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AlecZ

macrumors 65816
Sep 11, 2014
1,173
123
Berkeley, CA
Well, maybe, just maybe, rural America can now have access to broadband since it is now a utility. I have family in the midwest that have to use either satellite or tether to their smart phones. Both solutions have significant limitations compared to DSL or cable (and the latter can be pretty bad).

Oh man, I've spent workdays on the roof of a house in the desert trying to set up a 4G antenna that can connect to a 4G hotspot thingy that gives wifi that is bridged to ethernet then shot out with a more powerful wifi station on a TV antenna so the surrounding area can have wifi. It worked OK (~1mb/s) until a windstorm snapped the broomstick the antennas were screwed onto and threw everything off the roof. Repairs and reinforcements with cinderblocks have since been made.

Still better than satellite. I feel bad for people who have to live with that.

----------

DSL is not really high speed.

You can get around 5mbps download on it. Not bad. It's more than enough to stream HD video from Netflix, Amazon, or iTunes.
 
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poe diddley

macrumors regular
Jun 5, 2005
229
98
greensboro nc
One side fears government control and abusing this.

Other side fears businesses having unchecked greed.

Truth? Somewhere in the middle....... Businesses unchecked will screw people over. Especially when ISP's closely mirror each others practices( same goes for the wireless carriers). So while there is competition, the grass is not necessary greener on the other side. But overregulation can screw people over too.

While the current FCC states all this will do in Title II is keep everything the same. No charging Netflix( who would pass the cost onto consumers) for fast lanes, etc which is a good thing for consumers. Though if things change and apply the rest of the Title II to the internet, then the government can screw us over.

This whole debate is based on the fear of what the government will do in the future due to this or I think a naive belief that allowing a company to screw over consumers, the free market will take care of that bad company. But like I said, ISP companies closely mirror each other. So the free market can't take care of anything. That is where regulation comes into play.

It is all about balance. Which no one seems to want to find. Some think any regulation is harmful while others want to over regulate.

Thank you
 

vmistery

macrumors 6502a
Apr 6, 2010
942
688
UK
Sounds like what you need over there is more competition rather than rules around the types of traffic and speeds? If ISP 1 said I'm going to throttle your Netflix and ISP 2 said I won't then I could just choose ISP 2? Over here in the UK we have a slight advantage as we already forced the incumbent and truly useless BT to allow kit to be installed in their Cabinet. It has massively improved choice and also our broadband is cheap as chips (except in BT only areas which are just the small villages). I guess the only problem with that is cabling involved in such a huge country compared with our little pebble.
 
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Eraserhead

macrumors G4
Nov 3, 2005
10,434
12,250
UK
Sounds like what you need over there is more competition rather than rules around the types of traffic and speeds? If ISP 1 said I'm going to throttle your Netflix and ISP 2 said I won't then I could just choose ISP 2? Over here in the UK we have a slight advantage as we already forced the incumbent and truly useless BT to allow kit to be installed in their Cabinet. It has massively improved choice and also our broadband is cheap as chips (except in BT only areas which are just the small villages). I guess the only problem with that is cabling involved in such a huge country compared with our little pebble.

That would be an issue if most Americans lived in rural areas. But most Americans live in urban areas so the costs shouldn't be that different.
 

BigHonkingDeal

macrumors 6502a
Feb 8, 2009
832
1,027
Fort Pierce
newsflash, barack obama is the worst president in u.s. History, has singlehandedly done more damage than good, and the country may take anywhere from 10-25 years to recover from his 8 years of corruption, if it can at all. At a point in history when so many things in this world are at crucial turning points, we have possibly gone into the dark ages of american communism.


really?
 

xdxdaustin

macrumors regular
Sep 28, 2010
191
41
Connecticut, United States
If only I lived in some utopian dreamworld and believed that. This ruling is bad for the consumer. As are so many 'regulations'. Do some homework and find out the reality of it.

Funny you should mention doing homework on regulations. Maybe you should do some. Ever since the Reagan era, there has been some overarching misconception that all regulation is evil and should be erased because it hampers capitalism and competition, however, that is categorically false and has been proven so time and time again by history. Look back to the eras of unregulated capitalism; the roaring 20's. With the giant high that came with the pure brand of capitalism came the massive hangover that was the great depression. Another example would be the 2000's up until the great recession; up until that point, the economic thinking had been to simply deregulate almost everything. Capitalism is the most darwinian of all the economic systems, hence why it can provide us with the best products, however, in a system where it is "survival of the fittest", all other competitors are killed off. This has also been the case with ISPs; when the industry was deregulated, we went from having countless different ISPs falling out of our cereal boxes (ala AOL) to the behemoth known as Comcast and its goonies diving and conquering up territory. Had regulation not been in place in the mobile telecom industry, we would likely be facing a duopoly today and we wouldn't have any of the industry benefits that we are seeing from a resurgent T-Mobile. Of course, it is possible to have too much regulation, something which could make an industry unprofitable, but this is very much so not one of those times. Of anything, more regulation is still necessary to increase competition in the market. This can be seen by the fact in the few areas where actual competition exists, such as areas with Google Fiber, other ISPs have rushed in with vastly reduced prices and greatly improved speeds (such as 70$ for gbp/s while in areas with no competition are stuck paying 50$ for only 20 mbp/s). The only reason why Google is able to roll out a network in some areas is due to their vast resources, however, many more ISPs would be available if ISPs were required to lease out their lines to other companies.
 

Robert.Walter

macrumors 68040
Jul 10, 2012
3,093
4,364
FDR tried to regulate the newspapers in a similar manner during his New Deal era claiming that newspapers delivered to homes and sold on the the streets was as much as a utility as the water or power utilities. He even tried to regulate the grade of newsprint paper that could be used by the printing presses.

The big newspapers sued and won at SCOTUS on First Amendment grounds stating that they distribute information and thus the cannot be regulated like a utility.

The same will happen here. The Internet is effectively the replacement for the newspapers. As the Clinton Era regulations were shot down but SCOTUS a generation ago, so will this go down.

Question is which gets nullified first? ACA or this?

Another reason content needs to be separated from distribution. As long as a company with integrated content and distribution is allowed to provide both, it will have a conflict of interest that can only be controlled by regulation or separation.

The only reason paid fast lanes existed was so that those controlling the distribution pipes could raise the costs of the streaming providers in order to protect their TV- and Movie-package cash cows.



----------

Funny you should mention doing homework on regulations. Maybe you should do some. Ever since the Reagan era, there has been some overarching misconception that all regulation is evil and should be erased because it hampers capitalism and competition, however, that is categorically false and has been proven so time and time again by history. Look back to the eras of unregulated capitalism; the roaring 20's. With the giant high that came with the pure brand of capitalism came the massive hangover that was the great depression. Another example would be the 2000's up until the great recession; up until that point, the economic thinking had been to simply deregulate almost everything. Capitalism is the most darwinian of all the economic systems, hence why it can provide us with the best products, however, in a system where it is "survival of the fittest", all other competitors are killed off. This has also been the case with ISPs; when the industry was deregulated, we went from having countless different ISPs falling out of our cereal boxes (ala AOL) to the behemoth known as Comcast and its goonies diving and conquering up territory. Had regulation not been in place in the mobile telecom industry, we would likely be facing a duopoly today and we wouldn't have any of the industry benefits that we are seeing from a resurgent T-Mobile. Of course, it is possible to have too much regulation, something which could make an industry unprofitable, but this is very much so not one of those times. Of anything, more regulation is still necessary to increase competition in the market. This can be seen by the fact in the few areas where actual competition exists, such as areas with Google Fiber, other ISPs have rushed in with vastly reduced prices and greatly improved speeds (such as 70$ for gbp/s while in areas with no competition are stuck paying 50$ for only 20 mbp/s). The only reason why Google is able to roll out a network in some areas is due to their vast resources, however, many more ISPs would be available if ISPs were required to lease out their lines to other companies.

Forcing unbundling and allowing competitors to lease all but the last mile at regulated wholesale rates is one place where the FCC has fallen short in its new initiative. The justice department has fallen short by not pursuing a separation of content from distribution on anti-competitive grounds.
 

AdonisSMU

macrumors 604
Oct 23, 2010
7,298
3,047
Of course. The monopolies don't like being told to play fair. They want to extract extra rent.



It means that Comcast can't legally throttle Netflix just to extract more money from Netflix and You. It means that TWC can't favor its own content over anybody elses. Here is an article from last year about Verizon:

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/186576-verizon-caught-throttling-netflix-traffic-even-after-its-pays-for-more-bandwidth



Are they the only game in town?



Sad but true.



How does it hurt consumers?





How exactly is it bad for the consumer?



I will agree that if a free and fair market exists, regulations should not be needed. But, with AT&T, Verizon, and Comcast all throwing their weight around, the companies left it such that regulation was necessary.
Some people think any and all government regulation is bad. You are never going to convince those people of anything else.
 

Robert.Walter

macrumors 68040
Jul 10, 2012
3,093
4,364
Some people think any and all government regulation is bad. You are never going to convince those people of anything else.

Problem is those people display a failure to think critically, taking into account historical patterns of misbehavior of non-regulated corporate entities.
 

AdonisSMU

macrumors 604
Oct 23, 2010
7,298
3,047
This is just another example of a totally corrupt Washington and a President who is a compulsive liar. What they do now is making laws that do the opposite of what they're called - like The Patriot Act. When a new law is called something like "Net Neutrality", it will do the oppsite - hinder free speach and independent media, and create more censorship. What's possibly even worse Congress say now, they don't read the new laws they pass. Obama care totaled with 10 535 pages (and 11 588 500 words!). Creating ridicoulsly long bills has become a new way for special interests and big business to basically create the legislature, instead of the politicians. Great way to pass bad legislature. Washington is becoming more and more corrupt every year, and the mainstream media plays along. Great, just great...

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/penny-starr/11588500-words-obamacare-regs-30x-long-law
Im going to bite my tongue... as I don't even know where to begin with this. You do know the patriot act was created under Bush and the current president asked congress to change it so that it does to what is intended for it. However congress reauthorized it with a veto proof majority.

Secondly, you're just making things up as you go along. Yes big business and special interests do have the ear of congress. However that is not always bad in and of itself. Many of them are subject matter experts.

Thirdly, you should actually read the bills so you can see if they are too long or not. You might read it and realize that the xyz bill needs to be as long as it is because of its complexities etc...shorter and clearer can be better. However, when you are trying not to have loop holes in legislation that people spend millions on fighting in court maybe not. It sounds like you've decided to stop thinking and start spouting empty platitudes about the size of a bill being bad without having read or considered why the bill is so long.
 
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amirite

macrumors 6502a
Aug 17, 2009
880
691
Sounds like what you need over there is more competition rather than rules around the types of traffic and speeds? If ISP 1 said I'm going to throttle your Netflix and ISP 2 said I won't then I could just choose ISP 2? Over here in the UK we have a slight advantage as we already forced the incumbent and truly useless BT to allow kit to be installed in their Cabinet. It has massively improved choice and also our broadband is cheap as chips (except in BT only areas which are just the small villages). I guess the only problem with that is cabling involved in such a huge country compared with our little pebble.
And isn't it scary government regulation forcing BT to allow other companies to use its lines?
 

Mac32

Suspended
Nov 20, 2010
1,263
454
Im going to bite my tongue... as I don't even know where to begin with this. You do know the patriot act was created under Bush and the current president asked congress to change it so that it does to what is intended for it. However congress reauthorized it with a veto proof majority.

Secondly, you're just making things up as you go along. Yes big business and special interests do have the ear of congress. However that is not always bad in and of itself. Many of them are subject matter experts.

Thirdly, you should actually read the bills so you can see if they are too long or not. You might read it and realize that the xyz bill needs to be as long as it is because of its complexities etc...shorter and clearer can be better. However, when you are trying not to have loop holes in legislation that people spend millions on fighting in court maybe not. It sounds like you've decided to stop thinking and start spouting empty platitudes about the size of a bill being bad without having read or considered why the bill is so long.

Yeah, it was incoherent, I changed it. Didn't have my coffee yet it seems... :eek:
 

Eraserhead

macrumors G4
Nov 3, 2005
10,434
12,250
UK
And isn't it scary government regulation forcing BT to allow other companies to use its lines?

Yes.

----------

What is really in this new bill? What they do in recent years is making laws that do the opposite of what they're called - like The Patriot Act. When a new bill is called something like "Net Neutrality", then included in the bill might be very contradictory goals - ie. hinder free speech, create more censorship and stronger government supervision. I've seen many troubling reports to this effect. Obama is very good at BSing. Congress doesn't even read many of the new bills they pass. (Remember Nancy Pelosi's statement "We have to pass the bill to find out what's in it.") Obamacare totaled 10 535 pages (and 11 588 500 words), this was over 1.5 years ago btw. Creating very long bills has become a way for special interests and big business to write the legislature, instead of the politicians. Not a positive direction, if you like having a properly working democracy.

Why don't you go and read it? And obamacare for that matter?
 

2010mini

macrumors 601
Jun 19, 2013
4,698
4,806
One example from Forbes:

President Barack Obama took the time this week to pressure the Federal Communication Commission (a technically independent government agency) to issue a set of net neutrality rules that he favors. Many others with a vested interest in equal internet access for all are also joining in the game of lobbying the FCC for their preferred solution. However, all the noise and poor analogies being used cannot make the proposed net neutrality rules a good idea. Rather, it is just another attempt at government control and enforced equality in a realm where that makes little sense.

Net neutrality seems like a simple concept: the company that links your computer/tablet/smartphone to the internet should not be able to discriminate among users and providers in the level of connectivity service provided. That is, we should all be able to send and receive the same number of bits of data per second.

This is a bad idea for the same reason that only having vanilla ice cream for sale is a bad idea: some people want, and are willing to pay for, something different. Forcing a one-size-fits-all solution on the Internet stifles innovation by blocking some companies from turning new ideas or business models into successful products.

President Obama was quoted in his statement as saying that “We cannot allow Internet service providers (ISPs) to restrict the best access or to pick winners and losers in the online marketplace for services and ideas.” Yet, oddly enough, President Obama is happy to pick winners and losers in the marketplace for energy services and ideas where he is working hard to make offshore drilling, coal, and shale oil losers while attempting to turn solar, wind, and other renewables into winners. He has similarly interfered in the auto market, both by spending billions to avoid Chrysler and GM from becoming losers and by forcing auto manufacturers to meet gas mileage standards which eliminate many possible car choices from the marketplace.

The last thing we should want is President Obama or a government agency picking winners and losers on the Internet. And enforcing net neutrality is picking winners and losers even if it looks like it is just “leveling the playing field.” He may think it is not, but it completely blocks certain business models and stops any possible innovation that might emerge if given the option of seeking differential access to bandwidth.

The key point that President Obama has missed along with all the rabid supporters of net neutrality is that ISPs and the companies that control the Internet backbone infrastructure that knits everything together do not have the power to pick winners and losers either. Consumers decide what products and services are successful because we adopt them. If an ISP blocks Netflix NFLX +0.97% because of the bandwidth it requires, consumers who want Netflix will take their business elsewhere. If enough people do so, the ISP will have to change policies or go out of business.

As the former chief economist for the FCC, Thomas Hazlett, pointed out this week in Time, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter TWTR +1.77%, LinkedIn LNKD +0.65% (and many, many more success stories of innovation) all emerged without the benefit of net neutrality. In the time when the government might have been ensuring a level playing field for the Internet pipe into our homes, smartphones and mobile devices completely changed how most people connect to and use the Internet.

The problem with government regulation of the Internet is that by the time the government studies how it works and what is needed, technology has moved on. Who believes that the government can write a regulation that will still fit the bill in three years when none of us know what the dominant formats, companies, and technology will be that far in advance? Given that the FCC has been proposing net neutrality rules for a decade with little success, why would we expect a change anytime soon?

Also, we need to stop the poor analogies about net neutrality. Neil Irwin, in The New York Times, says it is like deciding whether Internet connections should be like electricity or cable television. His idea is that we all get the same electric service (net neutrality), but can pay for different levels of cable tv. Yet, in many places people pay for different electric service. In California (and other places), customers can get a lower rate if they agree to let the electric utility turn off their air conditioner during peak usage hours.

"...If an ISP blocks netflix... Consumers will take their business elsewhere...."

Really? Netflix requires a certain level of broadband access. A great deal of US customers do not have a choice.

Cable companies have regularly lobbied hard to BLOCK competing broadband ISPs in their territories. This ruling is a result of their own practices. Their customers have been complaining for years about it.

Do you think if there was real competition in the broadband ISP market the Gov't would even have to step in?
 

neuropsychguy

macrumors 68020
Sep 29, 2008
2,384
5,683
I didn't say the government should control it. I said the internet should remain the way it was. What is wrong with people these days reading things differently and making outlandish comments to post their 2 cents.

Sorry, I was replying to your comment but not responding directly to you. I know that sounds weird but I've read/heard a number of comments where people argued for this regulation as a way to maintain Internet status quo. They argued that adding FCC regulations would ensure that the Internet remains as it has been.
 

samiwas

macrumors 68000
Aug 26, 2006
1,598
3,579
Atlanta, GA
You know, I was thinking about something I asked earlier:

How would you like it if Apple decided to code restrictions into the iPhone software that only allowed you to call certain approved businesses, or visit certain approved websites?

Then I thought..."wait a minute...in this forum of Apple apologists and rabid supporters, they would actually cheer this move and claim it was the best for users...because Apple did it".

Now it makes sense why they can't begin to understand net neutrality and how it is beneficial regulation.

----------

The Internet should remain as is and adding government regulation keeps it that way? When did adding regulation ever keep the status quo?

Uhhh, newsflash buddy....the internet was not going to remain "the way it is" with companies gearing up to offer priority access to companies who could pay more. That is exactly the opposite of "the way it is". And here are people like you, fighting against the regulation that limits the ability of a provider to change "the way it is".

Bubba: "We love the internet!"
ISP: "We are going to change things so that companies we like or who pay us mountains of cash will get to you, but others will not."
Bubba: "This is an outrage!"
Goverment: "We have come up with rules which will not allow ISPs to change the traffic patterns and charge for priority access."
Bubba: "No! Leave them alone! You're hurting the internet!"

That's pretty much the gist of the conversation here.
 

neuropsychguy

macrumors 68020
Sep 29, 2008
2,384
5,683
Uhhh, newsflash buddy....the internet was not going to remain "the way it is" with companies gearing up to offer priority access to companies who could pay more. That is exactly the opposite of "the way it is". And here are people like you, fighting against the regulation that limits the ability of a provider to change "the way it is".

I'm not fighting against internet regulation. I think it's probably necessary, I just don't know if this FCC proposal is the way to do it (since I haven't read the proposal to see what it actually does; I like to make up my own mind about things). For the moment I remain "wait and see".
 

itr81

macrumors regular
Jul 12, 2010
230
52
Not going to happen. The Court that ruled the FCC lacked authority under the previous classification already acknowledged in their ruling that the FCC does have the power to reclassify under Title II and thus enforce net neutrality rules.

How is it an example of federal overreach? The Internet is global. It significantly affects interstate commerce. The Federal Government is the only entity in the U.S. that can effectively protect it.



It didn't take long to mention the 'C' word. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Someone's got their rose tinted glasses on. I do hope you understand that this is a privacy move. It has nothing to really do with getting fast lane Internet out. If you like China's policies on Internet privacy welcome to the new America in 10 years if this passes. Also what keeps this from spreading since companies like AT&T have broadband all over the world. Verizon is still connected to Vodophone. Now realize this affects everyone from t-Mobile to Hugh's net to your local mom and pop ISPs. Not only will this lead to privacy issue but it will mean fcc fees, federal tax and state tax on your new Internet connection. On the currently federally regulated plain Jane nothing on it telephone lines the fees and taxes are 70-75% of the total amount on the bill. Would you be ok with a 20-40 dollars increase in your Internet bill? I bet most wouldn't.
 

ctdonath

macrumors 68000
Mar 11, 2009
1,592
629
So where's the ACTUAL TEXT OF THE NEW RULES? They can't vote on rules that don't exist, and preparing to publish them in anticipation of acceptance is not hard, with final release taking seconds.

That an unelected group votes on a secret set of rules to impose on the internet, then fails to publish those rules immediately on the internet, does not bode well.

----------

Now it makes sense why they can't begin to understand net neutrality and how it is beneficial regulation.

There's over 300 pages of rules.
You haven't read a single one of them.
YOU can't understand how beneficial, or not, it is because YOU HAVEN'T READ IT.
AFAIK, the text is still secret. Can't find it anywhere.
You've defined "net neutrality" as you like, and berate anyone whose definition thereof differs negatively from yours.
Except you, like the rest of us, really have no idea what's in those >300 pages.

Note that the head of the FCC was adamantly opposed to these rules - and HE KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE.
 

tbrinkma

macrumors 68000
Apr 24, 2006
1,651
93
One example from Forbes:

President Barack Obama took the time this week to pressure the Federal Communication Commission (a technically independent government agency) to issue a set of net neutrality rules that he favors. Many others with a vested interest in equal internet access for all are also joining in the game of lobbying the FCC for their preferred solution. However, all the noise and poor analogies being used cannot make the proposed net neutrality rules a good idea. Rather, it is just another attempt at government control and enforced equality in a realm where that makes little sense.

Net neutrality seems like a simple concept: the company that links your computer/tablet/smartphone to the internet should not be able to discriminate among users and providers in the level of connectivity service provided. That is, we should all be able to send and receive the same number of bits of data per second.

And that, right there, is where the argument being presented moves away from the facts and into fiction.

Net Neutrality says, simply, this:
Bits transmitted from point A to point B shall not be interfered with by party C.
If A pays for an internet connection (speed X), and B pays for an internet connection (speed Y), B should not have to pay extra to C for A to access services offered by B in a timely* manner.
* as defined by the pair of network connections paid for by A and B.

It says absolutely *nothing* about everyone having identical bandwidth. Just that, if A pays for a 10Mbps connection, and B pays for a 1Gbps connection, neither A nor B should have to pay C extra money for B to be able to stream data at 2Mbps to A.
 
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