Apple Care Over? Sorry bud...

[umlaaat]

I'm a music producer who heavily relies on my G5 Quad 2.5 to mix, produce, record, arrange and sketch ideas.
Most of my day is taken up doing the above, and if not then I'm with my kids and/or taking care of family/home issues.
I'm a straight up dude, who's very thankful to be able to live out his dreams and have an amazing family to support me.

I take care of all my gear. This is my livelihood, I have to. I routinely dust out my machines, update my OS, maintain integrity of drives, keep unnecessary stuff off, etc..

Up until 6 days ago, I was in my zone, working on different projects when out of nowhere, my mac just died.
I tried every single thing i could think of and research. Including: swapping out drives, starting via firewire target disk mode, boot from dvd, swap out the 3v battery for a new one, swapped out ram, reseated video card, pmu reset button, safe boot, reset nvram, pram, spam, ham... even applied a hair dryer to the logic board (advice of someone), all of which did nothing.

Beyond confused and frustrated, i googled for about 5 hours and came upon board after board of people going thru the same thing. Their issues matched mine, mostly verbatim. And it turned out the G5 logic board was the culprit. Most of the people with this issue were running a dual, but there were a lot with quads like mine.

I'm going to quote someone on forums.macworld.com:

After reading the IBM techdoc, having another company do the r/r/r process might not be such a good idea.
The IBM doc explains that there was an enhanced process used for this that a 3rd party might not be aware of or capable of.

This could result in rapid degredation of the reworked connections if the underfill isn't performed along with the use of the right solder medium.

The G5 chip simply can't maintain integrity with standard soldering techniques because the 970 module and the actual G5 card have different thermal stress tolerances.

The document goes so far as to say that without the use of the underfill and the spring load, the life of the machine is a fraction of what it is WITH the underfill and spring load.

The problem is the thermal "cycling".

The G5 chip 'steps down' when you aren't running CPU intensive apps, such as design apps.

So everytime you switch between say firefox and final cut, the chip cycles between high power and reduced power.

Which causes thermal cycling.

This asks the question of what effect the CPU mode option of "highest-reduced" has on your machines tendency to break down from this problem.

If you were to set it to either reduced or highest power and leave it there, then theoretically the CPU won't step up or down and won't be subjected to thermal cycling.

G5's ship with this option set to "automatic" which seems to facilitate the breakdown.

That document makes it glaringly obvious that the stability and integrity of the G5 is a house of cards.

Apple should've went from the G4 directly to intel.

And that information was known prior to the release of the G5.

Apple(in typical apple form) wanted to recoupe all the money they put into the G5's development so they went with it.

I'm not a techie, but this did make sense as to why so many people were having the same problems as I all on the same basic chipset.

I called apple 3 times (so far). All of their responses were the same. You're out of warranty, so you're screwed. They were nice about it tho. But the message was that I could pay btw $900-1300 for a new logic board.

But this is TOTALLY unacceptable. From every point of view.
For me to cough up that kind of money (or any at all) when its the design thats the fault is not right to say the least and something that apple should rectify.

If my 10+ year old G4 went out, I would never call them and expect for them to fix it for free.
If my 15+ year old G3 went out, I would also never call them.

But they BOTH run fine. Daily in fact.

But if my (almost in comparison) brand new G5 thats only 1 year out of warranty DOES go out, and if I had spent TOP dollar for it, and if its a design flaw, then HELL YES, they should fix it.

This is regardless of the work that I'm missing out on (rather sludging by with my powerbook on).

[Macinposh]

Originally Posted by umlaaat

Dear diary...

I feel sorry that you feel so sorry.


But you do understand that the world doesnt revolve around you,dont you?
As it is allways sad that things break,sometimes even because manufacturing/design has not been up to the highest standards , things do break.
Now you are peeved that your G5 broke.Fine.
That happens to older computers,and even to computers that are not so old.
That it happened to a computer that is about 4 years old,well shite happens,but it is still in withing the products MTBF. Some quads broke withing a year (i know) and some are up and running (i know) and some will be up and running for years to come. Your computer is not amongst them.
I understand you.


But what I dont understand is you whinging as a professional :

I'm a music producer who heavily relies on my G5 Quad 2.5 to mix, produce, record, arrange and sketch ideas....Up until 6 days ago, I was in my zone, working on different projects...
...This is regardless of the work that I'm missing out on (rather sludging by with my powerbook on....

Sir,you have been "working" with you computer now for say,4 years. The computer cost around 4000$ when you bought it. So that has cost you 1000$ /year. 90$/month.
Now.
Are you seriously taking a piss now,that you have not earned 90$/month working with your setup,and thus it has not made it´s ROI?And that is why you are peeved?
Let alone that you have not turned that extra 90$ revenue/month in that time that you could buy a new computer now?


Or.

You have made a damn big mistake as a pro,a professional musician ,you have earned a lot more,but you have forgotten to put money aside for your next investment? And now you are mad at yourself for things crapping out and not being prepared?But instead you lash out on apple and try to blame them for you failings and shortcomings as a businessman?



Mang,your computer crapped on you ,but way before that you had crapped on you own business by not being prepared for the expected.
Expected is that you will need to invest in something, at some point and you need to be prepared for that.Be it a computer,a guitar or a papermill.

Do you think I have a point here?

[seisend]

Your story is really unlucky. I think 900-1300 Dollar is totally overpriced for a G5. What would cost a new Logic Board for a newer Mac Pro 08/09 ?! . If you are totally happy with your Mac, I would buy a new Logic Board. Maybe you'll get one somewhere else for a cheaper price and replace it by yourself or a friend of you?

[gugucom]

It is actually more common for the CPUs to crap out with this fault. The upside of it is that there are a lot of broken G5s for cheap on the market. So get yourself one identical model with dead CPUs (progressively fail booting failure) and throw your good CPUs in it. You get away with 200 bucks, 1h of work and another hour of reading the manual.

You could also fix the messy thread title, so that people know what this is about.

[California]

A friend of mine with a 2.0ghz late 2005 Powermac G5 thought his computer died, too.

(His machine is the same line up as the Quad).

Uh. It was just that one of the processors had become unseated.

On these boards, many of us have given the advice to make sure your processor is set to "HIGHEST".

Make sure the infamous Chinese applied thermal paste on the G5 is not the culprit here before you toss out your Quad.

Check to make sure the processor is seated correctly.

Oh, the friend with the 2.0ghz Dual Core?

It tipped over slightly on the way to the Apple Cert. Tech and the processor reseated itself.

Cost him 50 bucks for them to tell him the above as it ran fine -- and they checked to make sure the processor was back in tight.

[JoelKelly]

That sucks dude.

Silly thing is, for that money... you could get yourself a brand new 20" iMac, and just dual run the display with the one you used on your mac pro. If I were you, I'd just do that, it's more powerful than a G5 (technically). Comes with SL.

Your choice, but that's my 2 cents.

[chrono1081]

Even though its expensive this is why I have multiple computers.

I have my desktop which is my work horse and my high powered laptop that can share the workload or fill in for in the crappy event my desktop may go.

Then my netbook for travel


In your case I do have to side with Apple, the computer is well out of warranty, manufacturing flaw or not from IBM. Its just not possible for a company to support so many legacy machines because things like this will happen and they will die. (I've had my fair share of out of warranty deaths so I can sympathize. One time my HP laptop backlight died one day out of warranty.)

[ScottishCaptain]

I'm sorry.

Is this a post for help, or just another diatribe to try and create some sort of uprising against the tyrannical rule of Apple who apparently enjoys stepping on the little guy?

The G5 machines are known to be spotty at best. Look at the liquid cooling system they strapped ontop of your 970 chips just to keep them from going nuclear. If that isn't any indicator of troubles ahead, I don't know what is.

Frankly, you haven't described zip about your scenario, other then that it stopped working. Does it do /anything/ when you push the power button? Is the front panel board connected properly to the logic board? Are there any LED's that light up (even momentarily) when you press the power button?

In my experience, it's rare for a processor to prevent the logic board from powering up, and likewise a rare event for the logic board to be so far gone that it won't even turn on. It sounds like a power supply issue to me, maybe even brought about by a leak in the liquid cooling system (did you notice any fluid/liquid on the bottom of the unit?).

If that's a Quad 2.5 late '05 model, then the logic board P/N you'd need is 661-3726, which runs at about $950. Apple isn't far off to quote between $1K and $1300, if that includes work, since the entire machine needs to be stripped first.

But again, we have no idea what your issue is, because your post basically constitutes a huge rant at the moment. I'm sure there are people here who would like to help you, but we can't do that, since all we know is that the machine "stopped working".

-SC

[JesterJJZ]

Email your concerns to sjobs@apple.com.

My G5 crapped out on me a few times and then again a few months after my Applecare ran out. I was waiting on parts for a long time for the repair so I blindly sent a lengthy but very polite letter stating my problems and issues with my machine and service. Two days later I got a call from my local Applestore saying they were configuring me a new MacPro to replace my broken G5. Apple is my hero.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=387246

[flatfoot]

Originally Posted by JesterJJZ

Two days later I got a call from my local Applestore saying they were configuring me a new MacPro to replace my broken G5. Apple is my hero.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=387246

Are you serious? They really did that?!

[umlaaat]

Originally Posted by ScottishCaptain

I'm sorry.

Is this a post for help, or just another diatribe to try and create some sort of uprising against the tyrannical rule of Apple who apparently enjoys stepping on the little guy?

The G5 machines are known to be spotty at best. Look at the liquid cooling system they strapped ontop of your 970 chips just to keep them from going nuclear. If that isn't any indicator of troubles ahead, I don't know what is.

Frankly, you haven't described zip about your scenario, other then that it stopped working. Does it do /anything/ when you push the power button? Is the front panel board connected properly to the logic board? Are there any LED's that light up (even momentarily) when you press the power button?

In my experience, it's rare for a processor to prevent the logic board from powering up, and likewise a rare event for the logic board to be so far gone that it won't even turn on. It sounds like a power supply issue to me, maybe even brought about by a leak in the liquid cooling system (did you notice any fluid/liquid on the bottom of the unit?).

If that's a Quad 2.5 late '05 model, then the logic board P/N you'd need is 661-3726, which runs at about $950. Apple isn't far off to quote between $1K and $1300, if that includes work, since the entire machine needs to be stripped first.

But again, we have no idea what your issue is, because your post basically constitutes a huge rant at the moment. I'm sure there are people here who would like to help you, but we can't do that, since all we know is that the machine "stopped working".

-SC

this is not a "diatribe". I dont have time for that. I'm a full time musician and father/husband who barely has time to see his friends.
I dont think apple enjoys stepping on the little guy, i think they enjoy their returns that are based on word or mouth, aesthetics and near genius marketing.

and theres nothing wrong with that in the least. in fact, i applaud the ways they go about making $. they should be studied in universities all around the world.
but they need to fix what is apparently a design flaw in their system.
I dont think its a coincidence that the same problem is happening to hundreds if not thousands of people at the same relative time.
Apple doesn't jump on it because it does not pose a health risk (G5's mysteriously blowing the F up) and yes, it affects a minority of users.
so, in order to save face they sweep it under the rug.

"G5's are known to be spotty at best" - was this when they first came out or years after the fact?
I'd say the latter.
Were there any other choices for media based professionals such as myself during the G5 heyday?
pcs were never an option.


my G5 does not boot no matter what i do. the front panel light does light up and i get the chime maybe 90% of the time. Theres a red LED that lights up for 1 second when the power button is pushed.
The screen shows the apple logo and wheel spins for about 15-20 seconds then freezes. 30-40 seconds after that, the fans spin into overdrive
thats all it does.

there is no liquid leak at the bottom of the unit.

how can you tell if the front panel board is connected to the logic board?

[gugucom]

One CPU dying on you is by far the most common cause of the problem you describe. Before you replace the logic board get yourself a replacement CPU which is ok. Then swap the CPUs around until you have found the bad one. It is likely only one. Unfortunately all G5 PMs above 1,8 GHz cannot run on one CPU so they fail to boot.

Here in Europe I would expect to be able to pick up a good CPU for around 150$ on Ebay. You obviously need patience because it can take weeks until a fitting offer goes out. There are also guys who have specialized on such problems. Try to find one in your country. If he has a spare CPU for testing you can nail the bad one down for sure.

[zepharus]

Originally Posted by Macinposh

I feel sorry that you feel so sorry.


But you do understand that the world doesnt revolve around you,dont you?
As it is allways sad that things break,sometimes even because manufacturing/design has not been up to the highest standards , things do break.
Now you are peeved that your G5 broke.Fine.
That happens to older computers,and even to computers that are not so old.
That it happened to a computer that is about 4 years old,well shite happens,but it is still in withing the products MTBF. Some quads broke withing a year (i know) and some are up and running (i know) and some will be up and running for years to come. Your computer is not amongst them.
I understand you.


But what I dont understand is you whinging as a professional :




Sir,you have been "working" with you computer now for say,4 years. The computer cost around 4000$ when you bought it. So that has cost you 1000$ /year. 90$/month.
Now.
Are you seriously taking a piss now,that you have not earned 90$/month working with your setup,and thus it has not made it´s ROI?And that is why you are peeved?
Let alone that you have not turned that extra 90$ revenue/month in that time that you could buy a new computer now?


Or.

You have made a damn big mistake as a pro,a professional musician ,you have earned a lot more,but you have forgotten to put money aside for your next investment? And now you are mad at yourself for things crapping out and not being prepared?But instead you lash out on apple and try to blame them for you failings and shortcomings as a businessman?



Mang,your computer crapped on you ,but way before that you had crapped on you own business by not being prepared for the expected.
Expected is that you will need to invest in something, at some point and you need to be prepared for that.Be it a computer,a guitar or a papermill.

Do you think I have a point here?

I agree, this dude comes off as a real whine ass. It is OUT OF WARRANTY, get over it. It sucks but then again so does life..

[Darth.Titan]

Have you attempted a PRAM reset? (Option-Command-P-R at boot, hold down until it's chimed 3-4 times)
Can you boot to your install CD?

If it's getting as far as the grey Apple screen before dying it seems like there's some hope that it's just a software problem.

[Dr.Pants]

You might also have a power supply issue.

It certainly SEEMS fixable as long as it is starting. Try what Darth Titan said (NVRAM reset and launch CD) first.

EDIT - I see you have done that already

What leads me to say power supply issue is that if the processors are seated correctly and something is amiss, then it *could* be the power supply, as it the only thing I can imagine working funky and the machine can still POST. You may also have a problem on the logic board involving something corroding off (like a transistor), so I can see where your friend was trying to help out that way with a hairdryer.... But this is a G5, not a 360.

[umlaaat]

Originally Posted by Dr.Pants

You might also have a power supply issue.

It certainly SEEMS fixable as long as it is starting. Try what Darth Titan said (NVRAM reset and launch CD) first.

EDIT - I see you have done that already

What leads me to say power supply issue is that if the processors are seated correctly and something is amiss, then it *could* be the power supply, as it the only thing I can imagine working funky and the machine can still POST. You may also have a problem on the logic board involving something corroding off (like a transistor), so I can see where your friend was trying to help out that way with a hairdryer.... But this is a G5, not a 360.

if it is a power supply problem, then wouldn't it not boot at all? as in pushing the power switch does nothing?

Is there a way to replace the processors myself (someone with little mac hardware experience)?

[AZREOSpecialist]

DEFINITELY email sjobs@apple.com and here's why...

I bought my Power Mac dual G5 2.5 GHz in 2004. It worked great for two years, I did not have any extended AppleCare or anything else. Late 2007 the unit just died one day when I powered it up. I took it to a local Mac repair facility (before we had Apple stores here) who said it was the liquid cooling system that leaked and fried one or both G5 CPUs and the power supply. Total cost of repair: $1,475.

I sent an email to sjobs@apple.com thinking nothing would come of it. I was honest and said that I depend on my Power Mac for my livelihood and that I expected more from an Apple product that cost me so much money. The next day I got a phone call from Steve Jobs' executive office informing me that they contacted the repair vendor and arranged for payment! Apple paid for the repair even though I was two years past the manufacturer's warranty.

I empathize with your situation. Ignore those people posting above who have nothing better to do than criticize you for posting your experience and asking for some help or suggestions. This forum is for helping people, not for putting them down for sharing their issues with us. Perhaps sharing my experience might give you an idea on what to do in your case.

I certainly wish you the best of luck!

[gugucom]

Originally Posted by umlaaat

Is there a way to replace the processors myself (someone with little mac hardware experience)?

Get the service manual. If you have no access send me a PM and I send you a download address. If it is published the limited 10x download is too quickly gone.

[bigbird]

I sympathize, but you've worked the G5 hard for 4 years and it has never let you down.
You don't know exactly why your G5 crapped out. Before complaining, find out exactly the problem. Maybe it's a cheap fix, maybe it isn't.
If it is a non cost effective repair, bite the bullet and replace the G5 with something in your budget. That may be a refurb Mac Pro from Apple, a used Mac Pro from a dealer, eBay, or privately, or a brand new machine.
But don't expect Apple to pick up any ball here. You had Applecare, it's over, and your machine now doesn't work. Apple assumes no responsibility past Applecare. If the G5 were a fire or safety hazard and there was a liability issue on Apple's part, you can bet they would do something for you.
Face it. Your G5 has worn out. Fix it or replace it. Sorry for your loss.

[goMac]

Moral of the story: Old computers break, they don't get fixed for free.

What? You bought 3 year AppleCare. Did you assume they'd fix it after 4 years even though you specifically bought a 3 year plan? AppleCare specifically says it is for covering manufacturing defects 3 years out from purchase. It does not cover manufacturing defects 4 years out from purchase.

Why do some people feel so entitled? Several posters offered great alternatives. Buy replacement parts yourself, buy a used G5, or buy a new machine. Computers have a shelf life, they don't last forever. I tell my parents after four years just to expect the computer to die at any time, and usually I'm right.

[umlaaat]

rather than answer the folks who have either the disposable income to buy a $3K+ machine every 3.5 years or those who akin apple to their respective gods, i will say that if I am paying TOP dollar for something, I expect it not to crap out shortly after the "expiration" date.
Even if I did have that kind of income, its an issue with principle.

If i took my G5 snorkeling in the Bahamas and then wondered why it doesn't boot, i would understand the intelligent replies. If (as i said before) my computer was 12 years old and it wouldn't boot, I would eat it without skipping a beat.
If it cost $150, that sucks, but ok..
But to pay $1300 is totally unacceptable from a company that has a large part of their gross profits from media related fields.


Maybe your computer does not have the problems mine does. If it did, I'm sure you would be singing a different tune.
Maybe if it did, you would roll over expose your underside and tell apple to "go for it"...

But I'm not.


anywho,


to gugucom:

i definitely appreciate the offer but I can't seem to be able to PM you. Can you send me a link to mixplus@verizon.net ?

thanks man.

AZERO:

Yes, i am on that. I'm going to email stevie as soon as i fin typing this.

who knows, mebbe apple will restore my faith in large bottom-line-number driven corporations?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by umlaaat

rather than answer the folks who have either the disposable income to buy a $3K+ machine every 3.5 years or those who akin apple to their respective gods, i will say that if I am paying TOP dollar for something, I expect it not to crap out shortly after the "expiration" date.
Even if I did have that kind of income, its an issue with principle.

The question is why you would expect Apple to cover it at all. You bought a 3 year warranty, and computers, no matter how much they cost, all have a shelf life. You paid top dollar for speed, not lifespan.

And honestly, faster computers always die first because of heat problems.

[California]

To the OP

THERE IS AN OPEN REPAIR RECALL ON POWERSUPPLIES FOR QUADS.

SOrry I did not say this before.

Yours undoubtedly qualifies.

[umlaaat]

Originally Posted by California

To the OP

THERE IS AN OPEN REPAIR RECALL ON POWERSUPPLIES FOR QUADS.

SOrry I did not say this before.

Yours undoubtedly qualifies.

hmm.. ok will google this to see what comes up.

thanks for that bit.

but what about logic boards?

would i have the same exact symptoms if it was the power supply vs. the board?

edit: Just researched it and my ser # G8548... is not covered.. also dont think its the power supply

Originally Posted by goMac

The question is why you would expect Apple to cover it at all. You bought a 3 year warranty, and computers, no matter how much they cost, all have a shelf life. You paid top dollar for speed, not lifespan.

And honestly, faster computers always die first because of heat problems.

say i sell you a car. a fast car.

its great, you know. rich calfskin interior, 1,000 year old brazilian wood grain... super fast to boot.


but suddenly, one day it stops running. not so fast anymore.

unfortunately for you, you're outside of your waranteee..

you come to me, keys in hand and say "um, dude, wtf?"

and I'm super polite, but tell you, "sure was fast while you had it, huh?"

[BrianKonarsMac]

Originally Posted by umlaaat

say i sell you a car. a fast car.

its great, you know. rich calfskin interior, 1,000 year old brazilian wood grain... super fast to boot.


but suddenly, one day it stops running. not so fast anymore.

unfortunately for you, you're outside of your waranteee..

you come to me, keys in hand and say "um, dude, wtf?"

and I'm super polite, but tell you, "sure was fast while you had it, huh?"

What?

So you're saying if you bought a car, and the warranty expired, then something broke... you'd still expect the car manufacturer to honor the warranty? I wish I lived in this world.

My computer from 2001 died, it was out of warranty... I didn't expect them to fix it, I bought a new one. I understand your frustrated and upset, I would be too if my computer died - I'd actually be more upset about potentially losing data - but this is pretty standard stuff. Try the sjobs@apple.com route if you're so inclined, otherwise it sounds like it's time for a new machine.