Windows 7 vs. Snow Leopard

[DMann]

Originally Posted by BongoBanger

I sometimes wonder if people actually know what the registry is and does based on the comments here, why it sometimes gets cluttered and how easy it is to declutter it.

I like DeAgonia - he's always good for a laugh though.

Nah, everyone's just making it up - The Registry is just fine - just delete away - no problem.

[BongoBanger]

Originally Posted by DMann

Nah, everyone's just making it up - The Registry is just fine - just delete away - no problem.

Now why would you do that? Tsk.

There are issues with the registry just as there are issues with using ini and config files. Both have trade offs.

I just find it bizzare that people talk about constant Windows reinstalls when in a corporate setting we installed XP (ugh) three years ago on 10,000+ machines and haven't had to do a reinstall yet.

Of course the reason is that the registry gets cluttered because people install badly coded programs that don't have uninstallers or put themselves in as start ups - you know, like Quicktime does. Fortunately there are increasingly few of these to contend with and in a corporate environment we lock the install function down anyway.

The reason I find it baffling is that a few people state that it's security updates and patches that slow Windows down and that you need to do a clean install to sort it out. Well fine, until you realise that the first thing the reinstall will do will be to reinstall those patches and upadates and that after it's done so the OS is still fast so that they're not the reason at all.

Registry bloat will still happen - as will bloat due to rogue config and ini files - but that can be obviated by the use of an excellent free utility like CCleaner. You could argue that you shouldn't have to but if you move to a central database like structure you'll always have the issue of badly coded applications causing clutter so it's a useful thing to have.

That's whay I fin DeAgonia funny and why I wouldn't quote him as a standalone source for the same reason I wouldn't quote Paul Thurrot on this matter. They both have their own agendas.

[Richard1028]

Originally Posted by ViciousShadow21

yes but not when just simply upgrading the OS. when i installed SL i didnt have to do any of that.

Ok. You didn't have problems so nobody else did. (I get so tired of these, "My mac works therefore everybody else is stupid" comments).

just put the disc in and after 45mins it was updated. didnt have to do all the other steps that djrobsd mentioned.

It took me 35 minutes. You should've left out the extra printer support and language packs.

this doesnt really have anything to do with a being a fanboy. doesnt mean that one OS is better than the other because the upgrade process is simpler on one and not the other.

That's basically what I said to the person I was replying to. Why aren't you telling him?

And there are no fanboy comments here?!?! LOL!

so please lets keep this "discussion" as friendly as possible.

Preaching to the choir kid, but plenty of mods here already... we don't need another.

[DMann]

Originally Posted by BongoBanger

Now why would you do that? Tsk.

There are issues with the registry just as there are issues with using ini and config files. Both have trade offs.

I just find it bizzare that people talk about constant Windows reinstalls when in a corporate setting we installed XP (ugh) three years ago on 10,000+ machines and haven't had to do a reinstall yet.

Of course the reason is that the registry gets cluttered because people install badly coded programs that don't have uninstallers or put themselves in as start ups - you know, like Quicktime does. Fortunately there are increasingly few of these to contend with and in a corporate environment we lock the install function down anyway.

The reason I find it baffling is that a few people state that it's security updates and patches that slow Windows down and that you need to do a clean install to sort it out. Well fine, until you realise that the first thing the reinstall will do will be to reinstall those patches and upadates and that after it's done so the OS is still fast so that they're not the reason at all.

Registry bloat will still happen - as will bloat due to rogue config and ini files - but that can be obviated by the use of an excellent free utility like CCleaner. You could argue that you shouldn't have to but if you move to a central database like structure you'll always have the issue of badly coded applications causing clutter so it's a useful thing to have.

That's whay I fin DeAgonia funny and why I wouldn't quote him as a standalone source for the same reason I wouldn't quote Paul Thurrot on this matter. They both have their own agendas.

The fact that one needs to:

Curb one's choices of software over concerns of The Registry.

Waste hard drive space by having to retain droves of application installer/uninstallers.

Run the risk of ruining the Registry through improper use of CCleaner.

Be mindful or concerned about 'Registry Rot' and Registry bloat at all.


And


The fact that one cannot:

Move an application to a different path on one's machine, or perhaps to a different machine altogether.

Extract the relevant settings for one particular application from The Registry.

Freely trash applications at will. In OS X, apps are self-contained packages - they can be run outside of a folder, and deleted
by simply dumping them into the trash. This cannot be done in Windows without wreaking havoc on the system.


All of this makes The Registry a liability and handicap which is simply not worth dealing with, at all. After one factors in the vigilance

required for running anti-virus scans/programs/updates on top of this, the whole scenario becomes even more dismal and unattractive,

the trade off being that one actually can manage to balance 'a house of cards' if one is diligent enough - been there, done that - no thank you.

[ThatsMeRight]

It's now just a matter of preference. And I stay with Windows, just because like the whole world uses it and everything is created for Windows. When Apple has the majority I will move to Mac OS X because than everything will be created for the Mac.

[BongoBanger]

Originally Posted by DMann

The fact that one needs to:

Curb one's choices of software over concerns of The Registry.

How so? As I mentioned it's only badly written software. The good stuff has installers.

Waste hard drive space by having to retain droves of application installer/uninstallers.

Net total a few meg. About the size of a few mp3 files and irrelevant in the days of terrabyte storage.

Run the risk of ruining the Registry through improper use of CCleaner.

Nope. CCleaner is really good because it doesn't let you do that.

Be mindful or concerned about 'Registry Rot' and Registry bloat at all.

Or rogue configs and inis.

The fact that one cannot:

Move an application to a different path on one's machine, or perhaps to a different machine altogether.

Yes, this is a weakness. Partly overcome in Vista but an issue if you want to move them. Of course you cold just install the application on the other machine.

Extract the relevant settings for one particular application from The Registry.

Yup. You can but it's difficult and unnecessary task.

Freely trash applications at will. In OS X, apps are self-contained packages - they can be run outside of a folder, and deleted
by simply dumping them into the trash. This cannot be done in Windows without wreaking havoc on the system.

Not strictly true. Dragging well written software will remove it from a Mac but it suffers from the issue of residuals where this isn't the case which requires the use of an unistaller, an application like AppZapper or a manual trawl. However, unistalling by dragging and dropping is safer on a Mac than on a PC.

All of this makes The Registry a liability and handicap which is simply not worth dealing with, at all.

No it doesn't. It demonstrates the disadvantages of a registry - which are much reduced on NT variant Windows compared to 9x - without taking account of the advantages a centralised database gives.

After one factors in the vigilance required for running anti-virus scans/programs/updates on top of this, the whole scenario becomes even more dismal and unattractive

How so? These are automated real time low maintenance processes which can also be scheduled.

the trade off being that one actually can manage to balance 'a house of cards' if one is diligent enough - been there, done that - no thank you.

It's easy enough. The vast majority of computer users have few issues. YMMV.

[DMann]

Originally Posted by BongoBanger

How so? As I mentioned it's only badly written software. The good stuff has installers.

Yes, in a similar sense, the good stuff (OSs) can have apps installed and trashed without hassle or concern, can operate

apps outside of their folders, all without dealing with the 'ball of tar' called The Registry.

Net total a few meg. About the size of a few mp3 files and irrelevant in the days of terrabyte storage.

More unnecessary clutter to sift through, hardly worth defending.

Nope. CCleaner is really good because it doesn't let you do that.

Famous last words.

Dangers of Using CCleaner

"Beware of CCLEANER. I tried it and it ruined my registry. I had to use RESTORE to get back what CCLEANER erased. Use with caution.
You will be prompted to accept or decline certain files. Novices don't know better between important files and those that are harmful or unnecessary."

Yes, this is a weakness. Partly overcome in Vista but an issue if you want to move them. Of course you cold just install the application on the other machine.

And if you don't happen to have the install disk handy, you're screwed.

Yup. You can but it's difficult and unnecessary task.

No you cannot, without deciphering unintelligible code. Unnecessary task? Speak for yourself.

Not strictly true. Dragging well written software will remove it from a Mac but it suffers from the issue of residuals where this isn't the case which requires the use of an unistaller, an application like AppZapper or a manual trawl. However, unistalling by dragging and dropping is safer on a Mac than on a PC.

Any Application Support folders, plists, or preferences can be clearly identified and easily trashed without concern in OS X.

Unix also allows different versions to be present in the same directory, whereas Windows does not.

No it doesn't. It demonstrates the disadvantages of a registry - which are much reduced on NT variant Windows compared to 9x - without taking account of the advantages a centralised database gives.

And yet, this remains a poor attempt at defending this archaic puddle of continually rotting rice pudding, a-disaster-waiting-to-happen which is completely avoidable within the OS X environment.

How so? These are automated real time low maintenance processes which can also be scheduled.

More distraction, more attention being diverted from productivity - it all adds up.

It's easy enough. The vast majority of computer users have few issues. YMMV.

Again, speak for yourself - for a vast number of users and IT specialists, Their Mileage Varies Greatly.

[BongoBanger]

Originally Posted by DMann

Famous last words.

Dangers of Using CCleaner

"Beware of CCLEANER. I tried it and it ruined my registry. I had to use RESTORE to get back what CCLEANER erased. Use with caution.
You will be prompted to accept or decline certain files. Novices don't know better between important files and those that are harmful or unnecessary."

Actually, the author advises:

Perhaps I should have started this post by stating that I think CCleaner is an excellent product and that this was the first time I’d ever had a problem which may or may not have been connected to it. I also made it more than clear that the problem may have been my fault. I conceded in the post that I was “over zealous” in my cleaning, that the problem may have been caused by “something that I uninstalled” and that “it is possible I accidentally removed something related to the session manager.”

In other words it wasn't a quick registry scan, it was an attempt to delete multiple applications and clean up and he's not actually sure what he did. Not indicative of general usage.

And if you don't happen to have the install disk handy, you're screwed.

Unless, like the author of that article, you had a recovery partition which he used to recover his system.

And yet, this remains a poor attempt at defending this archaic puddle of continually rotting rice pudding, a-disaster-waiting-to-happen which is completely avoidable within the OS X environment.

Actually it isn't given your entire case appears to be built on one article quote mined about an application which has garnered universal praise and which the author admits may have had nothing to do with the issue at all.

Again, speak for yourself - for a vast number of users and IT specialists, Their Mileage Varies Greatly.

Do you have anything to back that up? And please, do not select anecdotal points from "the internets greatest hits", I would like demonstrations of proven reinstall rates for Windows boxes at individual and corporate level split between 9x and NT systems.

I can only talk from the personal experience of an IT Manager who has stats on 10,000 local installs of XP, none of which have required a reinstall for reasosn of Windows rot or registry malfunction.

The registry has it faults but it works fine unless you do stuff the average user isn't likely to do. This is the same of any operating system - if you start deleting etc folders and the likes on Linux or OS X you're going to have problems. However it works and it's easy to maintain which is one of the reasons Windows remains the corporate - and consumer - platform of choice.

There is a lot of vitriol expounded about the registry by people who don't really understand how it works and the benefits it offers as well as its drawbacks which is more than a little unfair. Really it's down to individual choice which is overwhelmingly - as professionals - to accept that the upside of Windows outweighs the downside and what the competition currently offers.

[wrldwzrd89]

My personal opinion on this matter is that Microsoft would be best served by using a "best of both worlds" approach in the next release of Windows, regarding how the registry is handled. Here's my proposal:
1. Maintain the central structure that is in place today.
2. Change the back-end storage model to compressed XML, instead of the binary blob used today.
3. Update all the registry commands to use this new back-end.
4. Introduce an XREG syntax for adding stuff to the registry, that is XML-based, while still preserving the old REG file method.
This would eliminate many of the Windows registry's disadvantages, while preserving its advantages. It would also introduce some new flexibility:
1. The Registry could be migrated from one machine to another, in its entirety, MUCH more simply.
2. Exporting only pieces of it, for example for individual application settings, would also become a lot easier.
3. This change would align Windows with the direction Office is moving in, which has synergistic implications.

[AAPLaday]

Ideally for me a perfect solution would be a mix of both OS's. Or maybe one day i will build a hackintosh. There are lots of people out there who game on a mac either through cider or bootcamp etc but the frustrating thing is surely the lack of upgradability of macs. My late 2007 iMac is still my main machine and the 2.4GHz cpu is more than powerful enough for my needs, the only thing i would change on it is the graphics card as it isn't great and even at the time wasn't all that.

I know that this wont change as Apple wants you to buy a new system rather than upgrade too many parts yourself but i cant justify spending £1000 every year or so to get a semi decent graphics card. And no a mac pro isn't an option as thats overkill.

I have yet to use Win 7 for more than a few minutes but it does seem a lot snappier than Vista and no matter if Snow Leopard is better or not it wont change the fact that most people who have a computer at home will be running windows, today, tomorrow and in 5 years time.

[FOXEO]

Originally Posted by ThatsMeRight

It's now just a matter of preference. And I stay with Windows, just because like the whole world uses it and everything is created for Windows. When Apple has the majority I will move to Mac OS X because than everything will be created for the Mac.

You know that not "everything" is made for Windows.

For example, there are two programs that are use more than others. Tensai, which wouldn't interest most people, and Final Cut Pro. Neither is available on any other platform other than the Mac. I have found no replacement that I consider suitable for either of these.

Believe it or not, some people won't leave Mac OS X behind because of software unavailable on Windows. I wouldn't leave Mac even if both of these apps were on Windows, because I have a laundry list of complaints about how Windows functions. Some are purely preference, and others are issues of stability and long-term system maintenance.

[DMann]

Originally Posted by BongoBanger

Actually, the author advises:

In other words it wasn't a quick registry scan, it was an attempt to delete multiple applications and clean up and he's not actually sure what he did. Not indicative of general usage.

This doesn't change the fact that you initially claimed:

Originally Posted by BongoBanger

Nope. CCleaner is really good because it doesn't let you do that.

Which, quite frankly, is BS.

If you feel compelled, by some valiant sense of duty, to defend the looming presence of this archaic Registry 'tar ball,' knock yourself out.

Unless, like the author of that article, you had a recovery partition which he used to recover his system.

So now you are telling me that it is possible to move an application to a different path on one's machine from a recovery partition?

Actually it isn't given your entire case appears to be built on one article quote mined about an application which has garnered universal praise and which the author admits may have had nothing to do with the issue at all.

Many more claims exist on BBs about how using CCleaner resulted in making users' PCs non-functional. Yet you stated: "Nope. CCleaner is really good because it doesn't let you do that."

Perhaps we ought to assuage the pain of those who actually have had problems, with your flippant quote.

Do you have anything to back that up? And please, do not select anecdotal points from "the internets greatest hits", I would like demonstrations of proven reinstall rates for Windows boxes at individual and corporate level split between 9x and NT systems.

The four IT workers at Lincoln Center, who, despite their unanimous and continual contempt and distaste for Windows maintenance, (emergency maintenance, crashes, defragging - automatic or not,

reinstalls, re-starts, patching, etc.) concur that this is what keeps them in business. Incidentally, three of them prefer to use Macs at home - go figure.

I can only talk from the personal experience of an IT Manager who has stats on 10,000 local installs of XP, none of which have required a reinstall for reasosn of Windows rot or registry malfunction.

Nice to hear.

The registry has it faults but it works fine unless you do stuff the average user isn't likely to do. This is the same of any operating system - if you start deleting etc folders and the likes on Linux or OS X you're going to have problems. However it works and it's easy to maintain which is one of the reasons Windows remains the corporate - and consumer - platform of choice.

There is a lot of vitriol expounded about the registry by people who don't really understand how it works and the benefits it offers as well as its drawbacks which is more than a little unfair. Really it's down to individual choice which is overwhelmingly - as professionals - to accept that the upside of Windows outweighs the downside and what the competition currently offers.

In OS X, an entire application is contained inside of a single icon. This icon is not a folder, rather, it is the application itself. All associated files are neatly contained inside the "package".

Each program has its discrete preference file, arranged neatly in the Preferences folder; one can back-up any of them, carry them on a USB-stick, delete and reset them on demand, etc.

Now try doing that on a Windows PC. Windows is a complete mess by comparison, a hodgepodge of bad design ideas. It seems that they tidied up the filesystem structure a bit in Vista,

but they still haven't gotten rid of the god-awful, lame excuse of a data-base driven, vulnerable preference repository, that is The Registry. Perhaps they need to keep supporting it for

legacy purposes, but should have moved away from it internally, and pushed third party developers to follow suit, by now. Just imagine how different things would be had Windows NT 3.0 or

3.5 developers decided to turn off public access to the registry, and transparently redirected the public registry API calls so they followed simpler, UNIX-like filesystem storage conventions instead?

The Registry's faults and drawbacks far outweigh any 'imagined' benefits, and the sooner they restructure it, the better.

Originally Posted by wrldwzrd89

My personal opinion on this matter is that Microsoft would be best served by using a "best of both worlds" approach in the next release of Windows, regarding how the registry is handled. Here's my proposal:
1. Maintain the central structure that is in place today.
2. Change the back-end storage model to compressed XML, instead of the binary blob used today.
3. Update all the registry commands to use this new back-end.
4. Introduce an XREG syntax for adding stuff to the registry, that is XML-based, while still preserving the old REG file method.
This would eliminate many of the Windows registry's disadvantages, while preserving its advantages. It would also introduce some new flexibility:
1. The Registry could be migrated from one machine to another, in its entirety, MUCH more simply.
2. Exporting only pieces of it, for example for individual application settings, would also become a lot easier.
3. This change would align Windows with the direction Office is moving in, which has synergistic implications.

This would be, at least, a step in the right direction.

[ViciousShadow21]

Originally Posted by Richard1028

Ok. You didn't have problems so nobody else did. (I get so tired of these, "My mac works therefore everybody else is stupid" comments).

It took me 35 minutes. You should've left out the extra printer support and language packs.

That's basically what I said to the person I was replying to. Why aren't you telling him?

And there are no fanboy comments here?!?! LOL!

Preaching to the choir kid, but plenty of mods here already... we don't need another.

well i guess you just think you know everything. good luck to you with that attitude.

[djellison]

Originally Posted by DMann

All of this makes The Registry a liability and handicap which is simply not worth dealing with, at all..

I've never had to deal with it. It just sits there doing its thing. I don't care about it. I admin 8 XP workstations, 20+ XP Laptops, my own Win7 workstation at home, and a second Win7 machine. And not once - on any of them, has the registry given me any reason to notice it even exists, let alone give me a problem of any sort.

Repair permissions on OSX though? Been told to do that LOTS of times here.

[roadbloc]

It is all a matter of preference. I use a Mac because I generally like the idea of having a stable operating system with excellent hardware integration. I like not having virus's and I like that I don't need to change any default applications because they all work just fine. I also like the fact that there is brilliant support from Apple and that you don't have to spend hours trawling through millions of rubbish programs to get what you want.

Windows user's use Windows because Windows is initially cheaper, it actually looks attractive, they like to download software and updates constantly, they like gaming, and they like to mess with their hardware.

If I just used a computer for Facebook, MSN, bit of word processing and a couple of games, Windows would win any day. Because I'm doing that, PLUS some serious music production, thats why I'm a mac. I'd get about a week of latency if Windows tried doing what I do on my mac.

[muxbox]

Ok guys.

Conclusion.

Windows 7 is faster than Snow Leopard. I think apple have messed up snow leopard as i get pauses and spinning wheels when using any of my 3 different macs.

[roadbloc]

Originally Posted by muxbox

Ok guys.

Conclusion.

Windows 7 is faster than Snow Leopard. I think apple have messed up snow leopard as i get pauses and spinning wheels when using any of my 3 different macs.

i sure hope they were both fresh installs. with windows running anti-virus software, because it will need it. and they were on the same spec computer system.

[MythicFrost]

Windows 7 is faster than Snow Leopard. I think apple have messed up snow leopard as i get pauses and spinning wheels when using any of my 3 different macs.

Did you do a clean install with Snow Leopard, or just an upgrade?
If the latter, did you also upgrade Windows 7 from Vista, that would be a fair comparison imo.

I did an upgrade on my relatively young leopard OS (6 months) and it went great, my clean install on my SSD was great too.

<IMO>
Windows 7 is behind Leopard, it lacks features such as Expose, Spaces, Time Machine, and Quick Look (just to mention a few important ones).
I have SL and W7 on my SSD, I notice the speed improvement greatly with SL, particularly with opening applications, with W7 all I (think I) noticed was some games had better performance.
</IMO>

I had to pay roughly $450 AU for Windows 7 Ultimate, I paid $300 AU for the Mac Box Set with iLife & iWork 09 for up to 5 computers. I wanted iLife & iWork 09, otherwise it was $69 (IIRC) AU for just the upgrade (which you can still do a clean install with)

[mac2x]

As to dealing with the Registry and application preferences:

Would you rather deal with this?:



Or this, a screen shot of Apple's Property List Editor, looking at Finder's plist?:

[muxbox]

Originally Posted by MythicFrost

Did you do a clean install with Snow Leopard, or just an upgrade?
If the latter, did you also upgrade Windows 7 from Vista, that would be a fair comparison imo.

I did an upgrade on my relatively young leopard OS (6 months) and it went great, my clean install on my SSD was great too.

I did an install on top of a 3 month old MAC that i am new to and have yet to install any meaningful software on apart from iWork and iPhone SDK.

The bottleneck i seem to be experiencing on a Mac is the HD access.

The MAC filesystem seems to be flawed and has also thrown up errors on 3 of my 5 macs that i tried to use bootcamp with.

[XNine]

Not sure that all the comments here are 100% accurate in their truthfulness.

I've been using OS X, every single version until Snow Leopard, since 2002. And I've used both Macs and Windows PC's my whole life.

Useful Advantages OS X:
-Simple UI. System Preferences, Contextual Menus, and the Menu Bar are all laid out smoothly, everything is where it should be.
- The Libraries are easy to navigate.
- Powerful Unix commands can wok wonders.
- Amazing Speed in reformatting HDD's.
- Drivers. Ooooh how I love plugging in a Camera that's never been plugged in and iPhoto pops up. Thank You Apple!
- Integration of applications and formats.
- Pro apps. Final Cut (nuff said). Adobe apps even feel much smoother.


Useful Advantages of Windows 7:
- Almost feels like OS X.
- The speed of reformatting drives has been brought up to par with OS X. It's about damn time.
- Better laid out Start Menu and Task Bar.
- Better handling of drivers than ever before.
- A vastly superior selection of hardware.
- Games (I love Steam)


Honestly, these two OS's, as far as the OS goes, are really about as on par with each other as they've ever been. And no matter which one you choose, both are good because it drives competition and innovation in the industry.

[muxbox]

Originally Posted by Onizuka

Not sure that all the comments here are 100% accurate in their truthfulness.

I've been using OS X, every single version until Snow Leopard, since 2002. And I've used both Macs and Windows PC's my whole life.

Useful Advantages OS X:
-Simple UI. System Preferences, Contextual Menus, and the Menu Bar are all laid out smoothly, everything is where it should be.
- The Libraries are easy to navigate.
- Powerful Unix commands can wok wonders.
- Amazing Speed in reformatting HDD's.
- Drivers. Ooooh how I love plugging in a Camera that's never been plugged in and iPhoto pops up. Thank You Apple!
- Integration of applications and formats.
- Pro apps. Final Cut (nuff said). Adobe apps even feel much smoother.


Useful Advantages of Windows 7:
- Almost feels like OS X.
- The speed of reformatting drives has been brought up to par with OS X. It's about damn time.
- Better laid out Start Menu and Task Bar.
- Better handling of drivers than ever before.
- A vastly superior selection of hardware.
- Games (I love Steam)


Honestly, these two OS's, as far as the OS goes, are really about as on par with each other as they've ever been. And no matter which one you choose, both are good because it drives competition and innovation in the industry.

Have you actually tried snow leopard yet? The system is supposed to be faster yet i think it in places it has slowed down like opening and closing applications such as iPhoto.

I do agree that the two systems have never been on such a par as they are today.

The windows UI is now more intuitive than the macs. On the Mac i keep losing all my windows that i have opened yet on windows i can navigate around lots of open windows at high speed.

Am i missing a tirck on the mac? i know i can hold the mouse button down on the applications icon to locate the open windows but this just seems er.. too slow also.

[Jason Beck]

Also let us not forget the Control Panel in Windows 7. It still looks like it got hit by a truck.

[mac2x]

Originally Posted by Jason Beck

Also let us not forget the Control Panel in Windows 7. It still looks like it got hit by a truck.

+1. I tried Win7 on some HP desktop at Costco the other day. While it looks nice at first, the Aero stuff is waaaay over the top, hit-you-in-the-face glitzy. The UI looks nice but it's too busy. I seriously don't get why people think it's all of a sudden better than OS X.

Oh, and the "ribbon interface" sucks big time. Where the heck are the File/Edit menus? I have Office 2007 on my old Dell XP machine, and I knew I hated it already...Mac of course has the traditional stationary menu bar. Getting used to that can be tiresome at first, but the old familiar menus are actually there, unlike with the ribbon business.

[mac2x]

Originally Posted by muxbox

[...]
The windows UI is now more intuitive than the macs. On the Mac i keep losing all my windows that i have opened yet on windows i can navigate around lots of open windows at high speed.

Am i missing a tirck on the mac? i know i can hold the mouse button down on the applications icon to locate the open windows but this just seems er.. too slow also.

Good stuff like Spaces and Exposé are easy to use; much easier than Win7. Particularly if you enable Hot Corners.