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Old Feb 18, 2008, 09:11 AM   #251
blackbelt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattInOz View Post
1)There is already free content podcasts and Webapps.
Moving webapps to free widgets (sdk or web) lowers bandwidth improves exprience adds confidence for people like banks to add secure online banking apps for their customers, not apps that are likely to be paid for. Nothing bad for Apple or At&t to allow a free app channel.

2) is more about at&t and how they have written there contract. If they don't want or haven't allowed for such things and haven't expressly written that in to the contract then most of their shareholders should be annoyed.

Not Apples job to maintain that, if anything Apple job in the carrier relationship is to create demand for higher bandwidth and value contracts which is good for both.

3)three is about confidence in the product and the brand name. it's not unreasonable it's expected.
as long as the applications are cheap, i don't mind paying a few bucks for something that i will always have and use constantly (unlike a $12 movie). I think that if the developers are getting paid a decent amount for their apps, the competition will be better, and we will benifit with better products.
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 09:18 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Alphy View Post
Shutting a developer's site down because he made mention of the next logical installment 1.1.n+1 (zomg!), in a series? No, I'm sorry, no matter how you try and spin this, it still seems kind of childish on Apple's part. Breaking an NDA and posting screenshots of 1.14 would be one thing, sending a takedown notice because of three numbers and "alpha", is another.
Im seriously beginning to dobut if half the people on this forum have actually read what was said on Tiny-Code.com. I suppose as Apple forced it's closure you haven't been bothered to find out. It didn't just mention three numbers and the word alpha, it said that Tiny-Code was developing for the SDK in conjunction with Apple, that Apple was forcing the developers it hired to kill their previous repo's and that applications would be sold on iTunes. The guy behind the site further went on to post on this forum hinting at a 26th feb release date.

Now, i don't like that the site has been taken down and it's a shame this developer wont be working on future releases, but he DID break the NDA, he said so himself on here. Would you really hire this guy if you had a project you wanted to keep secret?
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 09:32 AM   #253
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Just one more thing ...

Apple obviously has a right to protect its intellectual property. It has a right to enforce NDAs.

Having said that, it's not difficult to arrive reasonably at the hypothesis that rumor sites like this one would not be nearly as interesting as they are if someone, somewhere wasn't violating the NDA. It's kind of a double standard, in the sense that on one hand people are blasting this guy for violating his NDA, and on the other hand the same folks are keenly interested in the information that results.
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 09:47 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by jakovasaur View Post
The SDK is NOT what everyone thinks it will be. Jailbreaking will still be a necessity for many.

1) Apps will NOT be free. None of them. Apple engineers must disassemble and approve every app, and distribute them through their iTunes network. Tell me where free apps work in that business model.

2) Many "holy grail" apps will never see the light of day because Apple is beholden to AT&T, and their own shareholders' profits. Apps that would seriously cut into revenue (be it services or bandwidth) will be forbidden. This includes iChat, VoIP, streaming music, ringtone services, and any service that offers a competitive disadvantage to either company.

3) Official apps will not have unfettered access to the iPhone's file system. They will run as a non-root user with severely limited file permissions. Think they're going to let you drop files into the /Library/Ringtones directory? Really?
1) Apple might be checking every app, but that isn't really that sure. Personally I don't think Apple has the time for that kind of crap. Oh and distribution through iTunes isn't even sure, and if so, it'll probably be in the forms of some "report bad app" way, like Youtube or so.

2) Dude, half of the apps you name there are already in installer.app, so if apple wants to keep having a advantage over the internal competition, they'll have to.

3) None of the apps, nor Apple's nor 3rd party apps have such access right now. Doesn't make any difference if it wouldn't be there, it never has
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakovasaur View Post
Does any of it sound unreasonable? Take off your fan hat and put on your shareholder hat. Apple isn't releasing an SDK to make iPhone users happier, they're releasing it to bolster phone sales and profit from the already successful model of iPod software distribution through iTunes.
If I put up my shareholder hat, I'd want the SDK to be as competitive as other smartphones SDKs are (such as Google's Android platform, which is good example of iPhone competition). Oh right, and if the SDK wouldn't make customers happier wouldn't that mean less iPhones sold and your "shareholder hat" failed pretty badly .

So, no, none of said above by you makes any sense, in fact, you're making a contra dictio interminis with you "shareholders point of view" and "SDK not giving growth to the iPhone sales"
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 10:04 AM   #255
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This discussion reminds me of why Apple owners are the most often derided group of tech owners - you take fanboyism so far that not only do you want to own all the products, you want to own part of the company making them. So even when Apple does something anti-consumer, you are emotionally hedged by your investment in the company itself. Result is that blind fanbots are all over the place defending their every step. Excuse me while I puke.

Apple seem to enjoy attempting to stifle a thriving underground scene, but as has been proving time and again this will never work, and ultimately you cannot ever kill open source. When the primary developer halts any project, others will fill the shoes and continue. This SDK is going to introduce nothin more than less-is-more apps which are grossly overpriced for what they do. ie. Just like life on normal OSX.
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 10:05 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Alphy View Post
Shutting a developer's site down because he made mention of the next logical installment 1.1.n+1 (zomg!), in a series? No, I'm sorry, no matter how you try and spin this, it still seems kind of childish on Apple's part. Breaking an NDA and posting screenshots of 1.14 would be one thing, sending a takedown notice because of three numbers and "alpha", is another.
Apple didn't force him to shut down the site. They told him to take down the offending material. He is the one that decided to redirect his site to Apple's iPhone dev site as some sort of defiance. Please give us a break with trying to make us feel bad for this guy.
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 10:06 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Flying Dutchman View Post
1) Apple might be checking every app, but that isn't really that sure. Personally I don't think Apple has the time for that kind of crap. Oh and distribution through iTunes isn't even sure, and if so, it'll probably be in the forms of some "report bad app" way, like Youtube or so.
Well, assuming their business model in that case would be to get a percentage of all sales through the store, there's a distinct possibility.

Quote:
2) Dude, half of the apps you name there are already in installer.app, so if apple wants to keep having a advantage over the internal competition, they'll have to.
What makes you think Apple would consider this an advantage, or would want to keep it? Apple wants its user to be locked within this business model. They're much more likely to pool huge resources into locking each new firmware release than to give us the apps only a minority of users would ever want.

Yes, I realize a fair number of people in this forum might be interested in a terminal, an ssh client or a perl interpreter. I know I am. But we remain a very, very small minority, therefore we have no weight whatsoever. If every single one of us decided never to buy an iPod again, Apple would never even notice.
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 10:09 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by zetsurin View Post
This discussion reminds me of why Apple owners are the most often derided group of tech owners - you take fanboyism so far that not only do you want to own all the products, you want to own part of the company making them. So even when Apple does something anti-consumer, you are emotionally hedged by your investment in the company itself. Result is that blind fanbots are all over the place defending their every step. Excuse me while I puke.

Apple seem to enjoy attempting to stifle a thriving underground scene, but as has been proving time and again this will never work, and ultimately you cannot ever kill open source. When the primary developer halts any project, others will fill the shoes and continue. This SDK is going to introduce nothin more than less-is-more apps which are grossly overpriced for what they do. ie. Just like life on normal OSX.
People like you honestly make me sick. You sit there and claim that one group of people are blindly defending something when you have no facts to back up your claim. Your claim of what we should be so mad about IS COMPLETE CONJECTURE!!! Apple HAS NOT RELEASED THEIR SDK YET. Please stop being so mad about something they haven't even done. You are pissed about WHAT YOU THINK they are going to do.

In this scenario who is the one with the problem? The one who blindly blasts Apple for something they haven't even done or the one who says let's wait and see what they actually do.

And one last thing, this concept of hating so called Apple fanbois is the ultimate example of being a fanboi for anything that isn't Apple. There is a huge group of people in the world (yourself included?) that seem to hate everything about Apple and make it their mission to dismiss ANYONE that likes Apple at all. That is the definition of a zealot. So get a life.
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 10:14 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by frankly View Post
People like you honestly make me sick.
I can understand why it makes you sick because I described you. You are posting endless defense messages (look at the history, it seems like a new one each 15 mins) when all you have yourself is speculation at best. Pot, Kettle, Fanboi.

BTW, I have an iPhone and a Macbook, and an iPod Video + G4 iBook before that. You are proving my point that because I question Apple, then you assume I mustn't own any of their products. So predicable.
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 10:18 AM   #260
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I can understand why it makes you sick because I described you. You are posting endless defense messages (look at the history, it seems like a new one each 15 mins) when all you have yourself is speculation at best. Pot, Kettle, Fanboi.

BTW, I have an iPhone and a Macbook, and an iPod Video + G4 iBook before that. Your generalisations are so wrong and you've clearly failed with your reverse generalisation.
And you obviously haven't been reading my posts. Pot, kettle, idiot.
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 10:21 AM   #261
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Pot, kettle, idiot.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 10:21 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by boz0 View Post
I'll set aside for now Apple's tendancy to grossly overcharge for their products - if they can get away with a 50% margin and still sell a ton of their stuff, well, we're the consumers who are dumb enough to pay the premium, myself included.

What I fear, though, is that Apple will not allow those who wish to deliver free software to do so through the iTunes Store. I fully expect many developers to try and port various free software apps to this SDK, and it would really be ugly from Apple to force them to set a minimum price.
we share the same concern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by from my original post
apple may charge as much as they deem passable for their products, but as long as they allow 3rd parties to decide the price of their apps, includingly releasing them free of charge, i am absolutely ok with such a model;
i want to be able to release free apps on itunes if i desire so, and enjoy other people's free apps; i consider this essential for a healthy software market. and i do hope apple share that consideration.

then again, some time ago i had similar hopes for sony's psp, and we all know how that platform ended up. so i guess we'll have to wait and see.

Last edited by darkblu; Feb 18, 2008 at 10:26 AM.
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 10:28 AM   #263
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Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
If you're 12 it might be considered imitation. Otherwise it is known as parody. Get a clue and get off your high horse.
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 10:29 AM   #264
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then again, some time ago i had similar hopes for sony's psp, and we all know how that platform ended up. so i guess we'll have to wait and see.
True, however don't overlook the outcome of that, which is the fact that today all PSP's are universally exploitable by a simple battery. Firmware 2.0 came, was considered to be the big one that couldn't be broken (much like the imminent 1.1.4) yet it was exploited because of one simple fact: it's programmable. Virtually every update since then also fell to a similar fate.

If Apple locks down the firmware so that exploits on pre-installed unit can't be found, the approach will shift to the highly successful approach that Dark Alex employs of patching the software before it makes it to the device. As more is learnt about the workings of the iPhone, this will also happen (in fact, early signs of this started happening with mixed success with 1.1.3) just as happened on the PSP. And periodically exploits will be found in installed units that allow them to get onto the custom firmware bandwagon.

Last edited by zetsurin; Feb 18, 2008 at 10:37 AM.
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 11:25 AM   #265
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Post Umm....

I don't "feel bad for the guy", BUT I *can* appreciate the fact that he seems to be about the only developer who stuck his neck out (letting it get chopped off in the process) to keep people informed about what's happening.

Yes, it's clear he broke the terms of the NDA. He also did so in a "minimalist" manner, which probably helps shield him from an expensive lawsuit. (Looks like he gambled that Apple wouldn't do more to him than take away his right to develop with the pre-release SDK in a partnership with them, if he pulled his site and only made a few general statements to the public. If he left the site up, AND spilled lots of details - then he'd probably be held liable for financial damages.)

I think he said JUST enough to warn everybody that Apple's "long term plan" seems to be about CHARGING for all these apps and games that were formerly free with unofficial hacks. They're trying to make the transition smoother by bribing the developers away, behind the scenes, with advance copies of the SDK, etc. That's within Apple's rights, obviously -- but if successful, would also make it appear to "outsiders" that developers just willingly transitioned over to the "distributed only via iTunes, for $" distribution model. In reality, they were getting a little more out of the deal.....


Quote:
Originally Posted by frankly View Post
Apple didn't force him to shut down the site. They told him to take down the offending material. He is the one that decided to redirect his site to Apple's iPhone dev site as some sort of defiance. Please give us a break with trying to make us feel bad for this guy.
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 11:37 AM   #266
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Is there an exact date for the release of the sdk? Or can it happen at anytime this month?
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 12:00 PM   #267
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I don't "feel bad for the guy", BUT I *can* appreciate the fact that he seems to be about the only developer who stuck his neck out (letting it get chopped off in the process) to keep people informed about what's happening.

Yes, it's clear he broke the terms of the NDA. He also did so in a "minimalist" manner, which probably helps shield him from an expensive lawsuit. (Looks like he gambled that Apple wouldn't do more to him than take away his right to develop with the pre-release SDK in a partnership with them, if he pulled his site and only made a few general statements to the public. If he left the site up, AND spilled lots of details - then he'd probably be held liable for financial damages.)

I think he said JUST enough to warn everybody that Apple's "long term plan" seems to be about CHARGING for all these apps and games that were formerly free with unofficial hacks. They're trying to make the transition smoother by bribing the developers away, behind the scenes, with advance copies of the SDK, etc. That's within Apple's rights, obviously -- but if successful, would also make it appear to "outsiders" that developers just willingly transitioned over to the "distributed only via iTunes, for $" distribution model. In reality, they were getting a little more out of the deal.....
So why didn't he just email MacRumors from behind the scenes? Wouldn't it have accomplished the same thing without him losing his access to the SDK? In the manner that he did it it seemed more about him wanting attention for himself and his site than about keeping "the people" informed.
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 12:17 PM   #268
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True, however don't overlook the outcome of that, which is the fact that today..
..psp is as far from a viable 3rd-party software market as a device can be.

don't get me wrong, i love the device - it's my preferred pdf reader platform, lua-on-the-go platform, and generally favorite device to tinker with, but i would write zero commercial software for it. and the moment developers lose commercial interest in a platform, that same moment you can kiss goodbye to it ever reaching its full potential. unless you think the consumer prefers experimental stuff to stable, continually-supported and well-maintained applications.

so yeah, the grand total outcome of the whole psp exercise for 3rd parties and their customers was a crippled platform, one that will never reach its full potential of universal adoption, healthy market platform. which is a darn shame, if you ask me.

so here's to hoping apple is more sane than that.

Last edited by darkblu; Feb 18, 2008 at 12:52 PM.
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 12:26 PM   #269
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Is there an exact date for the release of the sdk? Or can it happen at anytime this month?
No, there is no exact date yet.

Apple seems to like to update things on Tuesdays, and Steve jobs told everyone at MacWorld that the SDK would be in late February.

That said, Apple could just release it at any point, though history seems to lead us in the "Update Tuesday" direction.

That leaves the 19th and the 26nd of this month. It seems to be a common guess that it will be out the 26th.

My guess is that Apple might be announcing an event or something tomorrow for the SDK launch, but that is just a shot in the dark.
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 12:54 PM   #270
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Thumbs down I Hate to Say This, But...

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Originally Posted by Kelly™ View Post
Two: Yes, Tiny-Code.com was ordered to be removed from operation by Apple, Inc because by releasing firmware versions and stating I had possession of the firmware and SDK was apparently a violation of the Non-Disclosure Agreement I agreed to when I accepted a copy of the SDK and firmware.

Three: Yes I was wrist-slapped by Apple and won't be included in any further firmware beta's or testing/coding.


Regards,
Kelly

I hate to say this, but... dumb a$$.

Despite your hacking of the iPhone and violating just about every Apple regarding the iPhone, Apple respects your skills enough to include you in official iPhone App development by giving you advanced copies of the SDK and upcoming firmware. That is a testament to your knowledge and skills.

Yet you violate your NDA and post this on your website.

Not smart. Not smart at all.
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 01:04 PM   #271
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Apple obviously has a right to protect its intellectual property. It has a right to enforce NDAs.
Actually, Apple have an obligation to enforce NDAs. All the NDAs I've ever dealt with (not Apple - but I'll bet the same lawyer-speak is common to such things) says that breach of an NDA will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. If Apple does not go the whole nine yards on hammering this pumpkin, then any punk developer will think they can gat away with ignoring the NDAs. Apple must take action or their ability to defend their intellectual property goes down the toilet because they are providing a precedent to anyone who wants to challenge them in court.

This individual blew it. Big time. Now he has taken his ball and gone to sulk in a corner. Now Apple have to decide if the cost of dragging him through a court is more expensive than the amount of money they can sue his hide for. They my toast him anyway - as a warning to the others.

It's kind of watching the IT version of the Darwin Awards
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 01:29 PM   #272
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Hi, this is my first message and i'm not English, so it's possible my writing is not correct.

Well, i think we'll have to pay for applications, but perhaps Apple will offer us two versions of each app - a free direct donwload which hasn't been tested or checked by Apple, and we'll can also buy the app for some money, guaranteed virus-free.

So i think we'll pay for the work that Apple will do, but not for the apps, which will be free but might damage our iPhone / iPod touch, like iJalibreak.
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 01:43 PM   #273
frankly
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Hi, this is my first message and i'm not English, so it's possible my writing is not correct.

Well, i think we'll have to pay for applications, but perhaps Apple will offer us two versions of each app - a free direct donwload which hasn't been tested or checked by Apple, and we'll can also buy the app for some money, guaranteed virus-free.

So i think we'll pay for the work that Apple will do, but not for the apps, which will be free but might damage our iPhone / iPod touch, like iJalibreak.
I'm not sure yet if there will or won't be free apps available but I think it is a pretty safe bet that if there are free apps it won't be via the method described above.
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 02:04 PM   #274
Kelly™
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Post Update

Hey Guys,
It's finally time I just come out and say it; I lied.

Tiny-Code never had any relations with Apple, Inc. or any other division of Apple. Never had the new firmware or any pre-SDK pack. Certainly never signed any NDA.

I find it interesting that a simple joke on the front of a minor at best Installer.app repo can cause so many wakes.
It is equivocally funny that a simple re-enforcement of the page by me posted earlier stating I had been "reprimanded" by Apple could throw it even more into believability.
To top it all off, a simple redirection of the domain to Apple's iPhone Developer center would cause so many theories as to why that is so when it was to just stop the "where did it go" questions.

All of it should teach everyone at these rumor sites WWWide to not trust anything that did NOT come from the mouth of Apple.
8 lines of text were published on Friday, by Sunday those lines of text are one of the biggest talked about and debated lines of text across Apple related internet sites.

This goes to prove anyone can register a domain one week and less than two later be believed, talked about, debated over, defended, ratted on, bashed, requested to be interviewed on DowJones Newswire and everything else under the sun. The power of the internet is amazing.


I do however wish to make a few apologies because I never actually planned for anyone to give a flying **** about my page or what was on it, let alone make it so popular.

To Apple, Incorporated:
I duly apologize for any confusion I may have caused amongst your ranks attempting to figure out if Tiny-Code or KellyTM belonged to any of the developers you did in fact release firmware to.
I duly apologize for time wasted if anyone at Apple was called in to discuss what was released over a weekend when you should have been off.

To Developers out there:

I apologize for possibly making obtaining pre-release firmware harder to obtain in the future and possibly discrediting any of you in the process.

To MacRumors and other websites publishing information and threads based on what was found on my site:
I apologize you have wasted your time and front-page space on nothing but a made up joke filled with a lie.
I apologize for the time you spent creating your reports and articles and time you will spend writing an article about this.

To Everyone who defended me:

Thank you for your defense and had this not been a lie, you would have been defending someone and that is a good thing, be proud.
I apologize it wasn't truth.

To everyone who bashed me:

well, lol, I can't really apologize to you.


As for the up-side of this:
Rumor sites such as this, Apple Insider, etc, you will have to learn, things like this happen, and you should verify or attempt to credit things said on domains with no more than two pages.

Overall I just apologize. I do not expect forgiveness and I definitely understand the posts following this to be nothing more than bashing. Just know than when I posted that information I had no intention for attention or otherwise, it was simply an excuse to stop publishing to the repo; seemed like a good one at the time.

Sincerest Apologies,
KellyTM/Tiny-Code Developer
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 02:09 PM   #275
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