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Old Jul 22, 2013, 07:40 PM   #501
Renzatic
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Originally Posted by Black Magic View Post
You clearly don't work in I/T. Also, of the entire post, why did you focus on one small fragment to go back and forth on?
And you're clearly not a dinosaur herder.

Why did I focus on one small part? Cuz Macs usually are easier to use than Windows machines. But as far as stability and power go, they're about neck and neck these days.
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Old Jul 22, 2013, 08:02 PM   #502
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And you're clearly not a dinosaur herder.

Why did I focus on one small part? Cuz Macs usually are easier to use than Windows machines. But as far as stability and power go, they're about neck and neck these days.
Ok, since we are going on tangents and going down rabbit holes, I'll drop one more nugget before I go back into lurk mode.

Google Windows 2008 R2 and BSOD. Are you aware that there are MS tools available to analyze BSOD dumps for their latest OSes? Are you aware of windows patches hanging servers and desktops from time to time? There are vendor drivers and software that cause problems as well but I think you get the point. Go tell any I/T professional that BSODs only occur on Windows 9x OSes. You probably will get laughed out of the room.

In my initial post I stated that the BSOD doesn't occur nearly as much as in the past but that memory has a lasting effect on many consumers.

Bottom line: I walk up to a random person and say BSOD, chances are they know what I'm talking about.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/w...s-in-windows-7
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Old Jul 22, 2013, 08:15 PM   #503
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Of course BSODs still happen. Hardware goes bad. Drivers get messed up. If you're running a hardware intensive server that needs to be up as long as possible, you'll want tools to figure out exactly why something went wrong if and when it does.

Just because MS provides tools to read blue screen dumps doesn't speak of the stability of the OS itself. There are crash logs in Unix. There are crash logs in Linux. There are crashlogs in BeOS. Crashes do happen.

Though...

Quote:
In my initial post I stated that the BSOD doesn't occur nearly as much as in the past but that memory has a lasting effect on many consumers.
For how long? 10 years? 20? 10 years ago, OSX was only just starting to get decent. 20? Only the hardcore of the hardcore stuck with Macs back then. Yet these days no one thinks about all the problems Apple machines used to have. So why is this somehow different for Windows?

...probably because a lot more people have used Windows, which kinda works into your bottom line. For a long time MS controlled close to 95% of the entire PC market. People are gonna remember bad things a little more because of that.

But it's not really pertinent to the quality of the OS these days. And contrary to the woeful performance of the Surface, and the moderate declining of the market, Windows and Windows 8 tablets and laptops are selling well enough to bring in profit for quite a few companies.

Edit: Hey cool! Links!

http://www.macworld.com/article/2027...nel-panic.html

http://macs.about.com/od/usingyourma...nel-Panics.htm

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13727_7-10344626-263.html

...what's kinda funny is that the steps you take to resolve constant kernel panics are about the same to fix BSOD issues.
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Old Jul 22, 2013, 08:30 PM   #504
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Originally Posted by Black Magic View Post
I think blue screens are a valid point to bring up when discussing Windows. They are part of the history of the OS and can still occur depending on faulty driver/software or hardware. Absolutely nothing ignorant about that. Now does the BSOD happen a lot less now with each new version? Sure, but the point is a valid one. As a one off goodie for you, the XBOX 360 has the infamous RROD and that was a completely different OS but I digress.

There are some folks out there that want a full OS on a tablet, but truly they are the minority. Why do I say this? The consumers have spoken. PC\laptop sales are in decline year after year. Tablets are flying off the shelves (excluding Microsoft's). Even if there was a large market out there for a full blown OS on a tablet, Microsoft's approach would still fail and already has failed. The Surface Pro is hardly lighting up the sales charts. The way you put it, you basically said if the Surface costs $1 and if it had an easy mode, etc..... it would sell like hotcakes. That's a whole lot of ifs!

Again, I think some folks including Microsoft keep clinging to the past to try and lead us into the future. It's a bad strategy. People have seen the light and don't want it anymore. Do you really want to go back to the days of installing Java, Flash, and Shockwave before you get on the internet? Do you want to go back to scheduled defrags? Scheduled virus scans? Updating your drivers to get the kinks worked out? Do you want to go back to deciding if you need PRO, HOME, HOME PREMIUM, ENTERPRISE and so on? Nope. There is a better way and Microsoft is not currently providing it.

P.S. MS used to be able to buy or bully their way out of messes. Now all their competitors have the same or better financial strength and clout so copying technology isn't going to cut it anymore. They truly need to innovate to thrive nowadays. Ballmer has to go!
I think the BSOD *might* be a good talking point with desktops mostly, to a MUCH smaller degree with laptops, and not at all with tablets. Why? Because tablets have non interchangeable hardware, and a driver set provided by the manufacturer with an alternate basic driver set from Microsoft. This provides a level of stability above what's already a well documented rock solid stability of not only windows 8, but also windows 7.

I get it though, I'm not totally disagreeing with you. Windows on a tablet theoretically brings a higher degree of tech know how. But in reality it's fairly transparent, and you really only believe this after you use a windows tablet for some time. You set the tablet to only open in Metro mode, all the settings are there in metro mode, you only use Metro apps, you don't have any of the issues you are worried about. Sure the BSOD is a valid point, but a valid point that virtually never happens becomes a valid but incredibly unimportant point.

I still don't think the point that consumers don't want windows on a tablet has been proven. PC sales are in decline because consumers want tablets, but that's not the whole story. What motivation is there to replace a 5 year old PC? Besides gaming, or a specialized field that needs the computing power what reason is there to replace a PC? This is the same exact conundrum that smartphones are starting to get into, and why the entire low cost smartphone market is heating up just like E-machines broke the PC industry 15 years ago.

As for MS strategy, you are 100% correct, that's what's killing them. Surface RT is junk and splits the market. Surface Pro is too niche. Atom tablets are undermarketed and not really showcased by Microsoft. Windows 8 Metro, while a necessary evil, is still an evil that has to be accepted kicking and screaming by windows users. Yes it's an uphill battle, but it still doesn't prove that consumers don't want windows tablets.

As for the future, I don't think the ipad is the future, to me it's a toy of the past kind of reminding me of using a big Palm Pilot but with modern hardware/specs. Just to call Windows a remnant of the past is like calling OSx a remnant of the past. I understand that they are desktop OS', but when Microsoft tries to shift it into mobile mode everyone cries foul. They really have done a good job, people just like to stick their head in the sand and pretend they did not because it's a threat to their beloved Apple.

In the end we are different users. I feel as I've given up WAY too much functionality being forced to use iOS all these years. I think when long battery life CPU's come around, hopefully in the surface 2 we are going to see quite a difference in the market, nothing overwhelming but it will be significant. Only time will tell and we can revisit this thread when we see a long battery life surface Pro 2 and what effect it has on the market.
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Old Jul 23, 2013, 12:11 AM   #505
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Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
Of course BSODs still happen. Hardware goes bad. Drivers get messed up. If you're running a hardware intensive server that needs to be up as long as possible, you'll want tools to figure out exactly why something went wrong if and when it does.

Just because MS provides tools to read blue screen dumps doesn't speak of the stability of the OS itself. There are crash logs in Unix. There are crash logs in Linux. There are crashlogs in BeOS. Crashes do happen.

Though...



For how long? 10 years? 20? 10 years ago, OSX was only just starting to get decent. 20? Only the hardcore of the hardcore stuck with Macs back then. Yet these days no one thinks about all the problems Apple machines used to have. So why is this somehow different for Windows?

...probably because a lot more people have used Windows, which kinda works into your bottom line. For a long time MS controlled close to 95% of the entire PC market. People are gonna remember bad things a little more because of that.

But it's not really pertinent to the quality of the OS these days. And contrary to the woeful performance of the Surface, and the moderate declining of the market, Windows and Windows 8 tablets and laptops are selling well enough to bring in profit for quite a few companies.

Edit: Hey cool! Links!

http://www.macworld.com/article/2027...nel-panic.html

http://macs.about.com/od/usingyourma...nel-Panics.htm

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13727_7-10344626-263.html

...what's kinda funny is that the steps you take to resolve constant kernel panics are about the same to fix BSOD issues.

I think you are missing the point. Apple isn't making tablets based on OSX so why are you using that as a counter point?
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Old Jul 23, 2013, 12:30 AM   #506
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Originally Posted by spinedoc77 View Post
I think the BSOD *might* be a good talking point with desktops mostly, to a MUCH smaller degree with laptops, and not at all with tablets. Why? Because tablets have non interchangeable hardware, and a driver set provided by the manufacturer with an alternate basic driver set from Microsoft. This provides a level of stability above what's already a well documented rock solid stability of not only windows 8, but also windows 7.

I get it though, I'm not totally disagreeing with you. Windows on a tablet theoretically brings a higher degree of tech know how. But in reality it's fairly transparent, and you really only believe this after you use a windows tablet for some time. You set the tablet to only open in Metro mode, all the settings are there in metro mode, you only use Metro apps, you don't have any of the issues you are worried about. Sure the BSOD is a valid point, but a valid point that virtually never happens becomes a valid but incredibly unimportant point.

I still don't think the point that consumers don't want windows on a tablet has been proven. PC sales are in decline because consumers want tablets, but that's not the whole story. What motivation is there to replace a 5 year old PC? Besides gaming, or a specialized field that needs the computing power what reason is there to replace a PC? This is the same exact conundrum that smartphones are starting to get into, and why the entire low cost smartphone market is heating up just like E-machines broke the PC industry 15 years ago.

As for MS strategy, you are 100% correct, that's what's killing them. Surface RT is junk and splits the market. Surface Pro is too niche. Atom tablets are undermarketed and not really showcased by Microsoft. Windows 8 Metro, while a necessary evil, is still an evil that has to be accepted kicking and screaming by windows users. Yes it's an uphill battle, but it still doesn't prove that consumers don't want windows tablets.

As for the future, I don't think the ipad is the future, to me it's a toy of the past kind of reminding me of using a big Palm Pilot but with modern hardware/specs. Just to call Windows a remnant of the past is like calling OSx a remnant of the past. I understand that they are desktop OS', but when Microsoft tries to shift it into mobile mode everyone cries foul. They really have done a good job, people just like to stick their head in the sand and pretend they did not because it's a threat to their beloved Apple.

In the end we are different users. I feel as I've given up WAY too much functionality being forced to use iOS all these years. I think when long battery life CPU's come around, hopefully in the surface 2 we are going to see quite a difference in the market, nothing overwhelming but it will be significant. Only time will tell and we can revisit this thread when we see a long battery life surface Pro 2 and what effect it has on the market.
To be fair, I don't think any desktop OS on a tablet would cut it theses days. I think the normal use cases for tablets are:

1. Email
2. Media consumption
3. Social

When it's time for serious productivity, you need more screen size, keyboard and a mouse.

You believe the surface 2 will get it right but I think it is dead on arrival. Nobody wants the surface now and battery life has nothing to do with it. It's windows 8 that's the main issue.

I see it in the same light as Windows Phone. Look at wp7. WP8 came and its doing no better.
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Old Jul 23, 2013, 05:52 AM   #507
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Originally Posted by Black Magic View Post
To be fair, I don't think any desktop OS on a tablet would cut it theses days. I think the normal use cases for tablets are:

1. Email
2. Media consumption
3. Social

When it's time for serious productivity, you need more screen size, keyboard and a mouse.

You believe the surface 2 will get it right but I think it is dead on arrival. Nobody wants the surface now and battery life has nothing to do with it. It's windows 8 that's the main issue.

I see it in the same light as Windows Phone. Look at wp7. WP8 came and its doing no better.
That's all good, but I disagree. WP8 is actually doing pretty good, but that's another topic. like I said we will see when its released. The current surface pro has sold a healthy amount, nothing spectacular but still a healthy amount, 900,000 in 2013 q1, and that was only half the quarter, and that's for a tablet that IMO is flawed as a niche product. I understand it pales to the ipads 22 million, but it's not insignificant, and no one is talking about Microsoft dominating the market, yet.
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Old Jul 23, 2013, 03:58 PM   #508
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**** you apple yeah!!!

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Image


Microsoft today released another anti-iPad commercial, this time focusing on the iPad's lack of a USB port while highlighting the Surface RT's keyboard and stand. The ad once again returns to using Siri's voice to point out the iPad's shortcomings.

"Oh dear, I need a little help here," says Siri as the Surface is propped up with its included kickstand. "I'm sorry, I don't have a USB port," Siri continues, before lamenting about the Surface keyboard. "Oh snap, you have a real keyboard too?"

YouTube: video
Microsoft's newest ad comes just a day after the company announced that it was taking a $900 million charge "related to Surface RT inventory adjustments," during its fiscal fourth quarter earnings report. As of Sunday, Microsoft discounted the price of its Surface RT by $150.

The 32GB version of the tablet now sells for $349 compared to $599 for the 32GB iPad, which is another point that Microsoft uses in its newest advertisement. "This isn't going to end well for me, is it?" Siri asks, just before the prices flash on the screen. "No, definitely not ending well. Do you still think I'm pretty?"

Following yesterday's announcement, Microsoft stock fell 12%, marking its worst single day drop since 2000.

Article Link: Microsoft Releases New Anti-iPad Ad Highlighting Surface Accessories
Guys remember the "BUY A MAC" adds? well now mincrosoft makes a good comeback yeah!!!
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Old Jul 23, 2013, 06:01 PM   #509
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I think you are missing the point. Apple isn't making tablets based on OSX so why are you using that as a counter point?
Wait, you don't remember people here fighting so long and hard to have iOS recognized as based on OS X?
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Old Jul 24, 2013, 02:51 PM   #510
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I love Apple and all, but this commercial was quite solid. Not sure why everyone is getting defensive over it. Surface really shines here and it makes the iPad look inferior at 2x the cost of a Surface. Ha.
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Old Jul 24, 2013, 05:00 PM   #511
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Cheesy Commercial but I think the Surface is a better product.
Get Linux running on it even better.
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 11:51 AM   #512
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Personally I like to be treated as an intelligent adult with choices rather than a stupid child who needs something "simple", but hey that's me.
That isn't case for iOS. It's having an intuitive interface that works for tablet that was the sticking point before Apple launched their iPhone/iPad/iTouch products. How you can say it treats people like a stupid child? It's simplicity of the interface that allows developers to create the complexity in their apps without sacrificing the general experience.

Android creates too many choices and narrows usability for the general population. Not everyone is an IT expert who can root/flash/upgrade the OS for their own gains (and the under Google's own lack of strategy to keep as many devices up to date for as long as possible).

Quote:
Although I would assume with the ambiguity of your analogy you meant windows x86 to windows rt/arm, but that's just a mistake all around any way you look at it, no arguments from me there.
That's what I meant. The PowerPC/x86 OSX argument is still based on how you implement/support two different types of system. Microsoft introducing the ARM/RT versions of devices has created confusion/

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I think the worst thing Apple ever did was create that divide, between tablets and "real computers". I understand (although few on there actually do) that part of that decision was dictated by hardware, and rightly so, Apple made a great decision to limit iOS in order to have a thin, light tablet with phenomenal battery life. But those days are past us and there is now NO reason to have a simplistic watered down OS on tablets anymore, zero, zilch other than to have this weird "hey my grandma can use it" or "hey my 2 year old can use it" mentality. I'm not sure when "my 2 year old can use it" became the benchmark for technology, but personally I think that was a very sad day for all of us.
If now, you still see Microsoft struggling to get anyone (even themselves) to build a credible tablet with a desktop OS running for 10 hours straight with a usable light physical presence like the iPad. If you see desktop at the top and mobile at the bottom, Microsoft have done wrong to go from top to middle (adapt their desktop OS). Don't mention the hybrid laptop/tablets running Windows 8. They're non-starters and technical failures from birth.
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 11:56 AM   #513
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That's what I meant. The PowerPC/x86 OSX argument is still based on how you implement/support two different types of system. Microsoft introducing the ARM/RT versions of devices has created confusion
I can agree with it causing confusion, but MS didn't have any other choice in the matter. When Apple nixed PowerPC, the Core2 line had enough processing power to emulate the PPC instruction set under x86 with only a slight hit to performance. This can't be done for x86 applications under ARM. It doesn't have nearly enough processing power to pull it off. And even if it did, the hit to battery life would be so massive, it wouldn't be worth the attempt.
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Old Jul 28, 2013, 07:02 PM   #514
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That isn't case for iOS. It's having an intuitive interface that works for tablet that was the sticking point before Apple launched their iPhone/iPad/iTouch products. How you can say it treats people like a stupid child? It's simplicity of the interface that allows developers to create the complexity in their apps without sacrificing the general experience.

Android creates too many choices and narrows usability for the general population. Not everyone is an IT expert who can root/flash/upgrade the OS for their own gains (and the under Google's own lack of strategy to keep as many devices up to date for as long as possible).


That's what I meant. The PowerPC/x86 OSX argument is still based on how you implement/support two different types of system. Microsoft introducing the ARM/RT versions of devices has created confusion/



If now, you still see Microsoft struggling to get anyone (even themselves) to build a credible tablet with a desktop OS running for 10 hours straight with a usable light physical presence like the iPad. If you see desktop at the top and mobile at the bottom, Microsoft have done wrong to go from top to middle (adapt their desktop OS). Don't mention the hybrid laptop/tablets running Windows 8. They're non-starters and technical failures from birth.
Every user is different, and I can only speak for myself, but I can feel my IQ drop 10 points every time I use iOS. Once again that seems harsh, but it's the way I feel about it. I fully understand I may be a more technically oriented user than grandma or my 2 year old, no arguments there, but it's just that the interface seems too simplified to the point where you really do have a watered down experience. I could go forever about this, but it's pretty obvious in something like word processing, or graphics work just to name 2 obvious examples. Yes I know supposedly the developer community will eventually catch up with finger driven menus and programs, but IMO I don't think they will ever quite catch up, and even something as simple as a stylus can bridge the gap between old desktop and new tablet paradigms. I'm not saying that's the solution, it's NOT, but it's what we have today.

Yet that watered down experience is just enough for consumers and I don't want to be mistaken for trying to speak for consumers, only myself. The only thing I really don't understand from people who argue against Microsoft is what is a windows tablet missing that an ipad has? Yes I know the elephant in the room is the app store, but that is the reason MS did not just ditch the desktop. I understand not ditching the desktop is seen as an error, but I disagree, this is their strongest selling point by far and their mistake was not calculating either a better transition to Metro, or just re inventing the desktop itself instead of Metro.

Keep in mind that no one is necessarily "struggling to get anyone (even themselves) to build a credible tablet with a desktop OS running for 10 hours straight with a usable light physical presence like the iPad". Microsoft have already done JUST that, there are windows tablets which run for 10+ hours, have the same size, weight and thinness of the ipad, and have a credible mobile OS. Yes Metro is a credible mobile OS, especially after 8.1.

It's funny, I had a perfect example of how using iOS "intuitive and simple" OS screwed me over just earlier tonight. I was over at my nephews and wanted to begin to teach him Scratch/Scratch Jr., which is a programming language meant for very young kids. Sure enough it's in Flash, which Apple said was too complex for people to handle. Thankfully I had my windows tablet with me and was able to get what I wanted accomplished with no issues, certainly none of the crap that's supposed to happen if I run Flash on my tablet, nope it ran smooth as silk and the ipad worked nicely as a coaster for my beer.

In the end though, with MS horribly strategy I see windows tablets as selling in Ultrabook numbers, nowhere near tablets as iOS and android are just too firmly entrenched and MS made some suicidal errors by releasing RT. At least this year that is, it's always possible that MS will come out with a Surface with a Baytrail/Atom processor, Metro will have evolved, and the app store will continue to grow exponentially and MS will continue to market smartly as they have been and next year may be a whole different story. In any case competition is great.

----------

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I can agree with it causing confusion, but MS didn't have any other choice in the matter. When Apple nixed PowerPC, the Core2 line had enough processing power to emulate the PPC instruction set under x86 with only a slight hit to performance. This can't be done for x86 applications under ARM. It doesn't have nearly enough processing power to pull it off. And even if it did, the hit to battery life would be so massive, it wouldn't be worth the attempt.
I usually agree with ya Ren, but MS had no reason at all to release RT or to even invent it. MS had the atom processor, which runs windows quite capably, better than RT IMO, as I see RT being pretty laggy overall but Windows on the Atom CPU isn't laggy in the least.

I've said this before, but MS should have released the Surface regular version as an Atom tablet and marketed the crap out of it against the ipad, they could have released the surface pro against it as well for the niche hardcore users, although frankly having used both I find it hard to see what users need the power of the surface Pro for versus the atom tablets. Within that strategy RT would never have existed, it just makes no sense on any level. The only way RT would have ever *maybe* made sense is if MS had an app store which could have competed with Apple's, and we all know they didn't.
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Old Jul 28, 2013, 08:03 PM   #515
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I usually agree with ya Ren, but MS had no reason at all to release RT or to even invent it. MS had the atom processor, which runs windows quite capably, better than RT IMO, as I see RT being pretty laggy overall but Windows on the Atom CPU isn't laggy in the least.

I've said this before, but MS should have released the Surface regular version as an Atom tablet and marketed the crap out of it against the ipad, they could have released the surface pro against it as well for the niche hardcore users, although frankly having used both I find it hard to see what users need the power of the surface Pro for versus the atom tablets. Within that strategy RT would never have existed, it just makes no sense on any level. The only way RT would have ever *maybe* made sense is if MS had an app store which could have competed with Apple's, and we all know they didn't.
I've had another one of my slight changes of heart. Just a few days before, I would've agreed with you. With Atom just about being able to match ARM, and Haswell chips giving x86 HUGE battery life improvements, the RT does seem a bit out of place. Sure, it's got decent battery life (not too great, not too bad), but there aren't any worthwhile apps for it. MS' one big advantage is mooted with the RT. I couldn't see a reason for them to support ARM.

But then I read about the Snapdragon 800. It's an ARM chip with all the advantages ARM offers, but it's performance gives it a good foothold into x86 level territory. Synthetic benchmarks actually have it beating i3's in some areas. That's pretty impressive for a line of chips that were only good for cheesy mobile apps not even 3 years ago.

So now I'm thinking maybe MS should hold on to ARM, at least as a means to hedge their bets. I always knew ARM and Intel would eventually meet somewhere in the middle, with ARM chips becoming more powerful, and Intel making their chips much more power efficient. Thing is, I figured this would happen in a couple more years, with the first big pushes made in late 2014 or so. But nope...it's happening now. A helluva lot faster than I expected. Intel will have the high end shored up for years to come, but ARM could be going head to head with them in the consumer and prosumer market very, very soon. Considering they're a good deal cheaper than Intel chips, and can be produced by just about any company with the money to do so, they have a potentially huge advantage here.

If MS is wise, they'll try to play both sides of the equation. To do that, they're gonna need RT. They need to play to their strengths for the time being, while slowly building up their ARM capabilities for the inevitable chip war that's up and coming.
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Old Jul 29, 2013, 06:38 AM   #516
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So are you suggesting that a device that offers expandable memory is a bad thing? Regardless of how much the OS does or does not take up. Is expansion not preferable as an option?
No, but the MS Surface units are so bloated with crap...the 64GB surface pro comes with only 23GB of usable storage, so expandable memory IS NEEDED for those units (most of which are sitting in a warehouse). It's one thing to have expandable memory in case you need it, but it's another to have it because you don't get much space to begin with...

----------

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Nah that theory was massively disproved when you break down what's on the hard drive, nice try. It gets even better, when compared with say OSx it's at least similar if not better in terms of hard disc space.

This is one of those perpetuated myths which keep resurfacing due to ignorance.

----------



She is foreign? Maybe there is a phrase for USB in her language?
Not according to MS itself:

http://www.microsoft.com/Surface/en-US/storage
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Old Jul 29, 2013, 07:28 AM   #517
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No, but the MS Surface units are so bloated with crap...the 64GB surface pro comes with only 23GB of usable storage, so expandable memory IS NEEDED for those units (most of which are sitting in a warehouse). It's one thing to have expandable memory in case you need it, but it's another to have it because you don't get much space to begin with...[COLOR="#808080"]
Needed is relative - isn't it. You don't NEED to add storage. You CAN add storage. Not everyone would eat up the extra space..

So I stand by my original assertion.
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Old Jul 29, 2013, 09:23 AM   #518
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I've had another one of my slight changes of heart. Just a few days before, I would've agreed with you. With Atom just about being able to match ARM, and Haswell chips giving x86 HUGE battery life improvements, the RT does seem a bit out of place. Sure, it's got decent battery life (not too great, not too bad), but there aren't any worthwhile apps for it. MS' one big advantage is mooted with the RT. I couldn't see a reason for them to support ARM.

But then I read about the Snapdragon 800. It's an ARM chip with all the advantages ARM offers, but it's performance gives it a good foothold into x86 level territory. Synthetic benchmarks actually have it beating i3's in some areas. That's pretty impressive for a line of chips that were only good for cheesy mobile apps not even 3 years ago.

So now I'm thinking maybe MS should hold on to ARM, at least as a means to hedge their bets. I always knew ARM and Intel would eventually meet somewhere in the middle, with ARM chips becoming more powerful, and Intel making their chips much more power efficient. Thing is, I figured this would happen in a couple more years, with the first big pushes made in late 2014 or so. But nope...it's happening now. A helluva lot faster than I expected. Intel will have the high end shored up for years to come, but ARM could be going head to head with them in the consumer and prosumer market very, very soon. Considering they're a good deal cheaper than Intel chips, and can be produced by just about any company with the money to do so, they have a potentially huge advantage here.

If MS is wise, they'll try to play both sides of the equation. To do that, they're gonna need RT. They need to play to their strengths for the time being, while slowly building up their ARM capabilities for the inevitable chip war that's up and coming.
Interesting stuff for sure. I still think Atom is the way to go. Intel is completely redoing the Atom CPU in Baytrail, they are so serious about it that they are trying to distance themselves from the "atom" name. Just the other day I read an article on how Intel has realized it will be left behind if it doesn't put a major part of it's focus into mobile chips. This tells me that a) Intel mobile chips are going to be very nice as they are going to put their full weight behind development, and b) they will be competitively priced so oems don't go elsewhere.

In any case my point actually had very little to do with which CPU was used, this doesn't really matter as the point to be taken home is that RT should not have existed. I don't think it's an excuse to say that RT existed only because the best chip to use was an ARM chip and that doesn't run x86 code, the best argument against that is simply the existence of the atom chip. As for cost I don't see that being an issue because the atom tablets actually cost LESS than the RT tablets in many cases, certainly at release without any discounts they were about the same price. Even better with Intel's focus on mobile I'll bet those chips will be even cheaper next time around.

Interesting stuff for sure though. Maybe ARM is a decent bargaining chip for MS to use against Intel, but I just think the lack of x86 capability makes ARM a weak bargaining chip IMO.
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Old Jul 29, 2013, 11:11 AM   #519
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No, but the MS Surface units are so bloated with crap...the 64GB surface pro comes with only 23GB of usable storage, so expandable memory IS NEEDED for those units (most of which are sitting in a warehouse). It's one thing to have expandable memory in case you need it, but it's another to have it because you don't get much space to begin with...

----------



Not according to MS itself:

http://www.microsoft.com/Surface/en-US/storage
Take away the recovery partition and MS Office pre install and what are you left with? This has been bandied about a lot, it's very comparable to what a macbook has for free space, and if memory serves me correctly I think the macbook had less free space. That 23gb figure is quite disingenuous and is a favorite for people to throw out hoping it's not scrutinized closely. I'd search for the thread where it was discussed and exact figures were discussed, but I'm late for lunch, maybe when I get back.

The other major point is that you have the removable storage, microSD goes up to 64 gb. Another point is to look at cost, compare a 64gb windows tablet to a 64gb ipad and it becomes more comparable to look at a 32gb ipad for the money. 64gb ipad is $699, 32gb is $599, you can get windows tablets for $399. Hell, that means you should really be comparing a 64gb windows tablet versus a 16gb ipad which is still $499. So even with the trumped up "23gb" claim I'm still getting 7gb more at $100 less.
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Old Jul 29, 2013, 12:50 PM   #520
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Interesting stuff for sure. I still think Atom is the way to go. Intel is completely redoing the Atom CPU in Baytrail, they are so serious about it that they are trying to distance themselves from the "atom" name. Just the other day I read an article on how Intel has realized it will be left behind if it doesn't put a major part of it's focus into mobile chips. This tells me that a) Intel mobile chips are going to be very nice as they are going to put their full weight behind development, and b) they will be competitively priced so oems don't go elsewhere.

In any case my point actually had very little to do with which CPU was used, this doesn't really matter as the point to be taken home is that RT should not have existed. I don't think it's an excuse to say that RT existed only because the best chip to use was an ARM chip and that doesn't run x86 code, the best argument against that is simply the existence of the atom chip. As for cost I don't see that being an issue because the atom tablets actually cost LESS than the RT tablets in many cases, certainly at release without any discounts they were about the same price. Even better with Intel's focus on mobile I'll bet those chips will be even cheaper next time around.
x86 is still in an excellent position, and it's quickly becoming competitive with ARM in the mobile market. Thing is, Intel's future dominance, much like MS', isn't an assured thing. Both of them are facing threats to their position from multiple fronts. Intel has Apple, Qualcomm, Nvidia, Samsung, and tons others gunning for them on the consumer front. If someone else is able to match them in performance and quality at a lower price, more companies are gonna use them instead. And what if someone actually ends up making something better? It happened once before with AMD. It could happen again. Only this time it could be far more damaging to Intel because everything is so much more platform specific these days. It isn't just Windows with one processor or the other running the same programs. It's Apple, Google, Samsung sporting a strong ARM presence with their own hardware and OSes, vs. MS who's still mostly x86.

The whole computer industry is gearing up for a giant shakedown. MS needs to have an ARM product in their lineup to prepare themselves for whatever happens. That's why I've gone from saying that RT is completely unnecessary to saying what I'm saying now. MS needs an ARM OS to hedge their bets, but they need to do a better job with it.

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Interesting stuff for sure though. Maybe ARM is a decent bargaining chip for MS to use against Intel, but I just think the lack of x86 capability makes ARM a weak bargaining chip IMO.
Yeah, right now. But what about two years from now? At the rate things are going, there's gonna come a point in the very near future where the two processors are more alike than not. At that point it comes down to apps. x86 has a huge legacy catalog to fall back on, but that's only so much of an advantage. If all the latest games, apps, productivity programs are being compiled for both chips, and perform just as well as each other, Intel isn't so much the de facto leader as much as one competitor among many. And MS, being a company who's major focus is selling a platform to run apps off of, can't really afford to bet on one horse in that race.

One thing's for sure, things are gonna get a lot different and a lot more interesting here soon.
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Old Jul 29, 2013, 02:05 PM   #521
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x86 is still in an excellent position, and it's quickly becoming competitive with ARM in the mobile market. Thing is, Intel's future dominance, much like MS', isn't an assured thing. Both of them are facing threats to their position from multiple fronts. Intel has Apple, Qualcomm, Nvidia, Samsung, and tons others gunning for them on the consumer front. If someone else is able to match them in performance and quality at a lower price, more companies are gonna use them instead. And what if someone actually ends up making something better? It happened once before with AMD. It could happen again. Only this time it could be far more damaging to Intel because everything is so much more platform specific these days. It isn't just Windows with one processor or the other running the same programs. It's Apple, Google, Samsung sporting a strong ARM presence with their own hardware and OSes, vs. MS who's still mostly x86.

The whole computer industry is gearing up for a giant shakedown. MS needs to have an ARM product in their lineup to prepare themselves for whatever happens. That's why I've gone from saying that RT is completely unnecessary to saying what I'm saying now. MS needs an ARM OS to hedge their bets, but they need to do a better job with it.



Yeah, right now. But what about two years from now? At the rate things are going, there's gonna come a point in the very near future where the two processors are more alike than not. At that point it comes down to apps. x86 has a huge legacy catalog to fall back on, but that's only so much of an advantage. If all the latest games, apps, productivity programs are being compiled for both chips, and perform just as well as each other, Intel isn't so much the de facto leader as much as one competitor among many. And MS, being a company who's major focus is selling a platform to run apps off of, can't really afford to bet on one horse in that race.

One thing's for sure, things are gonna get a lot different and a lot more interesting here soon.
I still don't think having RT makes any sense, but of course that's just my opinion. It's bombed heavily and has utterly confused Microsofts market. I see your point about having ARM in their back pocket, but that means they are putting all of their eggs in the RT basket and that's VERY bad strategy. RT needs to die a quick death before MS pisses off more consumers.

Yes I agree that one day MS will compete app for app, but I think that's a while from now and seeing the longevity every version of Desktop windows seems to have I don't think we will see the desktop go away anytime soon.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 10:17 AM   #522
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Lol

They should wipe the slate clean and sell the remaining units at $99
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 10:19 AM   #523
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Really seems like Microsoft is trying too hard to gain customers from Apple. Why not compete against Android? Wouldn't it be more suited for them with a more scattered market share?
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Old Aug 5, 2013, 07:57 AM   #524
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yeah absolutely right. it seems as if microsoft thinks that apple is their only competitor. there is a huge android market out there. they should come up with better ideas. after all it is the idea that pays eventually.
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