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Apple Outlines New Ban on Bonded Labor at Supplier Factories in 2015 Progress Report

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lacek

macrumors member
Oct 14, 2014
57
7
JoEw said:
As all companies should be doing, bravo Apple. Obviously there is still much to be done, but I'm glad they are stepping up.
Click to expand...

I have never heard of a single case when spamming people with money actually led to development. Apple is imposing western standard on developing markets. Adopting foreign standards typically creates unemployment and poverty.

I wonder how many million Americans would die if someone forbid underage people to work 1920s. This sort of regulations are inherently racist, as typically it deprives poor/unskilled/socially secluded people of last few options to achieve income.

Telling poor people how and when they should work, living in a wealthy country yourself is simply very naive.

Still the Apple program is not that far going as many people here would like it to be.
 
JoEw

JoEw

macrumors 68000
Nov 29, 2009
1,583
1,291
lacek said:
I have never heard of a single case when spamming people with money actually led to development. Apple is imposing western standard on developing markets. Adopting foreign standards typically creates unemployment and poverty.

I wonder how many million Americans would die if someone forbid underage people to work 1920s. This sort of regulations are inherently racist, as typically it deprives poor/unskilled/socially secluded people of last few options to achieve income.

Telling poor people how and when they should work, living in a wealthy country yourself is simply very naive.

Still the Apple program is not that far going as many people here would like it to be.
Click to expand...

These are pretty low standards max 70-80 hour workweek, 1 day off for 6 days of work, they are still paid low compared to the West.. You really don't think we should avoid conflict materials? Look up what kind of conditions those are, I wouldn't want any human to go through that.

I agree China is not yet at the level of the West in economic maturity, but soon there will be a Chinese company much like Heny Ford who doubled the daily pay of their workers, so they could afford to buy the cars they made.
 
viorelgn

viorelgn

macrumors 6502
Sep 16, 2013
303
10
Romania
Could adopt a corporate structure that hired those employees directly. There was a term for that floating around, I think “Industrial Revolution”. Probably the most direct way to ensure ethical treatment of those at the bottom of Apples cash machine.
 
L

lacek

macrumors member
Oct 14, 2014
57
7
JoEw said:
These are pretty low standards max 70-80 hour workweek, 1 day off for 6 days of work, they are still paid low compared to the West.. You really don't think we should avoid conflict materials? Look up what kind of conditions those are, I wouldn't want any human to go through that.
Click to expand...

Dude in my country, monthly wage was $10 in 1980's (for 40 hour workweek). Still no one has died of starvation, you had poor quality Soviet TV, not American one etc. Comparing incomes is a poor idea as purchasing power is so different.

I am not critcizing Apple here, I am criticizing what can be read on previous 4 pages. Whether "avoiding conflict materials" is a good idea or not, I have no opinion. For sure buying them from warlords is a bad idea. And if you can't be sure you might try to avoid them altogether.

JoEw said:
I agree China is not yet at the level of the West in economic maturity, but soon there will be a Chinese company much like Heny Ford who doubled the daily pay of their workers, so they could afford to buy the cars they made.
Click to expand...

But ability of Ford workers to buy cars they manufactured was not a key to success of american economy. Besides that is a little bit demagogic - I am sure Lockheed Martin's employees will never afford a F-22 Raptor, and McDonalds employees can but numerous BigMacs each day. So why single out the car?

Ford adopted serial production that lowered the price of a car. That is why people could afford it (and not only those who worked for the company).

And it was technological development which was responsible for rapid improvement of living conditions between 1850's and 1930's.
* fertilizer (cheap food)
* smelting, serial production etc (industrial products)

Soon serial production will be adopted to house building (as Chinese start to print housing). I expect:
- land price will rise like hell in 20 years or so
- housing prices will drop

But this will happen in China. In US unions will "protect the workers" and people will still take life-long loans just to buy a house.
 
JoEw

JoEw

macrumors 68000
Nov 29, 2009
1,583
1,291
lacek said:
Dude in my country, monthly wage was $10 in 1980's (for 40 hour workweek). Still no one has died of starvation, you had poor quality Soviet TV, not American one etc. Comparing incomes is a poor idea as purchasing power is so different.

I am not critcizing Apple here, I am criticizing what can be read on previous 4 pages. Whether "avoiding conflict materials" is a good idea or not, I have no opinion. For sure buying them from warlords is a bad idea. And if you can't be sure you might try to avoid them altogether.



But ability of Ford workers to buy cars they manufactured was not a key to success of american economy. Besides that is a little bit demagogic - I am sure Lockheed Martin's employees will never afford a F-22 Raptor, and McDonalds employees can but numerous BigMacs each day. So why single out the car?

Ford adopted serial production that lowered the price of a car. That is why people could afford it (and not only those who worked for the company).

And it was technological development which was responsible for rapid improvement of living conditions between 1850's and 1930's.
* fertilizer (cheap food)
* smelting, serial production etc (industrial products)

Soon serial production will be adopted to house building (as Chinese start to print housing). I expect:
- land price will rise like hell in 20 years or so
- housing prices will drop

But this will happen in China. In US unions will "protect the workers" and people will still take life-long loans just to buy a house.
Click to expand...

It is well known Ford doubled the daily pay of all his workers, to allow for all his employees to also buy the car they made. Yes Ford made the car cheap thanks to assembly line but also he set a high standard of wage and the 40 hour work week, call it whatever you want but this was a company setting working standards higher for employees without being forced by unions.

Even if you measure purchasing power instead of dollars, these workers make much less than the West. Whats wrong with wanting people to have a higher standard of living who put my phone together?

My point is these "standards" are not anywhere near the West's.
 
L

lacek

macrumors member
Oct 14, 2014
57
7
JoEw said:
It is well known Ford doubled the daily pay of all his workers, to allow for all his employees to also buy the car they made. Yes Ford made the car cheap thanks to assembly line but also he set a high standard of wage and the 40 hour work week, call it whatever you want but this was a company setting working standards higher for employees without being forced by unions.
Click to expand...
Yes, but Ford did not hire all american worker, just a small percentage (definitely below 1%). Therefore claim that rising wages leads to development is a bad argument. At least in case of Ford.

JoEw said:
Even if you measure purchasing power instead of dollars, these workers make much less than the West. Whats wrong with wanting people to have a higher standard of living who put my phone together?
Click to expand...
There is nothing wrong with "wanting". But I am sure this will also rise the price of the product and decrease sales (and orders from China). Curiously a new iPhone 6 costs more than average wage netto in my country, and almost 3 minimum monthly wages. I don't see anyone buying it if it gets even more expensive.


JoEw said:
My point is these "standards" are not anywhere near the West's.
Click to expand...

You can't mandate high standards in undeveloped markets. That is you may, but then there is no point for Apple to make these things in China, and ultimately those poor people you care so much about will be unemployed.
 
JoEw

JoEw

macrumors 68000
Nov 29, 2009
1,583
1,291
lacek said:
Yes, but Ford did not hire all american worker, just a small percentage (definitely below 1%). Therefore claim that rising wages leads to development is a bad argument. At least in case of Ford.


There is nothing wrong with "wanting". But I am sure this will also rise the price of the product and decrease sales (and orders from China). Curiously a new iPhone 6 costs more than average wage netto in my country, and almost 3 minimum monthly wages. I don't see anyone buying it if it gets even more expensive.




You can't mandate high standards in undeveloped markets. That is you may, but then there is no point for Apple to make these things in China, and ultimately those poor people you care so much about will be unemployed.
Click to expand...

What indicator is that China is under developed? And there are many logistical reasons got producing an iPhone in China besides cheap labor, there is also excess labor, many of the parts of an iPhone are located in Asia and as Apple becomes more global It makes sense to produce your products in the worlds largest country.
The margin Apple enjoys with the iPhone is insane, they grabbed 90%+ of smartphone profit last year, they are not scrapping 1-2% margin like other manufacturers are.

I could easily see a day in the not distant future when Apples largest seller is China, there a huge movement to middle class and still lots of population to go.
 
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