The end of Apple (as we know it)

help4desk · Feb 18, 2013

I see your point.
To be honest, the last biggest innovations from Apple were substantial: iPhone, MBA, iPad. After that, almost nothing. Just the "retinization" and miniaturization of existing hardware. Ordinary administration, I'd say. When it will be over, with retina and slim everywhere, I wonder what else Apple may be capable to invent.
We'll miss SJ a lot.

glocke12 · Feb 19, 2013

help4desk said:
We'll miss SJ a lot.

I already do.

Rogifan · Feb 19, 2013

help4desk said:
I see your point.
To be honest, the last biggest innovations from Apple were substantial: iPhone, MBA, iPad. After that, almost nothing. Just the "retinization" and miniaturization of existing hardware. Ordinary administration, I'd say. When it will be over, with retina and slim everywhere, I wonder what else Apple may be capable to invent.
We'll miss SJ a lot.

It was 6 years between the iPod and iPhone. And 3 years between iPhone and iPad. It hasn't even been 2 years since Steve died. Not sure exactly what people are expecting. Apple wasn't cranking out revolutionary devices every 6 months under Jobs.

RedCroissant · Feb 20, 2013

glocke12 said:
I was just going to make a post asking if people thought Apple was going down the tubes...looks like I don't need to.

I switched back to Apple products in 2007 after using using windows machines from 1998 to 2007.

Within the past year to two years it really seems like Apple has changed and not for the better.

mapping software was a dismal failure..
removing front row
removing coverflow
obsession with ultra-thin machines to the point where they sacrifice functionality for form. By this I mean removing optical drives. New Flash...a large portion of the population still rely on CDs, DVDs and bluray for watching movies, loading software, and and listening to music. I know the fanboys will say these changes are "forward looking due to obsolete media formats", but if that was the case Apple would not be selling an external optical drive. Really? an external optical drive in 2013? Thats a huge step backward.

A half dozen years ago Apple was pretty much cutting edge I think with their designs and software, these days not so much.

How have they not changed for the better in the past two years?

iOS Maps was only a dismal failure for some. It has been great for me and I like to use it for navigation as well and serves its purpose.

Front Row was an awesome feature, but I have it on Lion and it's really easy to get it back on your machine.

Coverflow, although cool looking, has not affected me that much and don't consider it much of a loss.

I agree with you regarding the Optical Drives. I didn't like it when Phil said "if you want to live in the past" you can get an external optical drive. The issue I have with this is that I have Apple software that's on DVD that is only installable either by inserting it into an optical drive(either on the machine itself or on another one in order to share the ODD) or by cloning my current system onto a new machine. This sucks since the only software that I really want to keep with me is iWork.

I think they're still cutting edge.

NeverhadaPC · Feb 26, 2013

RedCroissant said:
I think they're still cutting edge.

I think that's because the MBA's are so thin

Joking aside, I find the cloud solution proposed by Apple (as a modern alternative to optical discs) a joke if you don't have fast internet and with FCC satisfied with Americans having 4 Mbps internet connections in 2020, then I will keep my local storage solution in place till then:
"The FCCs National Broadband Plan of March 2010 suggested that the minimum appropriate speed for every American household by 2020 should be 4 megabits per second for downloads and 1 Mbps for uploads."

Apple is relying on "smaller and thinner" to be driving customer demand (and I am sure they have the survey's to prove it), but I don't see how they can extract the same profits with increased competition from Samsung/Google. Once profit margins go down, stocks will slide (further) and Tim Cook will be hung out to dry as a "failure". Then a long sleuth of MBA's (business folks, not the thin computer) will try and fail to reinvigorate Apple... finally Apple will be sold off in chunks (computer, phones) to highest bidder. The end of Apple.

Of course, I am not Nostradamus and do not know what Apple has developed in secret for the next two-three years, but I think the Mac Pro (if it comes out) will be a good test of Apple's thirst for innovation.

RedCroissant · Feb 26, 2013

NeverhadaPC said:
I think that's because the MBA's are so thin

Joking aside, I find the cloud solution proposed by Apple (as a modern alternative to optical discs) a joke if you don't have fast internet and with FCC satisfied with Americans having 4 Mbps internet connections in 2020, then I will keep my local storage solution in place till then:
"The FCCs National Broadband Plan of March 2010 suggested that the minimum appropriate speed for every American household by 2020 should be 4 megabits per second for downloads and 1 Mbps for uploads."

Apple is relying on "smaller and thinner" to be driving customer demand (and I am sure they have the survey's to prove it), but I don't see how they can extract the same profits with increased competition from Samsung/Google. Once profit margins go down, stocks will slide (further) and Tim Cook will be hung out to dry as a "failure". Then a long sleuth of MBA's (business folks, not the thin computer) will try and fail to reinvigorate Apple... finally Apple will be sold off in chunks (computer, phones) to highest bidder. The end of Apple.

Of course, I am not Nostradamus and do not know what Apple has developed in secret for the next two-three years, but I think the Mac Pro (if it comes out) will be a good test of Apple's thirst for innovation.

The thing is that Apple isn't using the cloud as the main part of their computing environment or experience. It has always been advertised as a feature or option and as a backup; not the primary location of all your media. All of Apple's machines have enough local storage to suit the majority of users' needs. If Apple was going the route of a cloud-based OS or even primarily cloud-based, then they wouldn't be including large capacity drives in their machines at all. As an example, they now have a 128GB storage capacity for an iPad. That would not have happened if they wanted to move to a cloud-only experience.

They also have numerous ports on all of their machines for expandability with either other displays or storage. There would be absolutely no point in including usb 3.0 in their devices alongside Thunderbolt(the faster and more powerful I/O). The MBA itself has 2 usb 3.0 ports and a thunderbolt port. Move up the computer chain and they just add more I/O ports. Because of this, I seriously doubt that Apple is proposing a total cloud solution for their customers.

I also think that Apple knows that their customers prefer local storage. Otherwise, they would be making stuff like chrome books. The Google Pixel looks very nice and somewhat appealing; But when you look at the price, the fact that it runs Chrome OS, has very limited onboard storage, and requires WiFi or other data services(currently only 100MB/month of data through Verizon is included) to be useful, and no optical drive; it becomes less and less appealing. They also include 1TB of Google Drive storage for 3 years, but after that, you better find a local storage solution. Even they however include usb ports because they know people will want to rely on local storage as well.

And the thing with 4Mbps internet; that is more than sufficient for a large portion of the US population. That's enough for one or two devices to work online simultaneously with reasonable download and upload speeds.

ApfelKuchen · Feb 26, 2013

There's that old saying, "Art imitates life." Let's apply an evolutionary biologist's viewpoint to technology. Consider that biological evolution includes both revolutionary mutation and gradual evolution; a (successful) big change, followed by gradual adaptation/modification/optimization.

From a standpoint of cultural and political development? Constant revolution becomes debilitating. As in the Beatles' "Helter Skelter," it can be a breathless circle that goes nowhere. From a business standpoint? There's consumer push-back if the pace of change is too rapid. "Planned obsolescence," is rarely said in an admiring way.

It's damned near impossible to develop something that has no further need for improvement. Why not improve something that's already amazing? Despite the development of aviation, the lowly wheel continued to evolve (Wright Flyer of 1903, Ford Model T of 1908).

Yeah, evolution can be slow and boring. For those who adapt/adopt quickly, it's deadly boring. But maybe it's just impractical to expect one company to supply all the excitement in your life.

ucfgrad93 · Feb 26, 2013

Another "doom & gloom" post about Apple.

Sorry, but I don't see it.

aristobrat · Feb 26, 2013

NeverhadaPC said:
Around the time when Apple switched from Motorola chipsets ("G") to Intel and the iPod took center-stage, our Apple products began to suffer from un-Apple-like failures: "Superdrives", screens, batteries, overheating, trackpads, etc... My G4 PowerBook still runs today (10 years!), but family's 1st gen Intel MBP started sputtering after 3 years --- i.e. once past Apple Care. Same with my current laptop and the iMac G5... many (expensive) issues. I am willing to pay for quality... but Apple's computers are not of the same quality as before, yet price is still that of a luxury (high-quality) item.

With all of the notorious pre-Intel quality gaffes Apple had, I'm really not sure you can demonstrably say their quality then is better than now.

Quotes from a 2004 Macworld PowerBook G4 review --

And it appears -- knock on wood -- that the company has resolved the quality problems (with screens and latches) that marred many of last year's mobile Macs.

Last September's PowerBook updates, including the rollout of the first aluminum-clad 15-inch model, were tarnished by an unusual number of quality-control problems: white blotches on the screen, strange artifacts on some external monitors, latches that popped open spontaneously, and more.

Quotes from a 2003 Macworld 15-inch PowerBook G4 review --

We can't check the vital signs of every computer Apple ships. We can, however, report on the quality of the PowerBooks we've received, and that report is not encouraging. Of six 15-inch PowerBooks Macworld ordered from a non-Apple retailer, three had to be returned.

Issues with the Titanium PowerBook --

The hinges on the Titanium PowerBook display are notorious for breaking under typical use. Usually the hinge (which is shaped like an L) will break just to the left of where it attaches to the lower case on the right hinge, and just to the right on the left hinge (where the right hinge is on the right side of the computer when the optical drive is facing you).

Other notable issues with PowerBook G4s:

Some owners have experienced failure of the lower memory slot, with the typical repair being the replacement of the logic board. Apple had started a Repair Extension Program concerning the issue.

Apple previously had a Repair Extension Program to fix the "white spot" issue on its 15" PowerBook displays.

The 1.67 GHz model may suffer from manufacturing or design defects in its display. Initial reports pointed to this only being a problem with type M9689 17" PowerBooks introduced in Q2 2005, but then this problem was also seen in displays replaced by Apple Service Providers in this period (e.g. because of the bright spots issue). The devices were the last 17" models shipped with the matte 1440×900 pixel low resolution display. After many months of usage, the displays may show permanently shining lines of various colors stretching vertically across the LCD. Often this will start with 1-pixel wide vertical lines being "stuck" in an "always-on" mode.

Remember the iBooks?

In late November 2003, a number of iBook G3 users reported display problems with their laptops. In December 2003, a group of users headed by Michael Johnson and Bill Owen sought to file a class action suit against Apple. In response, Apple initiated the "iBook Logic Board Repair Extension Program" in January 2004, which covered the expense of repairing affected iBooks for three years. In June 2004, the Repair Extension Program was expanded to cover "all White G3 iBooks"

The iBook G4 seemed to suffer from display problems similar to those of the iBook G3, but was not covered by the repair extension program. Owners of iBooks that required expensive repairs for these problems submitted new class action lawsuits in December 2006.

And don't piss off the Danish folks!!!

After an investigation, Denmark's Consumer Complaints Board says it has found evidence that a design flaw in Apple's iBook G4 caused the notebooks to stop working after about a year of use.

The board's investigation found that turning the laptop on or off over time causes a solder joint to loosen and eventually separate, preventing current from flowing through the joint.

iMac G5 Capacitor issue

The iMac G5 suffers from a couple different manufacturing defects. The first being poor quality capacitors on the logic board. The second: bad power supplies (in most cases, this actually relates to bad capacitors as well). The capacitors in some models of the iMac G5 will swell and possibly leak with time. There’s really no way to predict it… Apple had released a set of serial numbers several years back that could have been ailed by this issue.

NeverhadaPC · Feb 26, 2013

aristobrat said:
With all of the notorious pre-Intel quality gaffes Apple had, I'm really not sure you can demonstrably say their quality then is better than now.

Quotes from a 2004 Macworld PowerBook G4 review --

And it appears -- knock on wood -- that the company has resolved the quality problems (with screens and latches) that marred many of last year's mobile Macs.

Last September's PowerBook updates, including the rollout of the first aluminum-clad 15-inch model, were tarnished by an unusual number of quality-control problems: white blotches on the screen, strange artifacts on some external monitors, latches that popped open spontaneously, and more.

Quotes from a 2003 Macworld 15-inch PowerBook G4 review --

We can't check the vital signs of every computer Apple ships. We can, however, report on the quality of the PowerBooks we've received, and that report is not encouraging. Of six 15-inch PowerBooks Macworld ordered from a non-Apple retailer, three had to be returned.

Issues with the Titanium PowerBook --

The hinges on the Titanium PowerBook display are notorious for breaking under typical use. Usually the hinge (which is shaped like an L) will break just to the left of where it attaches to the lower case on the right hinge, and just to the right on the left hinge (where the right hinge is on the right side of the computer when the optical drive is facing you).

Other notable issues with PowerBook G4s:

Some owners have experienced failure of the lower memory slot, with the typical repair being the replacement of the logic board. Apple had started a Repair Extension Program concerning the issue.

Apple previously had a Repair Extension Program to fix the "white spot" issue on its 15" PowerBook displays.

The 1.67 GHz model may suffer from manufacturing or design defects in its display. Initial reports pointed to this only being a problem with type M9689 17" PowerBooks introduced in Q2 2005, but then this problem was also seen in displays replaced by Apple Service Providers in this period (e.g. because of the bright spots issue). The devices were the last 17" models shipped with the matte 1440×900 pixel low resolution display. After many months of usage, the displays may show permanently shining lines of various colors stretching vertically across the LCD. Often this will start with 1-pixel wide vertical lines being "stuck" in an "always-on" mode.

Remember the iBooks?

In late November 2003, a number of iBook G3 users reported display problems with their laptops. In December 2003, a group of users headed by Michael Johnson and Bill Owen sought to file a class action suit against Apple. In response, Apple initiated the "iBook Logic Board Repair Extension Program" in January 2004, which covered the expense of repairing affected iBooks for three years. In June 2004, the Repair Extension Program was expanded to cover "all White G3 iBooks"

The iBook G4 seemed to suffer from display problems similar to those of the iBook G3, but was not covered by the repair extension program. Owners of iBooks that required expensive repairs for these problems submitted new class action lawsuits in December 2006.

And don't piss off the Danish folks!!!

After an investigation, Denmark's Consumer Complaints Board says it has found evidence that a design flaw in Apple's iBook G4 caused the notebooks to stop working after about a year of use.

The board's investigation found that turning the laptop on or off over time causes a solder joint to loosen and eventually separate, preventing current from flowing through the joint.

iMac G5 Capacitor issue

The iMac G5 suffers from a couple different manufacturing defects. The first being poor quality capacitors on the logic board. The second: bad power supplies (in most cases, this actually relates to bad capacitors as well). The capacitors in some models of the iMac G5 will swell and possibly leak with time. Theres really no way to predict it Apple had released a set of serial numbers several years back that could have been ailed by this issue.

WOW! Well documented. The iMac G5 issue I fully experiences with iMac right after AppleCare ended. That was the first Mac I ever had that failed to work. My 2003 PowerBook G4 still works for internet email...

Notice how these quality issues coincide with development of early iPods... has Apple taken the eye off its ball regarding computers. I think so...

"They also have numerous ports on all of their machines for expandability with either other displays or storage. There would be absolutely no point in including usb 3.0 in their devices alongside Thunderbolt(the faster and more powerful I/O). The MBA itself has 2 usb 3.0 ports and a thunderbolt port. Move up the computer chain and they just add more I/O ports. Because of this, I seriously doubt that Apple is proposing a total cloud solution for their customers."

Good points, here. But with devices such as AppleTV and syncing/backing up iPhones/media through Wifi, I see apple as moving towards cloud solutions for media handling and digital security/backup.

4 Mbps is not enough if you're streaming off Netflix in one room and playing online/streaming in another... I am on "up to" 6 Mbps, which is 2-3 Mbps 90% of the time... Netflix/Streams require my family to cease all other activities (minus emails) to avoid buffering...

RedCroissant · Feb 26, 2013

NeverhadaPC said:
Good points, here. But with devices such as AppleTV and syncing/backing up iPhones/media through Wifi, I see apple as moving towards cloud solutions for media handling and digital security/backup.

4 Mbps is not enough if you're streaming off Netflix in one room and playing online/streaming in another... I am on "up to" 6 Mbps, which is 2-3 Mbps 90% of the time... Netflix/Streams require my family to cease all other activities (minus emails) to avoid buffering...

Are you serious now or are you grasping at straws? You think that the ability to sync iOS devices over WiFi signifies a move to a cloud-dependent ecosystem? I sync my iPhone and my iPad over WiFi, but I also sync them to the hard drive on my iPad and keep the backups on my iMac. What this leads me to believe is that Apple wants to decrease the number of wires that are required to use their products(something that they have done for the majority of their existence as a corporation). The fact that I don't have to have everything connected to my iMac via the usb cables is great! I can have my iPad charging in the kitchen out of my kids' hands and have it sync when it should or easily change things on my iMac to have it setup or restore. How awesome is that?

And AppleTV is quite simply just like any Netflix-enabled device that you can buy these days. I have a blu-ray player now(awesome by the way) that has netflix/vudu/youtube included. Does that mean that Phillips is moving to a cloud-based ecosystem? The beauty of AppleTV is that it allows for easy transfer and streaming of your already-owned content(stored on your local machine) to a television. This equals absolutely awesome.

4Mbps might not be enough for you and your family, but for many people in the U.S., 4Mbps is more than enough for their daily computing needs.

What I think is a more appropriate argument is that Apple is shifting its focus toward designing and manufacturing computers and other devices that can more readily take advantage of emerging technology. If this involves increasing the interval between evolutionary leaps on technological achievement; fine. I am not the type that needs the newest and biggest and purportedly best device as soon as it comes out. I get what suits my needs(both for the present and for the near future).

Their devices are getting thinner and thinner and yet the storage capacity of EVERY device they make is only INCREASING due to the advantages of SSD technology and high-capacity platter drives. To make your position and prediction more plausible, we should be observing the opposite.

NeverhadaPC · Feb 27, 2013

RedCroissant said:
Are you serious now or are you grasping at straws? You think that the ability to sync iOS devices over WiFi signifies a move to a cloud-dependent ecosystem? I sync my iPhone and my iPad over WiFi, but I also sync them to the hard drive on my iPad and keep the backups on my iMac. What this leads me to believe is that Apple wants to decrease the number of wires that are required to use their products(something that they have done for the majority of their existence as a corporation). The fact that I don't have to have everything connected to my iMac via the usb cables is great! I can have my iPad charging in the kitchen out of my kids' hands and have it sync when it should or easily change things on my iMac to have it setup or restore. How awesome is that?

And AppleTV is quite simply just like any Netflix-enabled device that you can buy these days. I have a blu-ray player now(awesome by the way) that has netflix/vudu/youtube included. Does that mean that Phillips is moving to a cloud-based ecosystem? The beauty of AppleTV is that it allows for easy transfer and streaming of your already-owned content(stored on your local machine) to a television. This equals absolutely awesome.

4Mbps might not be enough for you and your family, but for many people in the U.S., 4Mbps is more than enough for their daily computing needs.

What I think is a more appropriate argument is that Apple is shifting its focus toward designing and manufacturing computers and other devices that can more readily take advantage of emerging technology. If this involves increasing the interval between evolutionary leaps on technological achievement; fine. I am not the type that needs the newest and biggest and purportedly best device as soon as it comes out. I get what suits my needs(both for the present and for the near future).

Their devices are getting thinner and thinner and yet the storage capacity of EVERY device they make is only INCREASING due to the advantages of SSD technology and high-capacity platter drives. To make your position and prediction more plausible, we should be observing the opposite.

Wow. I concede on the cloud position. I can now see Apple's purpose more clearly. Thanks!

I still, however, do not foresee Apple be as innovative as in the past and with increased competition, Apple's business model begins to fall apart. Apple has enjoyed a niche market in the past where it more or less set its own prices [i.e. enjoyed a healthy profit margin, which allows them to be more risky in development and led to innovation]. Now, competition in it's main revenue sector [iPhones/iPad] will bring down prices and revenues... so innovation becomes too risky. Without innovation Apple is just Microsoft 2.0. The end of Apple.

righteye · Feb 27, 2013

I'm just grateful that there is an alternative, i have enjoyed my Apple products immensely and the move to Apple about 6 years ago was a good decision.
Apple have a lot more competition now than a few years ago, Apple were the benchmark but the others have raised their game to match or maybe even exceed Apple so to maintain that special appeal will be hard, as for innovation Apple will really have to try hard to keep ahead or they may well find the next big innovation comes from some where else and that could change the whole thing as we know it.
Personally one area i would like to see Apple make more effort is sound/Audio the iMac for example rather than having been obsessed with the thin thing it would have been much better if they could have incorporated an amazing sound system that used the stand as a bass horn or something along those lines and the shapes required for this could be quite stunning. Get B&W to help them.
The ability to have a good DAC would be nice (put it where the second HD/SSD drive goes and it could be an upgrade option.
All this can be done with separate devices but i think it would cool to have it all in one stunning package.

Carl Sagan · Feb 27, 2013

AppleDeviceUser said:
None of that is true. Apple has guaranteed a new Mac Pro in 2013. Besides, why would you want them to upgrade it 1 year after you bought a $20,000 Computer!

Because he's an idiot?

NeverhadaPC · Feb 28, 2013

righteye said:
Personally one area i would like to see Apple make more effort is sound/Audio the iMac for example rather than having been obsessed with the thin thing it would have been much better if they could have incorporated an amazing sound system that used the stand as a bass horn or something along those lines and the shapes required for this could be quite stunning. Get B&W to help them.
The ability to have a good DAC would be nice (put it where the second HD/SSD drive goes and it could be an upgrade option.
All this can be done with separate devices but i think it would cool to have it all in one stunning package.

That's an interesting concept. Even top of the line flat-screens struggle with audio and, personally, I prefer designated systems for audio to:
1) Improve the experience
2) Improve life time of TV/Display/computer... bass on display cannot be good for it.

I have a pair of good Bose and NOCS headphones (MBP, iPhone), Bose 2-speaker system (Mm), and 5.1 Sony surround sound (46" Samsung LCDTV)... makes music so much better!

I remember when the alienesque Harman Kardon speakers came out and I saw them in the Apple Store... always wanted to buy it, but never did

Hail Caesar · Mar 3, 2013

Blah, blah, blah, Apple is fine and isn't going anywhere. Their products are awesome, forum posting doom and gloom won't change it, deal.

TheHateMachine · Mar 4, 2013

Hail Caesar said:
Blah, blah, blah, Apple is fine and isn't going anywhere. Their products are awesome, forum posting doom and gloom won't change it, deal.

Blah, blah, blah, didn't read OP or comprehend the point. Could have replaced your post with TLDR.

Hail Caesar · Mar 4, 2013

TheHateMachine said:
Blah, blah, blah, didn't read OP or comprehend the point. Could have replaced your post with TLDR.

blah blah blah, sure blah blah

Kissaragi · Mar 4, 2013

I read the short version thoroughly and I disagreed with that so I thought I'd skip the long version.

maxosx · Mar 4, 2013

ucfgrad93 said:
Another "doom & gloom" post about Apple. Sorry, but I don't see it.

Doom & Gloom is a salacious talking point. Negative comments press some people's buttons & they smile

Then a war of words breaks out & the naysayers are thrilled

astrorider · Mar 4, 2013

NeverhadaPC said:
Long (ranty) story:
Dear all,

In the early 90s, I was the only kid in my class with a Mac and it never crashed.

Perhaps your judgement is tainted by owning the only Mac running System 7 that never crashed!

The end of Apple (as we know it)

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