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Old Oct 29, 2012, 12:33 PM   #51
spinedoc77
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Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
Your story is a niche story, Spinedoc. Cuz consumers, you know, Apple, Magic, one solution to all problems. Microsoft will fail because liptstick on a pig. They just don't get it. :blank thousand yard stare:
What does that mean? I have no idea what you are trying to say, you sound like a caveman lol, me Apple, me win...

Microsoft won't fail because this isn't a football game. Let's discuss the pros and cons of each ecosystem and strategy instead of grunting ... Apple ugh win.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 12:36 PM   #52
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That's kinda what I was going for. I was making fun of Big Feet Dude for repeating the same tired phrases most people throw out when they go on an anti-MS tirade. :P
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 12:41 PM   #53
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Microsoft strategy is sound, it's just that their execution is terrible. Just like the desktop to laptop revolution years ago we are now in a laptop to tablet revolution. Having a familiar OS like Windows will propel users into the tablet world much sooner, if we had iOS on laptops what would the world be like today.

With that said MS has put up some serious obstacles in its own way, it's a shame because they have a real chance of failing because of these issues which are obvious to everyone else except Microsoft. RT/Pro fragmentation and consumer confusion, very bad and will give a lot of consumers a bad taste. RT should have never seen the light of day, I'm using WinPro on an Atom processor and I'm seeing all day battery life with no compromises, but still have a full Win8 OS setup. MS should have released ONLY windows 8 pro, leaving RT on their phones only.

The other bad gamble was on the OS. I'm a huge MS fanboy, but even I have to admit they are way too fragmented and directionless with Windows 8. They managed to both ostracize the business side, and confuse the consumer side at the same time. What they are doing with Win8 is awesome in idea, but execution is not there and it's going to hurt them.

I still think there will be quite a lot of consumers who go for the Atom full Windows units. There is only so much time before people realize they don't have a real OS in the ipad, it will work for many people and the ipad will continue to sell a ton, but there will also be many consumers who need something more and hopefully MS will wake up and figure out what they are doing wrong.
I won't disagree with you on the part about their strategy being sound. But as you've already said (and I totally agree), their execution of this strategy is terrible. They have lost their way. Totally. And lost MOST consumers along the way as well.

Where Microsoft can succeed is where they often do already...in corporations. There is no viable substitute for Windows (pick your flavor) for extremely large scale enterprises. Fortune 100 if you will. And all those users will often pick up a personal computing device to match their work OS. However, with more and more corporate citizens being issued laptops (I can't remember the last time I saw a desktop on a persons actual desk at the office), this effectively cannibalized Microsoft's past strategy of "sneaking the OS home" via the corporate users. People just literally take their laptops home with them now. And at home, they have all their preferred widgets and gizmo's (increasingly Apple products). I work cross-platform all the time and don't even carry a laptop that much anymore....just grab the closest one to me. Dropbox ensures I'm always current for version control purposes. And I'm betting from looking at all those other users that do likewise that even taking the work-issued Windows PC is a dying habit.

This is exactly why corporations have been adopting scores of iOS and Android devices while forcing RIM into oblivion. Users all but DEMANDED it, often starting with the CEO. How many users do you think will push their Win RT or Win Pro tablets onto corporate IT? Well, hopefully not an issue as they should "just work" if they are Windows devices, right? Well certainly not true for RT as we both know. So that line is doomed to fail. But iPads? Sure, corporate IT now supports those!

The world has changed. Drastically. Microsoft, unfortunately, has not.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 12:44 PM   #54
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That's kinda what I was going for. I was making fun of Big Feet Dude for repeating the same tired phrases most people throw out when they go on an anti-MS tirade. :P
Ahh Lol my bad then, you did a great job!!
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 12:48 PM   #55
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I won't disagree with you on the part about their strategy being sound. But as you've already said (and I totally agree), their execution of this strategy is terrible. They have lost their way. Totally. And lost MOST consumers along the way as well.
Yeah? And how have they lost their way exactly? Because they didn't offer up a simplified, exclusively consumer oriented tablet solution like Apple does? That worked for Apple, and worked well, but it's not the only path there is to follow if you want to create a compelling device.

Truthfully, your argument only works if you assume the buying public are braindead sheep who do nothing but impulse buy. While you can't deny there are some people like that, most everyone in the world does a goodly bit of hard thinking before plunking down over $500+ on something.

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The world has changed. Drastically. Microsoft, unfortunately, has not.
And after all the griping we've seen about how MS has changed the basic formula, and thus ruined it forever, we've got you saying they haven't changed enough. I tell you, there just ain't pleasing some people.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 12:49 PM   #56
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I won't disagree with you on the part about their strategy being sound. But as you've already said (and I totally agree), their execution of this strategy is terrible. They have lost their way. Totally. And lost MOST consumers along the way as well.

Where Microsoft can succeed is where they often do already...in corporations. There is no viable substitute for Windows (pick your flavor) for extremely large scale enterprises. Fortune 100 if you will. And all those users will often pick up a personal computing device to match their work OS. However, with more and more corporate citizens being issued laptops (I can't remember the last time I saw a desktop on a persons actual desk at the office), this effectively cannibalized Microsoft's past strategy of "sneaking the OS home" via the corporate users. People just literally take their laptops home with them now. And at home, they have all their preferred widgets and gizmo's (increasingly Apple products). I work cross-platform all the time and don't even carry a laptop that much anymore....just grab the closest one to me. Dropbox ensures I'm always current for version control purposes. And I'm betting from looking at all those other users that do likewise that even taking the work-issued Windows PC is a dying habit.

This is exactly why corporations have been adopting scores of iOS and Android devices while forcing RIM into oblivion. Users all but DEMANDED it, often starting with the CEO. How many users do you think will push their Win RT or Win Pro tablets onto corporate IT? Well, hopefully not an issue as they should "just work" if they are Windows devices, right? Well certainly not true for RT as we both know. So that line is doomed to fail. But iPads? Sure, corporate IT now supports those!

The world has changed. Drastically. Microsoft, unfortunately, has not.
I think a lot of users will push their Win Pro tablets onto corporate IT, a LOT of users. ipad and android tablets were pushed because there was no other alternative, windows tablets were thick, heavy, spat out hot air, had 3 hour battery life and just sucked incredibly, plus Windows 7 and previous also were terrible on a tablet interface. The world has turned, and now we have full windows devices the same size and battery life of the ipads/android tablets. That's why their idea is sound, but as we agree their execution is poor.

As for the whole the ipad "just works" junk, gah I'm so sick of hearing that. I'm sorry but between the multiple iphone 3g, 3gs, 4, 4s, ipad 1,2,3 I've owned they have ALL had their share of problems same as any other hardware device and software OS/programs. I get it, having a row of icons that a monkey can press is appealing to a lot of people, and Apple will always have an audience who will purchase their products. But I think counting Microsoft out as a competitor is a serious mistake, you can bet that Apple is not doing that.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 12:59 PM   #57
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But I think counting Microsoft out as a competitor is a serious mistake, you can bet that Apple is not doing that.
Between Clover Trail Atom processors being surprisingly decent, and Haswell coming sometime next year offering full ultrabook power with ARM like battery life (...or so they claim), Apple does have quite a bit to worry about. They could easily lose the high end tablet and ultrabook market to MS over the next couple of years if they don't offer a compelling alternative to the Surface.

Last edited by Renzatic; Oct 29, 2012 at 01:06 PM.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 11:21 PM   #58
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Umm... Is this a serious question? By your logic, why would anyone buy a MBA?
Ummm...is this a serious answer? The MBA is a full on laptop. The Surface is not. Its an underpowered tablet with a cheap plastic keyboard that costs double what an actual quality laptop costs. So yes, why did you feel the need to pay so much for what many feel is an inferior product, especially compared to a $650 laptop
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 11:32 PM   #59
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Ummm...is this a serious answer? The MBA is a full on laptop. The Surface is not. Its an underpowered tablet with a cheap plastic keyboard that costs double what an actual quality laptop costs. So yes, why did you feel the need to pay so much for what many feel is an inferior product, especially compared to a $650 laptop
It's clear you haven't worked with one. Not sure what makes you think it's underpowered, and the keyboard is actually an impressive piece of engineering.

Clearly you wouldn't buy an iPad either, seeing as how it also costs $599 and that doesn't include a keyboard (made of plastic or any other material).

And the point about the MBA was in direct response to your silly question saying that one could buy a laptop with larger screen and keyboard for the same money... Why would someone pay $999 for a MBA when they could pay a ton less for same said laptop?
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 11:38 PM   #60
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Why would someone pay $999 for a MBA when they could pay a ton less for same said laptop?
Would you mind telling me what laptop runs Mac OSX for a ton less than $999?

My point was, laptops running Windows are very inexpensive. So I was curious why someone would pay so much more for a tablet running the same OS but underpowered and with a smaller screen and inferior keyboard to a laptop priced much less.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 11:43 PM   #61
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Would you mind telling me what laptop runs Mac OSX for a ton less than $999?

My point was, laptops running Windows are very inexpensive. So I was curious why someone would pay so much more for a tablet running the same OS but underpowered and with a smaller screen and inferior keyboard to a laptop priced much less.
Hmm, in that case maybe you should try saying what you mean instead of specifically mentioning only the physical dimensions of the device as you did in your OP. That being said, even what you're saying now doesn't make sense. What Windows laptop with the same specs and dimensions of the MacBook Air costs significantly less than $999? For that matter, what Windows laptop comes anywhere close to .5" thickness and 1.5 lbs that I can get for the same price as an ipad/surface rt?
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 11:45 PM   #62
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Hmm, in that case maybe you should try saying what you mean instead of specifically mentioning only the physical dimensions of the device as you did in your OP. That being said, even what you're saying now doesn't make sense. What Windows laptop with the same specs and dimensions of the MacBook Air costs significantly less than $999? For that matter, what Windows laptop comes anywhere close to .5" thickness and 1.5 lbs that I can get for the same price as an ipad/surface rt?
ok,so you bought it because its thin and light? Thats fine. Just curious
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Old Oct 30, 2012, 12:01 AM   #63
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Would you mind telling me what laptop runs Mac OSX for a ton less than $999?

My point was, laptops running Windows are very inexpensive. So I was curious why someone would pay so much more for a tablet running the same OS but underpowered and with a smaller screen and inferior keyboard to a laptop priced much less.
A used Mac? Any other Intel machine with the same specs as either the Air and MBP and then hacked to illegally run OSX(after all the current Macbook line up is essentially a Wintel machine).

----------

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Hmm, in that case maybe you should try saying what you mean instead of specifically mentioning only the physical dimensions of the device as you did in your OP. That being said, even what you're saying now doesn't make sense. What Windows laptop with the same specs and dimensions of the MacBook Air costs significantly less than $999? For that matter, what Windows laptop comes anywhere close to .5" thickness and 1.5 lbs that I can get for the same price as an ipad/surface rt?
One of the Atom based models(which cost about the same as the Surface RT), with the keyboard dock.
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Old Oct 30, 2012, 12:47 AM   #64
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It's clear you haven't worked with one. Not sure what makes you think it's underpowered
I missed this earlier. What makes me think its underpowered is...

1366x768 148ppi display
1.5ghz Tegra 3 quadcore processor
2gb RAM

Thats quite bad, by far the worst specs of any current high end tablet. Heck, even the Galaxy Note 2 features a 1280x720 267ppi display, 1.6ghz Exynos quadcore processor with 2gb of ram for $300 and thats more a phone than a tablet.
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Old Oct 30, 2012, 05:36 AM   #65
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But specs don't matter!
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Old Oct 30, 2012, 04:22 PM   #66
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I missed this earlier. What makes me think its underpowered is...

1366x768 148ppi display
1.5ghz Tegra 3 quadcore processor
2gb RAM

Thats quite bad, by far the worst specs of any current high end tablet. Heck, even the Galaxy Note 2 features a 1280x720 267ppi display, 1.6ghz Exynos quadcore processor with 2gb of ram for $300 and thats more a phone than a tablet.
I am not here defending the Surface(never ever will), but some general comments. I don't see how screen related to the full performance of the device. If anything lower res screen requires less gpu and cpu usage, which sort of means better performance, no? Also, for all I know the Surface could have better contrast, color gamut and accuracy, and viewability in the sun(thankfully I would never ever know) vs the iPad so to some that's a better feature than a retina display(I would be in that camp).
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:02 AM   #67
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Current market share of the tablet marketplace says you are wrong and Apple's product strategy is right.

And the market isn't going to differentiate Win RT from Win Pro when it comes to the Surface. They will look at it and say "Tablet" and that's about as far as it gets. Microsoft has no idea who they are building the Surface for, not in the least. They are a 'build to specs' company and that story, while it resonates with a minority of the potential users out there, is a niche story.

Great product strategies are all about stories. I highly recommend this current article for a really good perspective on this.

Microsoft has no story. Other than a confusing one.
Where Apple seems to have lost its swagger, MS seems in full blown mode. I'
M really surprised at how the Mini came out....Something is not going right in Cupertino....
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 03:03 PM   #68
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Still same old Windows

I have been using windows 8 since launch on every business computer. I compare it to an old Greek/Roman Statue. When you look from a far it is a beautiful piece of work but closeup up you see the cracks. Already had some blue screen of death and printers are going on and offline all the time. The Major apps I have installed are stable but I'm more worried down the line with smaller companies creating apps which the store might then end up like the android store a lot of buggy software and only some quality.

Once you use it for the first couple of days its cool & unique. When you deal with it everyday you realize why you switched to macs for computers and why the iPad is the iPad.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 08:39 PM   #69
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There arent enough people who will truly use a tablet for productivity. Especially for corporate employees who use proprietary/speciality software that won't run on Windows RT or 8.

The surface is stuck in a very small niche. There just is not much room between a tablet geared towards apps/media, and a proper desktop/laptop PC that's best for productivity. The surface needs to sell millions in order for it to bring in the software and dev support necessary to keep it competitive. I don't see it selling anywhere near that.

Kudos to Microsoft for bringing something fresh to the crowded tablet market. But this is a product very few people need.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 10:34 PM   #70
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Good call - .12" for touch cover makes it .65" Surface vs .68" MBA.

...


You've got to admit you were completely off wrt the weight, with the Surface not being heavier but actually coming in nearly half a pound lighter.
Firstly, based on your specs, it's closer to a third of a pound than half. Secondly, I'm guessing that weight doesn't include the keyboard... again...
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 10:41 PM   #71
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Yes I have tried Surface.

$7000 Windows laptop? Is that even possible? Certainly not comparable to the Surface's specs. You can easily get a cheap junky laptop for less than the price of a Surface w keyboard. Here's an expensive one for $599 as a random example.
Some of the Dell/HP mobile workstations can hit that. It's a limited market, but it basically addresses those who really need a desktop or workstation out in the field somewhere.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 10:43 PM   #72
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It is IMPOSSIBLE on iOS to have more than one program on the screen at the same time, hence, no multi tasking.
Wow....really?!?!


When dealing with computers this is NOT what multitasking refers to. Multitasking refers to having multiple applications running at the same time and the way in which the OS shares CPU resources to those applications.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 02:48 PM   #73
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Wow....really?!?!


When dealing with computers this is NOT what multitasking refers to. Multitasking refers to having multiple applications running at the same time and the way in which the OS shares CPU resources to those applications.
Now that we have the textbook meaning we can all move along.

I find more and more benefit to having multiple windows open on a daily basis. Kinda reminds me of 20 years ago when I first started using windows. Not having "windows" was always a step backwards.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 05:55 PM   #74
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Now that we have the textbook meaning we can all move along.

I find more and more benefit to having multiple windows open on a daily basis. Kinda reminds me of 20 years ago when I first started using windows. Not having "windows" was always a step backwards.
While I do remember the dark windowless days of DOS, it is also true that on my MacBook Air, I find myself using most apps full-screen. I'd rather switch between full-screen apps than divide up the limited real screen estate into Windows. So personally, I don't wish for windowed apps on iOS -- even just imagining the already small iPad screen further divided up into Windows gives me shudders.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 06:19 PM   #75
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While I do remember the dark windowless days of DOS, it is also true that on my MacBook Air, I find myself using most apps full-screen. I'd rather switch between full-screen apps than divide up the limited real screen estate into Windows. So personally, I don't wish for windowed apps on iOS -- even just imagining the already small iPad screen further divided up into Windows gives me shudders.
I like full screen programs as well, if I'm not multi tasking. But it's very nice to have stuff side by side as well. As always the argument is simply to have the choice to do either, seems as if that's the common theme against a lot of what ios does, or rather does not do.
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