month back, I bought a real, honest to goodness dual 1ghz Quicksilver from a member here. The real dual 1ghz is faster than the dual 1ghz in this system(thanks to the L3 cache), so it's now my main G4 and the computer in this thread has been demoted to "experimental" status.

I can't speak to the Powerlogix 1.2 as I've never used one, but I do have a 1.2ghz iBook as well as a single 1.25ghz MDD. The MDD is probably the fairest comparison, since it has 2mb of L3 cache like the dual 1ghz Quicksilver(although also has a faster system bus).

In my experience-under OS X-the dual 1ghz is a fair bit faster than the single 1.25. OS X-or at least 10.4 and 10.5-are good about spreading tasks over both cores so that you get the full benefit.

OS 9 is a different story. In general, you don't benefit from dual processors unless running a program written to take advantage of them. Photoshop 7 is probably the most prominent and best example I can think of.

So, as for which is better, I'd say that comes down to whether you're going to be running OS X or OS 9.
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 3, 2014
8,317
6,373
Kentucky
1.65V was enough to get me to 1.73ghz for a few minutes, although the computer froze(completely) while I was running Geekbench. It would get hung at the blue screen before log in at lower voltages, and I don't have diagrams for anything higher than 1.65. It would at least chime at 1.8ghz/1.65V, but never even get to a grey screen.

In any case, here it is for proof that it happened(along with Xbench), although I'm now back at a comfortable 1.6ghz/1.5V.

Perhaps I should start investigating some of those new miracle thermal pastes. I've always been happy with AS5, but it seems as though I'm on the threshold of of the thermal limits. Maybe a few more days of curing the AS5 will help some.

By the way, I also hooked up the blower at 7V, although it barely moves any air. I'm thinking a pair of diodes in series with it at 12V to drop it to about 10.5V might be the ticket. The closing Radio Shacks in the area have made that stuff really cheap :)

I shouldn't be complaining about 1.6ghz, but I feel like 1.8 now is an elusive goal that's at least within reach.
 

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LightBulbFun

macrumors 68030
Nov 17, 2013
2,808
3,125
London UK
Very nice :cool: 1.73Ghz on 1.25Ghz Chips is a very nice over clock.

if ur CPU upgrade uses the voltage regulator chip as my CPU upgrade then maybe you can use the chart here: http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/G4CARDS/GigaDesigns_1.4GHz_review/index6.html

To get voltages above 1.65V if its not the same voltage regulator then you can Google the data sheet for the voltage regulator on your cpu upgrade to find the right settings for higher voltages.
 
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