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Old Jan 29, 2010, 02:12 AM   #126
bfayle
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The best way that I've found is to use the terminal and the "ditto" command.

If your not used to using a terminal shell here's some hints:

type "man ditto" to get help on ditto

use the tab key to get terminal to automatically autocomplete file names as you type them.

ditto works much better than cp -r
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Old Feb 25, 2010, 02:32 PM   #127
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I like Apples default of replacing better than Microsoft's default of merging.

But give me the ability of doing what I want when I want.


One thing I like with Microsoft is the ability to drag while holding the right button down and then getting a menu asking me whether I want to copy or replace. Even before I know whether the destination is on the same drive or not. I wish Apple gave me that control - but add one option, letting me choose to "copy", "move", or "merge".

I wonder if one can create an AppleScript to access Unix commands to do a merge.

Last edited by kainjow; Feb 25, 2010 at 04:16 PM. Reason: merged posts. please use multiquote
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Old Feb 25, 2010, 03:00 PM   #128
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I like Apples default of replacing better than Microsoft's default of merging.

But give me the ability of doing what I want when I want.


One thing I like with Microsoft is the ability to drag while holding the right button down and then getting a menu asking me whether I want to copy or replace. Even before I know whether the destination is on the same drive or not. I wish Apple gave me that control - but add one option, letting me choose to "copy", "move", or "merge".
I like that idea, merged with the current pop-up menus on drag from iMovie. Doesn't even require the right mouse button, though perhaps that'd be nice so it didn't pop up every time. Options are nice, but only when they don't get the way of basic functionality.

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Old Feb 25, 2010, 03:36 PM   #129
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iTunes has already done that for me when 'consolidating'. I just want to put the albums 'back together' again, if you see what I mean.



Will do, cheers.

PS - I apologise for any crossness inherent in my post. To find I'd waited a whole day for the update to finish, only to find my library scattered to the four sectors of my hard-drive was, I'm sure you can all understand, more than a tad frustrating...
When I had such troubles, what I did was figure out criteria iTunes used, and made changes within the "Get Info" of the songs in question. When I made those changes, iTunes moved the files. (I have "keep iTunes media folder organized" checked).

The interesting thing was when I had an album on my work XP computer that didn't work the same as on my home Mac. I traced it down to a Windows file name/path size limit.
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Old Feb 25, 2010, 04:01 PM   #130
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So to merge, use "ditto" or "cp -rp" from terminal or a 3rd party utility?
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Old Feb 25, 2010, 06:54 PM   #131
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I don't think the folks who so spiritedly advocate that a 'merge' should be Finder's default behavior fully appreciate (understand) how messy things can turn out under non-ideal circumstances. I.e., a simple merge is useful when only new or newer files are encountered. Though that scenario does occur at times in user-land, the likelihood is far greater that some potential source directory may contain renamed, reorganized (moved), or "removed" items. In those cases, a basic merge action — which might seem so smart on occasion — suddenly becomes brain-dead.

I.e., folder merging as embodied in Explorer is in fact a one-trick-pony whose inclusion in a file-manager like Finder is not warranted on actual usefulness, but rather on habits (and thus expectations) of the Windows crowd. Somehow the Mac-using world -- with its fair share of engineers, musicians and all sorts of other users -- has managed to "survive" for decades without that feature being available (for every single drag-n-drop).

This "issue" has been kicked around at almost every Mac-oriented website at one time or another. Here are two discussions which might be helpful to switchers:FWIW, i'd recommend ChronoSync for the GUI and rsync for the CLI... since both utilities offer a preview capability whereby the user can see what will happen before the fact (as well as manage all manner of potential conflicts).
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Old Feb 25, 2010, 07:04 PM   #132
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^^ Yes, people have lived without it, but i've never met anyone who was happy that Finder doesnt have basic features Explorer has. People seem to defend Finder's lack of progression by spewing out "its always been that way." Whether its been that way or not doesnt mean anything other than that Apple doesnt feel like updating Finder for whatever stupid reason they may have.

It can be "kicked around" until the end of time, the issue can be resolved with a simple "merger folders" button next to "replace" and "cancel"
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Old Feb 25, 2010, 10:59 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by NoSmokingBandit View Post
^^ Yes, people have lived without it, but i've never met anyone who was happy that Finder doesnt have basic features Explorer has. People seem to defend Finder's lack of progression by spewing out "its always been that way." Whether its been that way or not doesnt mean anything other than that Apple doesnt feel like updating Finder for whatever stupid reason they may have.
After you /study/ the reasoning presented in those threads you might comprehend the matter in a different light. What some call a "basic feature" is not so basic... rather, seasoned (Windows) users have become accustomed to it to the point they believe it's actually needed. That particular function (for anything other than a backup or folder-syncing scenario) is so seldom used, it has no place in day-to-day dorking around with the filesystem. [if someone is finding that need frequently, i would like to examine their workflow... as no doubt a utility would better serve those needs.]


Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSmokingBandit View Post
It can be "kicked around" until the end of time, the issue can be resolved with a simple "merger folders" button next to "replace" and "cancel"
It isn't an issue and therefore needs no resolution. Further complicating Finder's interface unnecessarily just to placate a few switchers does not a friendly (nor ingenious) GUI make.

Does Finder have faults? Yes (many).
Is the lack of a 'merge' one of them? No.
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Old Feb 25, 2010, 11:45 PM   #134
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Adding one button can hardly be considered "cluttered." And its not just to make switchers happy, its a feature that would make life easier for all users. Though i guess that doesnt matter when Apple has a large user base that would buy Macs and OSX even if it shipped with Finder 7.0 and would defend Apple's choice to use it.

"But Finder 7.0 is so much simpler!!! Buttons confuse me!"
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Old Mar 8, 2010, 05:57 PM   #135
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Just an idea

Philosophies on how to handle files apart, I think a good solution would be to move everything non-exact-duplicate to the same folder, and leave every duplicate behind. No confirmation is needed in this case, and I can easily check the duplicates later. If it's copying merge, then the target folder will contain everything, and the source will be rather untouched. Duplicate-check is just on the file name. Leave any more complicated thing to third parties.

For more on this subject, you may want to check: http://superuser.com/questions/11762...copying-on-mac
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Old Apr 20, 2010, 01:30 AM   #136
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For god sake, this stupid behavior is beyond my understanding...
safety of data first, how the hell anybody could think of deleting
content of folder without any ability to recover it from the trash?!!!!
it's not just stupid, it's fanatically stupid, I can't believe there is still
discussion about it....

I move folder "A" that has 2 subfolders to the Desktop. that already
has folder "A" having 1000 subfolders AND, you gonna love it ...
system without any problems deletes 1000 folders, without moving
them into the trash?!!!! are you crazy at apple? I mean are you at war
with your mental health? really .... why the f... it should be this way?
it's only incredibly dumb person should insist on such things,
I can't believe it's happening, wake me up !!!!!!
... is there anyone on the planet that , could argue that one little yes/no
separates me from loosing such huge amount of data, that could contain
years of work? and for what? for some idiot in apple that believes
that this particular functionality is smarter then the whole world ???

there is trash, for every deleting operaiont, IT MUST BE FOR ALL
DELETING OPERATIONS OTHERWISE THERE IS NO!
NO! NO! and NO! MEANING FOR IT

ubelievable ...

Some one has to measure effect of each action, mess in one foler
it's of course a problem, BUT loosing whole folder without recovery,
is FU... ING BIGGER PROBLEM...

stupid apple ...
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Old Apr 20, 2010, 10:25 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by rmddail View Post
is there anyone on the planet that , could argue that one little yes/no separates me from loosing such huge amount of data, that could contain years of work?
Yes. [actually, the choice is Stop or Replace]

A single file is also a container, which houses objects such as "words" and "images"... perhaps thousands of them, possibly representing years of work. Shall we propose a similar argument for files then? I.e., all differing words and images should be placed in the trash when replacing one file with another? [let me guess: that sounds stupid, right?]

There is much more to this than meets the eye, but none of it is new. It has been this way for years. If the situation was truly as stupid as some believe, then many (many!) more users would be constantly complaining... and Apple would have "fixed the problem" a long (long!) time ago.
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Old Apr 20, 2010, 11:57 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Hal Itosis View Post
Yes. [actually, the choice is Stop or Replace]

A single file is also a container, which houses objects such as "words" and "images"... perhaps thousands of them, possibly representing years of work. Shall we propose a similar argument for files then? I.e., all differing words and images should be placed in the trash when replacing one file with another? [let me guess: that sounds stupid, right?]
Comparing a file with a container is stupid. A folder is a container, a file is a file. It's always been this way. Just give it up and admit that Finder is inferior to Windows Explorer in many ways.

Quote:
There is much more to this than meets the eye, but none of it is new. It has been this way for years. If the situation was truly as stupid as some believe, then many (many!) more users would be constantly complaining... and Apple would have "fixed the problem" a long (long!) time ago.
Before Snow Leopard you would have probably said the same thing about the inability to return deleted items from the trash back to their original folders. It took Apple YEARS to implement this simple feature.

Many people are complaining about Finder, but Apple isn't known for actually listening to customers.

I don't work with complicated folder structures myself, so this problem doesn't affect me. But that doesn't mean I don't recognize it as a shortcoming.
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Old Apr 20, 2010, 12:36 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Erwin-Br View Post
Comparing a file with a container is stupid. A folder is a container, a file is a file.
You don't know much about files, do you? Database files, spreadsheet files, word processing files, financial files... those aren't containers???

And BTW, you do realize that a "folder" is just a (directory) file... right?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Erwin-Br View Post
Just give it up and admit that Finder is inferior to Windows Explorer in many ways.
Give up what? I stand nothing to lose and you stand nothing to gain.
You need to understand how things work and you'll have no problem.
That's all there is to it. [i.e., no one here is going to "win" anything.]

Start learning anytime you prefer (before or after losing data... it's your choice).
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Old Apr 20, 2010, 01:22 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by rmddail View Post
...

ubelievable ...

Some one has to measure effect of each action, mess in one foler
it's of course a problem, BUT loosing whole folder without recovery,
is FU... ING BIGGER PROBLEM...

stupid apple ...
Not unbelievable and not stupid. The fact that you don't understand the Macintosh notwithstanding. The Mac is a consistent and well-designed metaphor. You are used to Windows, which is anything but well-designed and is most certainly not consistent. Microsoft developed workarounds for many of its bad design decisions. You have grown to rely on those workarounds.

You have options:
  • You may take the time to learn the Mac.
  • You may continue to bitch and moan about Apple's stupidity.
  • You may return to Windows where you are more comfortable.
The choice is yours.
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Old Apr 20, 2010, 02:20 PM   #141
rmddail
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Originally Posted by MisterMe View Post
Not unbelievable and not stupid.
Well, go and explain that to those who lost their entire music library
stored in folder "music" by accidentally moving there some other folder
"music" from desktop containing few articles from yesterday...
or to those who didn't know about that effect and wanted to put their
projects from last year in the same folder that contained all projects from
previous years, or love letters, or pictures that stored memory of those
who died already ....
and for sake of what we have this risks? for faster replace folder?
it is so essential? it's even not worth talking for those who lost
essential data for the first time, and yes may be they come from windows
and as you well know there are many people used it and it's the fact
that should must and have to be taken into account, without exxagerations,
but for god sake, put it in the trash ... make it reversible, do something
IT IS VERY VERY VERY STUPID APPLE IN THAT ...
it is faster to put soup in the pocket of jacket, but you never do it, because
it could ruin whole jacket, it is faster to leave gas tank opened, but you never
do it because it can blow up the whole thing .. examples are endless
so please ... the fact it made by apple doesn't mean it's saint,
Toyota recall cars, when they have threat found in it ...
Quote:
The fact that you don't understand the Macintosh notwithstanding. The Mac is a consistent and well-designed metaphor.
it is arguable, but not here I believe as it's has nothing
to do with specific problem, and yes it appears as not consistent even
with that metaphor and more importantly with the life ...
Quote:
You are used to Windows ...
Did you see word windows in my post anywhere except your own mind?
did I talked about microsoft or what they do?
Please do not drug me into, those holly wars between mac and windows,
I am out of it and do not want to go in ... it has nothing to do with that ...
if it's not like in windows it is smart? NOT necessary

Quote:
You have options: ...
Oh really? Now you tell me what options I have?
Like Apple stupid behavior is not discussable? Like no way it could be
bad? I think they deserve even punishment for such care about user's data...
It's not consistent with anything, otherwise you would've login as root, to
be able destroying as much as possible with one command ...

I think you also have some options, you can deny reality and you can
listen a bit, would not hurt ...

Quote:
The choice of yours.
but the list was yours .... I think you noticed ...
I of course would have a wonderful time now for learning Mac
spending it on restoring data collected during half of the year ...

and you know I've learned this functionality very well ...
like really well...
and I also learned very well that APPLE IS STUPID and his
STUPIDITY is well protected by religious fanatics,
and I also learned that that YOU SHOULD NEVER RELY ON APPLE,
FOR SERIOUS TASKS< As they could surprise you very nicely ...

and you know if to discharge 100 volts each time I make a small mistake,
I will learn even faster this wonderful metaphor ...
thanks a lot for understanding ...
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Old Apr 20, 2010, 02:25 PM   #142
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And yet.. Mac OS users for the past 20+ years have managed to not have a Merge feature in the Finder without too much of a problem?
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Old Apr 20, 2010, 03:05 PM   #143
rmddail
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Originally Posted by Hal Itosis View Post
Yes. [actually, the choice is Stop or Replace]
Oh please, you are perfectly understanding that the catch is in interpreting
word Replace, where it also could mean: Replace those things that are
the same ... and "things", could mean each of them

Quote:
A single file is also a container, which houses objects such as "words" and "images"...
Since the file system doesn't operate with words, houses and so on ...
file is not a container of other file system objects, while folder is ...
file is not a container from file operations point of view .. it appears as one
thing in the file system and it treated as one thing ... while folder is a
container of other files system objects and it't not treated by file
system as one thing. File system cannot operate with words, but it
can operate with files and folders and that's why folder is a container
from files system point of view ...
Operations on folders could be so, treated as operation with whole folder and could be ALSO treated as operation with list of things, this duality is
natural and depends of how user look at it, and so the control should
belong to him as well ... but at least DO NOT ERASE EVERYTHING if
it's not coincide by the chance ... It is IRRESPONSIBLE and Yes, STUPID
FOR APPLE.
Quote:
[let me guess: that sounds stupid, right?]
Right, it is, because of the explanation above...

Quote:
There is much more to this than meets the eye, but none of it is new. It has been this way for years. If the situation was truly as stupid as some believe, then many (many!) more users would be constantly complaining... and Apple would have "fixed the problem" a long (long!) time ago.
So it was STUPID for many years, and now people do
complain, and also times are changing so do basic requirements,
especially when it comes to safety of data ...
For many years, people stored their pictures right next to the computer ... on the paper, so the music, books and memories ... And I would really recommend them continue doing so, as with such surprises system is unreliable ...
Consistency is good, but it is only one step away from stupidity, and this
step made there bravely with some applauds, as I see ...
And yes APPLE DOES KNOWN FOR IGNORING COMPLAINS for years...

Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow View Post
And yet.. Mac OS users for the past 20+ years have managed to not have a Merge feature in the Finder without too much of a problem?
I don't know, I managed not to use Mac for 20+ years, does it means
anything?
It is not lack of Merge function we miss so much, it is Erase function, we
so afraid ...

Last edited by yellow; Apr 20, 2010 at 03:30 PM. Reason: Merged Contiguous Posts
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Old Apr 20, 2010, 03:30 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by rmddail View Post
It is not lack of Merge function we miss so much, it is Erase function, we so afraid ...
Well, this isn't the right thread for rants about lack of decent recovery options. This thread is about the lack of merge vs replace.
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Old Apr 20, 2010, 03:34 PM   #145
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I have a simpler explanation about this whole thing ...

I think nearly 20 years ago, some guy was writing a code ...
and was lazy or in rush at the moment ... so he said ...
ok let's wipe everything first and put another, above ...
it's easier to implement ..., and we'll do it properly later ...
and if some will complain we always could say,
folder is a whole thing, so what did you expect??
and what do you want now ...

that's it ...

but it called bug guys and it IS STUPID right now ...
it's one of those unfinished things, that could be really well
protected with arguments ...
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Old Apr 20, 2010, 08:17 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by rmddail View Post
I have a simpler explanation about this whole thing ...

I think nearly 20 years ago, some guy was writing a code ...
and was lazy or in rush at the moment ... so he said ...
ok let's wipe everything first and put another, above ...
it's easier to implement ..., and we'll do it properly later ...
and if some will complain we always could say,
folder is a whole thing, so what did you expect??
and what do you want now ...

that's it ...

but it called bug guys and it IS STUPID right now ...
it's one of those unfinished things, that could be really well
protected with arguments ...
It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools. My young Windows-using friend, calm down. You made a mistake. Man up. Get over it. All is not lost. There are several file recovery utilities available for the Mac that will allow you to recover the files that you deleted. You can purchase it online and download it within a few minutes.
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Old Apr 20, 2010, 10:24 PM   #147
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The Mac is a consistent and well-designed metaphor.
No, and i'll explain why.

If you have a file cabinet and have two "S" folders you wouldnt just toss out the old one, completely ignoring its contents. You'd look to see if there is anything in the old folder that doesnt have a newer version in the new folder, then merge them, by hand, before tossing out the outdated papers and documents. Luckily we have computers that can compare folders and their contents much more quickly than we can, but only if the OS takes into consideration how people in the real world manage files.

One thing that always bugged me about the so-called "elegant" (if i may) desktop metaphor is the complete stupidity of the Trash. Visually there is one trash can in my dock. At my desk there is physically one trash can. Yet if i delete something from a thumb drive then remove it the trashed files stay with it. If i put my briefcase on my desk, throw something out, then take my briefcase back to work i dont find the trashed items in a hidden pocket under everything, still taking up space. If OSX was indeed "consistent and well-designed" it would leave items in the trash on the desktop instead of leaving the trash on the drive it was erased from. Trash from home doesnt magically pop into the trash can at work when i move my briefcase there.

OSX, much like Windows, has certain moments where it accurately reflects a physical desktop but it fails miserably at other times.
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Old Apr 20, 2010, 10:40 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by yellow View Post
Well, this isn't the right thread for rants about lack of decent recovery options. This thread is about the lack of merge vs replace.
Some people consider folder as set of things and not as the whole,
this rises different expectations about replace functionality,
it has nothing to do with recovery or related topics...
Putting it this way removes the very source of discussion from the threat dedicated
to the topic ...

Why would you rise the merge issue at all, if you consider
folder as one thing ... merge what? folder is a folder. end of the story.

And if folder is a set of things, then replace should also treat items
of this set individually ...
The point is :
Since both perceptions of the folder are there , they will continue be there,
as it is very natural,
and it's loosing time to discuss which of them right, both are right!
And since they are both there and it depend on user, then disrespect to one type of
the users would inevitably result in loss of essential data for those users, to which
I see no justification.
and I think ignoring duality nature of the folder, proved by the very presence of that
threat, is really stupid for apple.
I very much hope you understand ...

Last edited by rmddail; Apr 20, 2010 at 11:35 PM.
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Old Apr 20, 2010, 11:24 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by MisterMe View Post
It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools.
It is a poor tool if it's blamed ... while it costs much more, and so expectations are higher ... finder is not a freeware, so it should hold responsibilities toward customers ...

Quote:
My young Windows-using friend, calm down ...
Did you by any chance have noticed my previous answer to you where I expressed all I wanted to say about windows?

Quote:
You made a mistake. Man up. Get over it.
sorry ... I didn't ... Midnight commander would NOT erase the content of folder,
it will put items in it ... and I think nobody will, who has some respect toward people, it's just there is no such benefits, that make it worth doing so, especially in comparison to such enormous risks of loosing data.
Man up, Mac os x is not a bible ... or it is? I mean X means ten, so there will be XI some day, no?
Quote:
All is not lost. There are several file recovery utilities available for the Mac that will allow you to recover the files that you deleted. You can purchase it online and download it within a few minutes.
I did not delete them, it's this "lovely" system did !
so purchase should be done by them, or their protectors like you ... I do not mind if you buy me one of them ...

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Old Apr 21, 2010, 12:00 AM   #150
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So it was STUPID for many years, and now people do complain,
I don't want to get into a heavy shootout at the moment, but let me just say again that this discussion is not new... it may be renewed perhaps, since many more users are switching from Windows/Explorer these days. And I totally understand the points you're making, but they have been made for a long time now, in many places... and they simply don't matter as much as you think they do. [i put some links in my first post (a few months back), which lead to other threads similar to this one.]

There is no "undo" in Unix either. The OS doesn't try to second guess the user. You enter rm -rf /path/to/folder and your bidding gets done, no questions asked. Welcome to the big leagues. [got backup?]

I highly recommend those links for reading excellent arguments both ways... since i don't feel like repeating stuff (or hearing stuff repeated) which has all been said (and heard) a hundred times before.
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