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Old Jul 14, 2013, 11:43 AM   #51
opinioncircle
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Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
The same happens in every election in the West. Political parties make an effort to get their voters to the ballot box.
That's a tad different here. First & foremost, you do not have actual members of these political parties taking people to the ballot boxes.

Second, they do not take people who cannot read and write to these boxes as as well.

Though, to be fair, in France, some dead people were on record as having voted
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Old Jul 14, 2013, 05:34 PM   #52
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That's a tad different here. First & foremost, you do not have actual members of these political parties taking people to the ballot boxes.
Yes you do. They aren't allowed in the same room as the ballot box, but they certainly take people to the polling station.

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Also do early visits to older people who may need car lifts (which takes time) or be reluctant to go out once it gets dark.
http://labourlist.org/2012/05/10-top...l-polling-day/

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Second, they do not take people who cannot read and write to these boxes as as well.
Only because everyone can read and write.
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Old Jul 14, 2013, 06:07 PM   #53
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Wait.

There's unrest in Egypt?

Shocker.
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Old Jul 16, 2013, 12:57 PM   #54
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Yes you do. They aren't allowed in the same room as the ballot box, but they certainly take people to the polling station.



http://labourlist.org/2012/05/10-top...l-polling-day/



Only because everyone can read and write.
Am not really getting your post. You're telling me that the state of democracy in the UK is as the situation in Egypt??

You also seem not to be appalled by the fact that official supervisors' from a political faction take people who cannot read/write to vote, or block streets for those who can so that they're not allowed to vote, makes it for a rigged & unfair election ...

Please elaborate on this...
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Old Aug 14, 2013, 01:23 PM   #55
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I have been watching the news from Egypt today. What has been happening is appalling, savage in execution and murderously, utterly unjust in conception. While it is truly shocking, it is not, unfortunately, all that surprising.

This is zero sum politics at its gloomiest, direst expression; the idea that one side can only triumph at the cost of the total annihilation of the other, that there is not rom for both, and that a loyal opposition cannot exist, because oppositions by their very nature are naturally, disloyal.

The idea that both - or all - sides can emerge from a political encounter or consultation with something, while no-one to such an exchange comes away with nothing - something which is one of the very foundation stones of much modern political negotiation counts for little in political systems which have not been allowed the space to grow, and thus, to acquire an understanding of the notion of political 'give and take'. Negotiation, and compromise and acknowledging the perspective of 'the other' are all perceived as weakness. Or sometimes, worse, are seen as 'selling out', where your greatest opponents can end up being the purists on your own side.




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Am not really getting your post. You're telling me that the state of democracy in the UK is as the situation in Egypt??

You also seem not to be appalled by the fact that official supervisors' from a political faction take people who cannot read/write to vote, or block streets for those who can so that they're not allowed to vote, makes it for a rigged & unfair election ...

Please elaborate on this...
Nobody would presume to suggest that the UK and Egypt enjoy a similar understanding or - and application of - democracy as that form of government is commonly understood. However, equally clearly, nobody would presume to place last year's election in Egypt - imperfect as it was - on a par with the outrageously fraudulent elections more commonly found in autocracies. While it was not perfect, it was a pretty accurate reflection of the stated preferences of the Egyptian electorate at that time, and nothing I have read in any source anywhere suggests otherwise.
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Old Aug 14, 2013, 02:11 PM   #56
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.

Nobody would presume to suggest that the UK and Egypt enjoy a similar understanding or - and application of - democracy as that form of government is commonly understood. However, equally clearly, nobody would presume to place last year's election in Egypt - imperfect as it was - on a par with the outrageously fraudulent elections more commonly found in autocracies. While it was not perfect, it was a pretty accurate reflection of the stated preferences of the Egyptian electorate at that time, and nothing I have read in any source anywhere suggests otherwise.
Clearly the 2012 was not a picture of the Egyptian electorate. It was said so by most Western-based medias, subscribing to an Obama doctrine that needed democracy & the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. It was a quick victory as America claiming its #1 superpower status.

However, the truth is that not all people who were allowed to vote, did actually vote. Multiple sources across the world acknowledged the existence of massive fraud.

Coming back now for CNN and other news outlets, and to say that Mr Morsi was elected by most Egyptians is a lack of professional journalism, read integrity & honesty here.

I do agree this is a low point in a democracy to reach that point. However, please bear in mind, that there are no records of a peaceful transition to democracy.

Children were paid to stage protests, wear flags, weapons were hidden inside these squares & places in Cairo.
Moreover, Coptic churches were burned across Egypt, vandalized with no one giving one single of air time to this (except, maybe the Guardian).
Shots were fired on both sides, do not get fooled by media outlets. They depict an agenda and/or a lack of journalism skills more than a reality...
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Old Aug 15, 2013, 03:30 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by opinioncircle View Post
Am not really getting your post. You're telling me that the state of democracy in the UK is as the situation in Egypt??

You also seem not to be appalled by the fact that official supervisors' from a political faction take people who cannot read/write to vote, or block streets for those who can so that they're not allowed to vote, makes it for a rigged & unfair election ...

Please elaborate on this...
If substantial proportion of people in the UK couldn't read or right I doubt the difference would be particularly significant in political parties taking people to vote. Which I'm sure also happens in the US.

I agree that blocking streets is something that wouldn't have happened in the UK but is there any evidence of that being a widespread issue?

I'd much rather talk about the recent serious oppression by the military which is very concerning.
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Old Aug 15, 2013, 05:50 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
If substantial proportion of people in the UK couldn't read or right I doubt the difference would be particularly significant in political parties taking people to vote. Which I'm sure also happens in the US.

I agree that blocking streets is something that wouldn't have happened in the UK but is there any evidence of that being a widespread issue?

I'd much rather talk about the recent serious oppression by the military which is very concerning.
There have been multiple reports about the streets being blocked.

Moving on from that point, the oppression from the military, as it has been shortcut by most news outlets, comes from multiple warnings done by the military that they'd clear the sit ins out and clear cut refusals by pro-Morsi to walk out.

The word oppression is a wrong and poor choice of word. They cleared out the areas to make sure that the people being manipulated into sitting in into these squares got home safely. Of course, casualties happened because the debate is now so polarized, that only raw actions can be taken.
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Old Aug 15, 2013, 09:48 AM   #59
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There have been multiple reports about the streets being blocked.

Moving on from that point, the oppression from the military, as it has been shortcut by most news outlets, comes from multiple warnings done by the military that they'd clear the sit ins out and clear cut refusals by pro-Morsi to walk out.

The word oppression is a wrong and poor choice of word. They cleared out the areas to make sure that the people being manipulated into sitting in into these squares got home safely. Of course, casualties happened because the debate is now so polarized, that only raw actions can be taken.
Really?? To keep people safe, use automatic weapons? The debate is so polarised you must slaughter your adversaries?
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Old Aug 15, 2013, 10:20 AM   #60
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Excellent article by Juan Cole on the current tragedy unfolding in Egypt. Very fair and points out faults committed by both sides, though the military has the most blood on its hands.

http://www.juancole.com/2013/08/tran...tatorship.html

Quote:
Egypt’s Transition Has Failed: New Age of Military Dictatorship in Wake of Massacre

The horrible bloodshed in Egypt on Wednesday marked a turning point in the country’s modern history, locking it in to years of authoritarian paternalism and possibly violent faction fighting. The country is ruled by an intolerant junta with no respect for human life. Neither the Brotherhood nor the military made the kind of bargain and compromises necessary for a successful democratic transition. It is true that some armed Brotherhood cadres killed some 50 troops and police, and that some 20 Coptic Christian churches were attacked, some burned. But the onus for the massacre lies with the Egyptian military. Mohamed Elbaradei, who resigned as interim vice president for foreign affairs, had urged that the Brotherhood sit-ins be gradually and peacefully whittled Way at. His plan was Egypt’s only hope of reconciliation. Now it has a feud.
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Old Aug 15, 2013, 10:47 AM   #61
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Excellent article by Juan Cole on the current tragedy unfolding in Egypt. Very fair and points out faults committed by both sides, though the military has the most blood on its hands.

http://www.juancole.com/2013/08/tran...tatorship.html
Excellent, thoughtful article; once again, zero sum politics has negated any sort of progress. While he did - initially - have a mandate, President Morsi proved himself to have been an exceptionally poor ruler. The demonstrations which overthrew him were a clear indication of how wide and deep and far-reaching the public alienation with his rule had grown. Ruling solely in the interests of your own group (and indeed, god) while alienating everyone else is not recipe for success. Zero sum politics only creates losers across the board, and rarely ultimate winers, for all that they may seem to be victorious at a given point.

But we are back to a deeper issue, which is that in countries where access to the public space has been severely curtailed, where civil society has been stifled, open discussion stunted, it is almost impossible to expect that a thriving, inclusive, liberal, democracy will evolve overnight. Instead, the default position tends to become a version of zero sum politics, and an exclusive, intolerant, repressive rather than an inclusive, narrative of power.
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Old Aug 15, 2013, 11:46 AM   #62
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There have been multiple reports about the streets being blocked.
Do you have a source?

----------

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Originally Posted by Scepticalscribe View Post
Excellent, thoughtful article; once again, zero sum politics has negated any sort of progress. While he did - initially - have a mandate, President Morsi proved himself to have been an exceptionally poor ruler. The demonstrations which overthrew him were a clear indication of how wide and deep and far-reaching the public alienation with his rule had grown. Ruling solely in the interests of your own group (and indeed, god) while alienating everyone else is not recipe for success. Zero sum politics only creates losers across the board, and rarely ultimate winers, for all that they may seem to be victorious at a given point.

But we are back to a deeper issue, which is that in countries where access to the public space has been severely curtailed, where civil society has been stifled, open discussion stunted, it is almost impossible to expect that a thriving, inclusive, liberal, democracy will evolve overnight. Instead, the default position tends to become a version of zero sum politics, and an exclusive, intolerant, repressive rather than an inclusive, narrative of power.
Excellent point.
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Old Aug 15, 2013, 11:59 AM   #63
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The word oppression is a wrong and poor choice of word. They cleared out the areas to make sure that the people being manipulated into sitting in into these squares got home safely. Of course, casualties happened because the debate is now so polarized, that only raw actions can be taken.
I find it hard to credit the disingenuousness bordering on vile and shameless propaganda in this entirely crass and unbelievable analysis. They killed five hundred people to help them get home safely? You should be ashamed of yourself.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 02:01 AM   #64
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I always said Egypt's real economy is just two sources, the Suez Canal & tourism.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 05:42 AM   #65
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Really?? To keep people safe, use automatic weapons? The debate is so polarised you must slaughter your adversaries?
That is perfectly right, and was reported by local news on the ground. It seems that on both ends automatic weapons were used as well.

https://twitter.com/Heshoz/status/36...774208/photo/1

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/leahbar...rches-n1665492

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I find it hard to credit the disingenuousness bordering on vile and shameless propaganda in this entirely crass and unbelievable analysis. They killed five hundred people to help them get home safely? You should be ashamed of yourself.
I would strongly advise you to keep you judgment on how should I feel to yourself. As for the shameless propaganda, I would also strongly advise to you to check out other media outlets than the traditional ones we're all accustomed to.

It is far from being a black and white story. The truth of the matter is that people died on both sides, and that situation would be avoided without less polarization into the debate and more understanding from both sides.

More than 40 days of negotiation between the parties with no result. This is a sad, but necessary step to make the country go forward.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 10:44 AM   #66
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I find it hard to credit the disingenuousness bordering on vile and shameless propaganda in this entirely crass and unbelievable analysis. They killed five hundred people to help them get home safely? You should be ashamed of yourself.
Eh, the Economist was saying that many Egyptians have a pretty similar viewpoint to that . The Islamists haven't always been the best behaved and they have also been demonised for a long time.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 11:52 AM   #67
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I think Obama's response was weak sauce. Our only leverage, seemingly, is the $1.5 billion we give them a year in aid, primarily military aid aka defense contractor jobs program. It would seem to me that since the military is currently in charge, a cut off or threat of a cut off in 30 days would have caught their ears much more than canceling the war games.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 12:19 PM   #68
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I think Obama's response was weak sauce. Our only leverage, seemingly, is the $1.5 billion we give them a year in aid, primarily military aid aka defense contractor jobs program. It would seem to me that since the military is currently in charge, a cut off or threat of a cut off in 30 days would have caught their ears much more than canceling the war games.
The funny part is, they don't even *use* most of the military stuff we send them. Egypt has a whole bunch of M1A1 Abrams tanks that have never even been unboxed!

The aid is 100% a US military contractor subsidy program. That's all.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 11:57 PM   #69
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Someone made this post on CNN, with regards to what is happening in Egypt. I felt it was... interesting.

Quote:
As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the case in:

United States — Muslim 0.6%
Australia — Muslim 1.5%
Canada — Muslim 1.9%
China — Muslim 1.8%
Italy — Muslim 1.5%
Norway — Muslim 1.8%

At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and
among street gangs. This is happening in:

Denmark — Muslim 2%
Germany — Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom — Muslim 2.7%
Spain — Muslim 4%
Thailand — Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to
their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the
introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby
securing food preparation jobs for Muslims.

They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves — along with threats for failure to comply.
This is occurring in:

France — Muslim 8%
Philippines — Muslim 5%
Sweden — Muslim 5%
Switzerland — Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands — Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago — Muslim 5.8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow
them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic
Law. The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the
entire world.
When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase
lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris ,
we are already seeing car-burnings.

Any non-Muslim action offends Islam, and results in uprisings and
threats, such as in Amsterdam , with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and
films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim
sections, in:

Guyana — Muslim 10%
India — Muslim 13.4%
Israel — Muslim 16%
Kenya — Muslim 10%
Russia — Muslim 15%

After reaching 20% , nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:

Ethiopia — Muslim 32.8%

At 40% , nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:

Bosnia — Muslim 40%
Chad — Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon — Muslim 59.7%

From 60% , nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers
of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic
ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya,
the tax placed on infidels, such as in:

Albania — Muslim 70%
Malaysia — Muslim 60.4%
Qatar — Muslim 77.5%
Sudan — Muslim 70%*

After 80% , expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is on-going in:

Bangladesh — Muslim 83%
Egypt — Muslim 90%
Gaza — Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia — Muslim 86.1%
Iran — Muslim 98%
Iraq — Muslim 97%
Jordan — Muslim 92%
Morocco — Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan — Muslim 97%
Palestine — Muslim 99%
Syria — Muslim 90%
Tajikistan — Muslim 90%
Turkey — Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates — Muslim 96%

100% will usher in the peace of ‘Dar-es-Salaam’ — the Islamic House of Peace. Here there’s supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the Madrasses are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word, such as in:

Afghanistan — Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia — Muslim 100%
Somalia — Muslim 100%
Yemen — Muslim 100%

Unfortunately, peace is never achieved, as in these 100% states the
most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood
lust by killing less radical Muslims, for a variety of reasons.
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Old Aug 17, 2013, 12:22 AM   #70
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Someone made this post on CNN, with regards to what is happening in Egypt. I felt it was... interesting.
If you change Muslim to Jewish, what happens then?
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Old Aug 17, 2013, 04:53 AM   #71
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Someone made this post on CNN, with regards to what is happening in Egypt. I felt it was... interesting.
Uhm... it's as if the article was about a virus. The only think this guy left out of his blatant racist blurb is that "once the patient has turned dark brown the sickness has spread to an irreversible point and should be put down".

I'm a convinced atheist, as as such, I see Islam - as well as the other religions - as a threat to knowledge, peace and freedom, but as racist speeches go, that's just on level 0. It includes basic statistics (which, by the way, are wrong by at least 2-fold in some cases, to better adhere to the pattern he's trying to show) just to pretend it's based on scientific evidence, and then goes on to stupid conjectures and to simplify -or plainly omit- political facts. It's so obviously partisan it's almost funny. Stephanie Bannister could've written it.

Muslim countries are undeveloped, in absolute terms, and they lag behind in terms of human rights and democracy, it's a fact nobody will deny. The religion itself pushes the idea that descendants of the prophet have the right to rule over the rest, and when they are not descendants, they have an effective repression system to make sure nobody complains too loud. Soft revolutions are few and far between, and most social injustices end up with violently, and the longer they lasted, the more violent the resulting catharsis will be.

Some dynasties have been in place in the middle east for hundreds of years and their breakdowns haven't happened yet (thanks to the western countries, by the way). Others (the countries where all the s*** is going off now) happen to be for the most part former colonies or protectorates, where our own countries decided to leave abruptly leaving the country to the strongest man, or that it was convenient to put a dictator/make friends with their dictator to make sure the country stayed stable and under control.
For ****'s sake, in the case of Egypt, the US have been helping an authoritatian regime with the latest in weapon technology, it's like giving a baseball bat to wife-beating neighbor!
It's was only logical that it wouldn't last forever, and we're witnessing what happens when you ignore a problem for too long. Sadly, the list of countries were a revolution has yet to happen is still very long.

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Old Aug 17, 2013, 06:11 AM   #72
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If you change Muslim to Jewish, what happens then?
The Holocaust, remember that?
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Old Aug 18, 2013, 01:23 PM   #73
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The Holocaust, remember that?
Why does something that happened 70 years ago - when most people alive weren't even born - mean we should treat Jews better than other religions?

Isn't that the sort of discrimination the Holocaust highlighted as a problem?
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Old Aug 19, 2013, 05:02 AM   #74
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Why does something that happened 70 years ago - when most people alive weren't even born - mean we should treat Jews better than other religions
It doesn't, but it does show the immense dangers inherent in ludicrous generalisation and dishonest propaganda.
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