CINEBENCH! AMD Radeon R9 M370X

leman · May 24, 2015

Maxx Power said:
You'll see that the recent Kepler/Maxwell parts are single precision optimized which makes them more energy efficient (similar to past AMDs) but poorer at higher precision compute, in general

This is certainly true, and I have mentioned the weak DP performance of Nvidia GPUs before, but does it matter? What kind of OpenCL workflows are important to a con(pro)sumer? We are mostly looking at image and sound processing. None of these need double precision, even if you are doing HDR. What else? Cryptography? Here you need integer and bitwise operations.

From the top of my mind, only scientific stuff would need double precision. And you are not going to run that on a laptop. From general publics perspective, double precision is a neat feature that nobody actually needs.

magbarn · May 24, 2015

BuCkDoG said:
Hello guys! So I wanted to throw out a general question and see what everyone's personal opinion is on this and I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking this as well. Basically, is t worth upgrading to this newer updated model or is it best to wait for the next refresh? For reference, I am on an Early 2013 rMBP with the 2.7 quad core i7 16 GB ram, 512 SATA SSD and the GT650M card. I wanted to see some real world benchmarking and it looks like MacDevMike has shared some good information on this but I'm still curious if it's worth selling mine and upgrading now or waiting another year for skylake/nvidia refresh. As for gaming is concerned, I only play WoW. Currently I play at Retina Res on low settings and get 20-30 FPS in intense areas and 50-60 in others but is it worth basically upgrading to this Newer machine. Thanks!

I'm using the 1st gen rMBP and after finding out Apple is using this lackluster chip, I'm going to wait. To add insult to injury they're also using the same darn cpu for the last 2 years! (I know it's Intel's fault for this crap)
Someone here mentioned the 2015 rMBP 15 refresh is the iPad 3 all over again which isn't that far off the mark.

This 'refresh' has all the markings of a money saving move as most likely Apple didn't want to renew Nvidia's contract on their mobile GPU's. Either that or AMD let them see a few 14nm prototypes that they were impressed with.

If you follow used macbook pricing trends the highest amount of depreciation -like cars- is in the first 2 years or so. Our Ivy Bridge rMBP's are currently going for around $1200 or so and will probably won't be going to $600 anytime soon. (This is remarkable compared to PC laptops which would be down to 25% or so of original value) OTOH, the next gen skylake rMBP with presumably either a maxwell gpu or a 14nm AMD chip (finally a true upgrade after 3 years of 28nm STAGNATION) will cause your brand new $2500 to lose quite a bit of value off the bat.

BuCkDoG · May 24, 2015

magbarn said:
I'm using the 1st gen rMBP and after finding out Apple is using this lackluster chip, I'm going to wait. To add insult to injury they're also using the same darn cpu for the last 2 years! (I know it's Intel's fault for this crap)
Someone here mentioned the 2015 rMBP 15 refresh is the iPad 3 all over again which isn't that far off the mark.

This 'refresh' has all the markings of a money saving move as most likely Apple didn't want to renew Nvidia's contract on their mobile GPU's. Either that or AMD let them see a few 14nm prototypes that they were impressed with.

If you follow used macbook pricing trends the highest amount of depreciation -like cars- is in the first 2 years or so. Our Ivy Bridge rMBP's are currently going for around $1200 or so and will probably won't be going to $600 anytime soon. (This is remarkable compared to PC laptops which would be down to 25% or so of original value) OTOH, the next gen skylake rMBP with presumably either a maxwell gpu or a 14nm AMD chip (finally a true upgrade after 3 years of 28nm STAGNATION) will cause your brand new $2500 to lose quite a bit of value off the bat.

I must say that I completely agree with you. I am finding out that eBay sold listings have my machine at 1700 which isn't that bad at all considering I paid 2200 when it retailed for 2799 but I do agree with the CPU and GPU issue in this round of refresh. It looks like I will be simply holding out for the Skylake upgrade next year, sigh.

dusk007 · May 24, 2015

BuCkDoG said:
Hello guys! So I wanted to throw out a general question and see what everyone's personal opinion is on this and I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking this as well. Basically, is t worth upgrading to this newer updated model or is it best to wait for the next refresh? For reference, I am on an Early 2013 rMBP with the 2.7 quad core i7 16 GB ram, 512 SATA SSD and the GT650M card. I wanted to see some real world benchmarking and it looks like MacDevMike has shared some good information on this but I'm still curious if it's worth selling mine and upgrading now or waiting another year for skylake/nvidia refresh. As for gaming is concerned, I only play WoW. Currently I play at Retina Res on low settings and get 20-30 FPS in intense areas and 50-60 in others but is it worth basically upgrading to this Newer machine. Thanks!

There is little reason to upgrade. The CPU won't be noticeably faster and the GPU not enough to be worth it. Wait for whatever comes next or buy elsewhere.

BuCkDoG · May 24, 2015

dusk007 said:
There is little reason to upgrade. The CPU won't be noticeably faster and the GPU not enough to be worth it. Wait for whatever comes next or buy elsewhere.

Seems like thats the general consensus this time around. Looks like I will be holding out for Skylake refresh. Thanks dusk!

ApoorvPrem · May 24, 2015

https://compubench.com/compare.jsp?...9+M370X&D2=NVIDIA+GeForce+GT+750M+Mac+Edition

If we can't call this improvement I don't know what can. Lets stick to the point but - MacBook IS NOT A GAMING laptop. And expecting a Nvidia GT 950 or 960 in a MacBook is like expecting a Boeing Turbine engine in a BMW i8. The new update makes the laptop more up-to-date. And thats exactly what its supposed to do. The new MacBook is still crazy fast-crazy sexy-crazy efficient and its GPU is more than enough for anything other than intense gaming. Video-Developing-Photo Editing...the lot. Anyone waiting for the SkyLake expecting a Nvidia GT 950 or 960 is gonna be severely disappointed cos Apple won't ever go that way. Other laptops do have achieved a thinner and meaner profile even with a big dGPu but I would like to see one that has come near a MacBook in terms of the full package - Battery Life, Looks e.t.c :apple:

If anyone wants to make a point related to Value for Money - I am gonna agree. Apple isn't the most cost efficient company. But you pay for the experience and I feel that apple provides value for money in that regard.

Peace

rev.b · May 24, 2015

950M would be the natural evolution of the 750M, what am I missing here?

rence92 · May 24, 2015

Hey guys, I recently got my hands on the 15-inch retina with the dGPU. Haven't had bootcamp installed so I can't really test the performance, but I tried playing Borderlands 2 and noticed that the fans ran louder than my old 2010 MBP. Tried to measure the sound levels and it read 60-65 DB. Is this normal?

Maxx Power · May 24, 2015

leman said:
This is certainly true, and I have mentioned the weak DP performance of Nvidia GPUs before, but does it matter? What kind of OpenCL workflows are important to a con(pro)sumer? We are mostly looking at image and sound processing. None of these need double precision, even if you are doing HDR. What else? Cryptography? Here you need integer and bitwise operations.

From the top of my mind, only scientific stuff would need double precision. And you are not going to run that on a laptop. From general publics perspective, double precision is a neat feature that nobody actually needs.

You are absolutely right about the scientific/engineering community. I do a lot of modelling that requires fast double precision. I know that a lot of researchers prefer Macintosh computers for the reason that they are quite reliable on average. Where I used to work have entire labs for numerical computation that are iMac based. It is no longer the norm to have your code ran on super computers, but rather to have it running/built/debugged on your personal/lab computer, which is what I am seeing in the field.

I seem to see a lot of colleagues and students use Macbooks at conferences, but I can not put an exact percentage of scientific/engineer users to substantiate how important double precision is for the market. I think it is safe to assume, however, that the people who use these machines for scientific purposes are in the same ball park as the people who use these machines for artistic purposes.

puelocesar · May 24, 2015

ApoorvPrem said:
https://compubench.com/compare.jsp?...9+M370X&D2=NVIDIA+GeForce+GT+750M+Mac+Edition

If we can't call this improvement I don't know what can. Lets stick to the point but - MacBook IS NOT A GAMING laptop. And expecting a Nvidia GT 950 or 960 in a MacBook is like expecting a Boeing Turbine engine in a BMW i8. The new update makes the laptop more up-to-date. And thats exactly what its supposed to do. The new MacBook is still crazy fast-crazy sexy-crazy efficient and its GPU is more than enough for anything other than intense gaming. Video-Developing-Photo Editing...the lot. Anyone waiting for the SkyLake expecting a Nvidia GT 950 or 960 is gonna be severely disappointed cos Apple won't ever go that way. Other laptops do have achieved a thinner and meaner profile even with a big dGPu but I would like to see one that has come near a MacBook in terms of the full package - Battery Life, Looks e.t.c
If anyone wants to make a point related to Value for Money - I am gonna agree. Apple isn't the most cost efficient company. But you pay for the experience and I feel that apple provides value for money in that regard.

Peace

I agree. Also, why people are so desperate to update computers every year? Apple computers can last several years running well

brdeveloper · May 24, 2015

I wouldn't lose my time waiting for some miraculous benchmark which will prove a m370x is 2-2.5x as faster as a 750m. I think that Apple basically started negotiations with nVidia last year with the following dialogue:

Nvidia: You need us, we make the fastest and most efficient GPUs in the market.

Apple: But your prices are very high, and AMD offers very good GPUs. Our consumers won't care if they're losing the top-notch stuff if we release something with visible improvements. Lower your prices and we'll have a deal.

Nvidia: Well, again, our product is the best available in the market. Do you try these bargains with Intel?

Apple: AMD CPUs are not an option, but they produce quite good GPUs.

Nvidia: What will your consumers think when they know that a Dell or a Lenovo laptop run games way better than Macbooks?

Apple: Firstly, our main target is not gamers. Secondly, Dell and Lenovo rarely use top-notch GPUs, unless in their expensive and heavyweight ones. But those laptops are desktops in truth. So, again, our consumers won't care.

That's why nvidia didn't equipped the latest Macbooks. Perhaps around 2016-2017 we'll see nvidia graphics again on Macs. At that time, 9xx GPUs will be cheap enough to keep Apple's profit margins.

elmateo487 · May 24, 2015

rev.b said:
950M would be the natural evolution of the 750M, what am I missing here?

So are you one of those who wanted the 950m? The same 950m that has the exact same performance of the 850m? The same 950m that is going to give you +2fps in games and no gains in openCL?

You guys are nuts. Lol. Graphics gains of 30% actually mean almost nothing. Lol. And to wait an EXTRA possible year for that is so crazy. My computer literally makes me money. And I would never hold out for a small bump in CPU power and GPU power for a whole YEAR.

If you are in need of an upgrade. Do it now. If you are just buying a top of the line MBP because it is what you want, but don't actually use it for professional work? Might as well wait a few more years you know. Until that magical perfect number of stats is parroted through the forums a millions times and you are finally convinced.

----------

SCOLANATOR said:
Perhaps due to cost? Upgrading a Mac and gaming rig every year or two is an expensive proposition.

Who says that you upgrade every year? Oh come on.

MacDevMike · May 24, 2015

rev.b said:
950M would be the natural evolution of the 750M, what am I missing here?

I actually just returned the 2015 MBP guys. My current 750m is just too solid for me to justify selling it and taking half the storage and a slower CPU and only getting a 20-30% bump on the GPU. The machines like the Razerblade running GeForce 970m's, Apples refusal to put a more relevant GPU in the machine frustrates me.

I'm seriously thinking about moving to a 27" iMac 5k with the 295x in it. GPU would be 4x as fast as my 750m machine, and that 5k screen is lust worthy for my programming sessions.

TechZeke · May 24, 2015

brdeveloper said:
I wouldn't lose my time waiting for some miraculous benchmark which will prove a m370x is 2-2.5x as faster as a 750m. I think that Apple basically started negotiations with nVidia last year with the following dialogue:

Nvidia: You need us, we make the fastest and most efficient GPUs in the market.

Apple: But your prices are very high, and AMD offers very good GPUs. Our consumers won't care if they're losing the top-notch stuff if we release something with visible improvements. Lower your prices and we'll have a deal.

Nvidia: Well, again, our product is the best available in the market. Do you try these bargains with Intel?

Apple: AMD CPUs are not an option, but they produce quite good GPUs.

Nvidia: What will your consumers think when they know that a Dell or a Lenovo laptop run games way better than Macbooks?

Apple: Firstly, our main target is not gamers. Secondly, Dell and Lenovo rarely use top-notch GPUs, unless in their expensive and heavyweight ones. But those laptops are desktops in truth. So, again, our consumers won't care.

That's why nvidia didn't equipped the latest Macbooks. Perhaps around 2016-2017 we'll see nvidia graphics again on Macs. At that time, 9xx GPUs will be cheap enough to keep Apple's profit margins.

magbarn said:
I'm using the 1st gen rMBP and after finding out Apple is using this lackluster chip, I'm going to wait. To add insult to injury they're also using the same darn cpu for the last 2 years! (I know it's Intel's fault for this crap)
Someone here mentioned the 2015 rMBP 15 refresh is the iPad 3 all over again which isn't that far off the mark.

This 'refresh' has all the markings of a money saving move as most likely Apple didn't want to renew Nvidia's contract on their mobile GPU's. Either that or AMD let them see a few 14nm prototypes that they were impressed with.

If you follow used macbook pricing trends the highest amount of depreciation -like cars- is in the first 2 years or so. Our Ivy Bridge rMBP's are currently going for around $1200 or so and will probably won't be going to $600 anytime soon. (This is remarkable compared to PC laptops which would be down to 25% or so of original value) OTOH, the next gen skylake rMBP with presumably either a maxwell gpu or a 14nm AMD chip (finally a true upgrade after 3 years of 28nm STAGNATION) will cause your brand new $2500 to lose quite a bit of value off the bat.

So much drama. The M370X shows a clear improvement over the 750M, and people still complain.

Also, comparing this to the iPad 3 fiasco is not an Apples to Apples comparison. (I owned an iPad 3, so I know) The M370X is not lackluster or underpowered for the Retina Display like the iPad 3 was. If that was the case, your precious NVIDIA 750Ms and 650Ms would have been underpowered as well, as the M370X shows a clear substantial improvement over both these chips.

Go get a Razer Blade if you want a GTX 9x0M GPU so bad, you won't be missed.

Also, nVidia needs competition anyway. If AMD goes under, expect your dGPU rMBP to increase by $200-$300.

sebseb · May 24, 2015

ApoorvPrem said:
is like expecting a Boeing Turbine engine in a BMW i8.

Boeing doesn't make Turbines....just saying.

and the i8 is already a great car, doesn't need Turbines.

I feel some people here need to take some electrical courses and realize how wattage works. I'm surprised people did not expect Apple to put a Titan on this update. Do you know how much more improvement that is over the 750M??

I played games with my MBP and it killed it. So I highly recommend you get the iGPU and with the extra cash, get a PS4/Xbox 1.

Deniax · May 24, 2015

MacDevMike said:
I actually just returned the 2015 MBP guys. My current 750m is just too solid for me to justify selling it and taking half the storage and a slower CPU and only getting a 20-30% bump on the GPU. The machines like the Razerblade running GeForce 970m's, Apples refusal to put a more relevant GPU in the machine frustrates me.

I'm seriously thinking about moving to a 27" iMac 5k with the 295x in it. GPU would be 4x as fast as my 750m machine, and that 5k screen is lust worthy for my programming sessions.

Still very appreciated for all the time you spend benchmarking it and spreading the info!

magbarn · May 24, 2015

TechZeke said:
So much drama. The M370X shows a clear improvement over the 750M, and people still complain.

Also, comparing this to the iPad 3 fiasco is not an Apples to Apples comparison. (I owned an iPad 3, so I know) The M370X is not lackluster or underpowered for the Retina Display like the iPad 3 was. If that was the case, your precious NVIDIA 750Ms and 650Ms would have been underpowered as well, as the M370X shows a clear substantial improvement over both these chips.

Go get a Razer Blade if you want a GTX 9x0M GPU so bad, you won't be missed.

Also, nVidia needs competition anyway. If AMD goes under, expect your dGPU rMBP to increase by $200-$300.

So buyers of >$2500 laptops are now expected to be charity cases for AMD? The 950M uses the same damn amount of power as the 370x so it's not a jet engine. A 980m would.

TechZeke · May 24, 2015

magbarn said:
So buyers of >$2500 laptops are now expected to be charity cases for AMD? The 950M uses the same damn amount of power as the 370x so it's not a jet engine. A 980m would.

That's not what I'm saying at all. Apple determines what they put in their machines. I'm just saying that there is too much drama over this chip. The GPU is clearly an improvement. From the sounds of this thread, it almost seems like they would rather have Apple still sell the 750M over the M370X just because it's AMD. For $2500 I'm spending anyway, I'd rather take the significantly faster M370X over the outdated 750M.

It's frivolous complaining about not having a 950M. Whats done is done, there are other options on the market if the 950M means so much to you.

Roderwald · May 24, 2015

Retina 15" 2015 Bootcamp Benchmarks

Hello,

i bought mine in the apple store yesterday. (MacBook 15" with 2,5GHz (i7 4870HQ) and R9 M370X).

I installed Bootcamp last night and did some Benchmarks under Windows 8.1 Professional 64Bit. Here the results (with the Standard driver):

SSD:
Screenshot AS SSD

3DMark 2011 (free version): Screenshot

3DMark (free version with Fire Strike etc):
Screenshot 1
Screenshot 2

I will do some more Benches next week

- Till now everything works fine (Borderlands 2 maxed out on 1920x1200 works like a charm).

PS: Catalyst recognizes it as 8800M series... Screenshot Catalyst

rence92 · May 24, 2015

Roderwald said:
Hello,

i bought mine in the apple store yesterday. (MacBook 15" with 2,5GHz (i7 4870HQ) and R9 M370X).

I installed Bootcamp last night and did some Benchmarks under Windows 8.1 Professional 64Bit. Here the results:

SSD:
Screenshot AS SSD

3DMark 2011: Screenshot

3DMark:
Screenshot 1
Screenshot 2

I will do some more Benches next week - Till now everything works fine (Borderlands 2 maxed out on 1920x1200 works like a charm).

Thanks for the benchmarks. Any chance you tried running Borderlands in OSX?

Zarniwoop · May 24, 2015

brdeveloper said:
I wouldn't lose my time waiting for some miraculous benchmark which will prove a m370x is 2-2.5x as faster as a 750m. I think that Apple basically started negotiations with nVidia last year with the following dialogue:

Nvidia: You need us, we make the fastest and most efficient GPUs in the market.

Apple: But your prices are very high, and AMD offers very good GPUs. Our consumers won't care if they're losing the top-notch stuff if we release something with visible improvements. Lower your prices and we'll have a deal.

Nvidia: Well, again, our product is the best available in the market. Do you try these bargains with Intel?

Apple: AMD CPUs are not an option, but they produce quite good GPUs.

Nvidia: What will your consumers think when they know that a Dell or a Lenovo laptop run games way better than Macbooks?

Apple: Firstly, our main target is not gamers. Secondly, Dell and Lenovo rarely use top-notch GPUs, unless in their expensive and heavyweight ones. But those laptops are desktops in truth. So, again, our consumers won't care.

That's why nvidia didn't equipped the latest Macbooks. Perhaps around 2016-2017 we'll see nvidia graphics again on Macs. At that time, 9xx GPUs will be cheap enough to keep Apple's profit margins.

I think the real discussion was something like this:

Apple: We want a chip that supports OpenCL 2.0 & 2.1

Nvidia: Our GPUs will support OpenCL up to version 1.2. Please use Cuda.

Apple: OpenCL 2.1 is a key feature of Vulkan, which is on our roadmap.

Nvidia: We'll give you partial Vulkan support without openCL 2.0.

Apple: our next display supports Freesync.

Nvidia: Sorry, we do not support Freesync. Please, lisence G-sync.

Apple: Bye!

"AMD, ARM, Intel, HPC, and YetiWare have declared support for OpenCL 2.1." - Wikipedia

koyoot · May 24, 2015

So in fact, R9 M370X is on par with GTX675M which was in 27 inch iMac. Not bad at all.

leman · May 24, 2015

Zarniwoop said:
I think the real discussion was something like this:

[...]

"AMD, ARM, Intel, HPC, and YetiWare have declared support for OpenCL 2.1." - Wikipedia

What nonsense... The m370x also does not support OpenCL 2.0/2.1 And Nvidia will most likely support Vulkan at launch.

koyoot · May 24, 2015

leman said:
What nonsense... The m370x also does not support OpenCL 2.0/2.1 And Nvidia will most likely support Vulkan at launch.

Exactly. So in fact, if Apple will want to upgrade any on their "content creation" computers, they will need to use Hawaii or Tonga, or Fiji GPUs, to work with OpenCL 2.0.

OpenCL 2.0 works with GCN 1.1(Hawaii) or later.

MacDevMike · May 24, 2015

koyoot said:
So in fact, R9 M370X is on par with GTX675M which was in 27 inch iMac. Not bad at all.

That card was released in March of 2012, and was shipped in an Asus G75 for 1299 at Best Buy. I could be off base, but with so many parts of the MBP impressive (PCIE SSD, 4980HQ, Retina display, dual Thunderbolt 2 ports, etc) I just can't figure out why they aim for a GPU that dated.

PCs aren't an option for me due to being an iOS developer, but the reality is I need two machines.

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