Register FAQ / Rules Forum Spy Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old May 8, 2013, 12:05 PM   #101
Sedulous
macrumors 65816
 
Sedulous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mord View Post
Even if you could I don't think anyone would bother to do so. Chromosomes really don't matter a damn practically speaking and I don't think they're a valid measure for what counts as a "cure".
You may not think "chromosomes matter a damn" but in fact they very much do. They contain all the instructions for building you and are the foundation on which everything else rests. How your mind develops is a different story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mord View Post
I don't see the relevance here, why should the stage of development things go awry matter much? It's fairly observable that gender differences establish around 2-4. Again, Your sense of biological fundamentalism seems to be driving this point, I wasn't born with any intent, I was what I was and I grew up to be who I am. If you define "cured" as to be made ordinary then you and I are not using the same definitions of the word.
Stage matters because it suggests transgender identity manifests itself as a result of environmental cues and not because of a disrupted genetic program. "Environment" does not specifically mean intentional acts, chemicals, or psychological manipulation. Why not be more open to the possibility that somewhere in this there is a clue as to why some people feel their body fails to match their mind? If a true cause were resolved, treatments far more meaningful than crude surgery/hormone therapy could be offered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mord View Post
Were I completely convinced that offering such treatment for those with other dysmorphias was equally effective, I'd say so, I'm not especially convinced of this and I do not see the value in exclaiming inequality where trans healthcare improves without parity for other dysmorphias. Having looked into the subject a little I notice that BDD is often well treated with medication, this isn't the case at all with gender dysphoria.
I admit that psychology is not my speciality. Is there clear evidence that transgender identity is truly different than body dysmorphias? There is no physiological reason that comes to mind but you obviously have seen evidence to the contrary. Care to explain?
Sedulous is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old May 8, 2013, 12:14 PM   #102
lannister80
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Chicagoland
Quote:
Originally Posted by dukebound85 View Post
True but I would argue a sex change is not critical health care, whereas surgery to say reconstruct your leg is. Just my opinion
Would you say mental health care is critical health care? Because that's what this is.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by dukebound85 View Post
I view "sex change" in the same class of elective surgery as lasik, plastic surgery, etc, which is not covered by practically all health plans
Um, no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder

Imagine you woke up one day with in the body of the opposite gender. Would you consider it "cosmetic" to get it changed back? Because that's what these people feel like, except they've felt it for most of their lives.
__________________
Early 2008 Mac Pro, 8x2.8GHz, 3.25TB, 18GB RAM
UnRAID NAS, 9TB storage, 3TB parity, 400GB cache
lannister80 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old May 8, 2013, 12:20 PM   #103
eawmp1
macrumors 601
 
eawmp1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: FL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedulous View Post
I admit that psychology is not my speciality...
Gender Identity Disorder/Gender Dysphoria is viewed VERY differently than BDD in the psychatric literature. I suggest you do some reading up on the differences.

And while DNA matters, it is not manifest destiny. As for the brain development, there myriad influnces that affect the developing brain in utero. People who have GID likely have some alteration in the developing brain that makes them identify with the gender opposite their assignment. Therapy and medications are not going to change that reality. You might as well suggest "curing" homosexuality.
eawmp1 is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old May 8, 2013, 12:26 PM   #104
lannister80
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Chicagoland
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedulous View Post
The irrefutable truth of the matter is no amount of surgery truly can change whatever sex chromosomes you were born with.
Which apparently have a lot less to do with sexual attraction and gender identification than "common sense" seems to indicate, given the fact that people with Gender Dismorphia and Homosexuality, you know, EXIST.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedulous View Post
You were born to be a specific sex but something diverted the gender identity away from that.
Says who? How do you know it's not possible to be mentally female, but physically male (or vice versa), from conception onward? This is the same BS people have been saying about homosexuality for forever, and it's just as false in this context.
__________________
Early 2008 Mac Pro, 8x2.8GHz, 3.25TB, 18GB RAM
UnRAID NAS, 9TB storage, 3TB parity, 400GB cache
lannister80 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old May 8, 2013, 01:30 PM   #105
Shrink
macrumors Demi-God
 
Shrink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New England, USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryPot View Post
I understand. And I kind of understand what their goal is by "changing" their sex.

But I don't think they really accept who they are, since they are not happy with their original body. Hence my doubt if it is not better to help them love the body they have, instead of trying to change it.
You express an opinion (to which you are, of course, entitled). I am interested the basis of the opinions in terms of the depth and breadth of your study in the area of human sexuality and your clinical experience in working with transsexual individuals in a clinical setting.
__________________
Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -- Albert Einstein
Shrink is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old May 8, 2013, 03:18 PM   #106
Sedulous
macrumors 65816
 
Sedulous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by lannister80 View Post
Which apparently have a lot less to do with sexual attraction and gender identification than "common sense" seems to indicate, given the fact that people with Gender Dismorphia and Homosexuality, you know, EXIST.


Says who? How do you know it's not possible to be mentally female, but physically male (or vice versa), from conception onward? This is the same BS people have been saying about homosexuality for forever, and it's just as false in this context.
I did not intend to indicate that chromosomes dictate gender. Gender is epigenetic and I have attempted to make that clear.
Sedulous is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old May 8, 2013, 03:52 PM   #107
Sedulous
macrumors 65816
 
Sedulous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by eawmp1 View Post
Gender Identity Disorder/Gender Dysphoria is viewed VERY differently than BDD in the psychatric literature. I suggest you do some reading up on the differences.
Indeed, there probably are differences from a psychological perspective. I cannot offer a great deal of insight in that regard. It seems as though more posts are focused on the subjective "gender" side. Gender and how that develops apart from the objective genetic programming that orchestrates early cortical development is what appears to be the point of contention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eawmp1 View Post
And while DNA matters, it is not manifest destiny. As for the brain development, there myriad influnces that affect the developing brain in utero. People who have GID likely have some alteration in the developing brain that makes them identify with the gender opposite their assignment. Therapy and medications are not going to change that reality. You might as well suggest "curing" homosexuality.
Late development of the brain is when environment begins to influence the sculpting of neuronal populations, connections, and arealization. Only then is it possible for a gender to begin to establish itself. Again, you are born a specific sex. Whether that continues to be paired with gender is likely a result of environment (as your post appears to acknowledge). How sex and gender might diverge is unclear. Asserting that this divergence is unavoidable seems unwise. It probably is not possible to change the developmental influences that have already caused individuals to be transgender. Yet it would be irrational to assume there is no way to identify the cause. Such knowledge is the only way to prevent unborn individuals from developing a similar condition.
Sedulous is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old May 8, 2013, 05:20 PM   #108
lannister80
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Chicagoland
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedulous View Post
I did not intend to indicate that chromosomes dictate gender. Gender is epigenetic and I have attempted to make that clear.
Wait, are you saying physical gender is epigenetic? That's obviously not right (at least in mammals).

But to your point: We don't even know that gender identity is epigenetic. It could be straight-up genetically/DNA determined; we don't know. Same goes for homosexuality.
__________________
Early 2008 Mac Pro, 8x2.8GHz, 3.25TB, 18GB RAM
UnRAID NAS, 9TB storage, 3TB parity, 400GB cache
lannister80 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old May 8, 2013, 05:38 PM   #109
Sedulous
macrumors 65816
 
Sedulous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by lannister80 View Post
Wait, are you saying physical gender is epigenetic? That's obviously not right (at least in mammals).

But to your point: We don't even know that gender identity is epigenetic. It could be straight-up genetically/DNA determined; we don't know. Same goes for homosexuality.
Gender is not encoded in the genome.
Sedulous is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old May 8, 2013, 05:53 PM   #110
xShane
macrumors 6502a
 
xShane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: United States
So I know conservatives are getting really mad over this... but honestly, what's the big deal?

If you don't like it, you don't have to pay the tuition and go there. It's as simple as that.
__________________
Macbook Pro 15" 2.6, 8GB, 750GB, 1GB VRAM
"Everything for the people, nothing by the people."

"Be the change that you wish to see in the world."
xShane is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old May 9, 2013, 10:12 AM   #111
lannister80
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Chicagoland
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedulous View Post
Gender is not encoded in the genome.
BZZT, try again:

"epigenetics is the study of changes in gene expression or cellular phenotype, caused by mechanisms other than changes in the underlying DNA sequence"

The underlying DNA sequence is what determines which hormones and such are produced early in fetal development, which in turn cause the sex organs to organize in one way or another (or sometimes both).

A good, actual example of epigenetics would be certain reptiles whose gender is determined (at least partially) by incubation temperature. Or calico cats, whose color is determined by random X-inactivation.
__________________
Early 2008 Mac Pro, 8x2.8GHz, 3.25TB, 18GB RAM
UnRAID NAS, 9TB storage, 3TB parity, 400GB cache
lannister80 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old May 9, 2013, 11:08 AM   #112
SLC Flyfishing
macrumors 65816
 
SLC Flyfishing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Quote:
Originally Posted by lannister80 View Post
BZZT, try again:

"epigenetics is the study of changes in gene expression or cellular phenotype, caused by mechanisms other than changes in the underlying DNA sequence"
And Sedulous is pointing out that Gender is (at least at this point in time) thought to be an epigenetic phenomenon. Epigenetics do not affect the genome, they definitely affect the expression of genes of the genome, but they do not change the pattern of nucleotides in those genes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lannister80 View Post
The underlying DNA sequence is what determines which hormones and such are produced early in fetal development, which in turn cause the sex organs to organize in one way or another (or sometimes both).
And this is a perfect example of why Sex is a function of the genome, while gender is thought to be at best an epigenetic phenomenon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lannister80 View Post
A good, actual example of epigenetics would be certain reptiles whose gender is determined (at least partially) by incubation temperature. Or calico cats, whose color is determined by random X-inactivation.
Yes and no, all the studies I've ever read have indicated that sex/gender in reptiles that are temperature-dependent can be either Genotypic or Phenotypic. Some species use temperature to select for survival of a specific gender, other species use temperature to determine genotype, still others use temperature to determine phenotype. But get this, in the individuals with sex/gender mismatch, their sex organs are fully functional, but opposite of their genotype.

So this is different than humans in that patients with GID do not have fully functioning, normal genetalia that doesn't match their genotype. They either have genetalia that matches their genetic sex, or they have ambiguous genetalia due to genetic mutation (which in a way still matches their genotype).

The only thing that can be considered possibly epigenetic in humans with respect to sex/gender is gender identity. And that's really based on theory more than anything as far as I can tell.

Last edited by SLC Flyfishing; May 9, 2013 at 12:04 PM.
SLC Flyfishing is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old May 9, 2013, 11:24 AM   #113
Mord
macrumors Demi-Goddess
 
Mord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Old York
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedulous View Post
I admit that psychology is not my speciality
No ****.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedulous View Post
Care to explain?
Not in the slightest.


I'm glad some other posters have pulled you up on a few things, I don't have the energy myself and you seem to have zero interest in actually engaging in any kind of meaningful exchange of ideas.
Mord is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old May 9, 2013, 11:50 AM   #114
skottichan
macrumors 6502a
 
skottichan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Columbus, OH
Send a message via AIM to skottichan Send a message via MSN to skottichan
Also, let's not forget, gender reassignment surgery isn't exclusive to transgendered people. Some of us are what's classified as "intersexed", and in some cases need GRS as well.

Here's a question to Sedulous, how should an intersex person express themselves, gender-wise?

As a person who's struggled with this for 35 years, I'm curious what your medical opinion of how I should express my "gender role".
skottichan is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old May 9, 2013, 02:31 PM   #115
lannister80
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Chicagoland
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLC Flyfishing View Post
And Sedulous is pointing out that Gender is (at least at this point in time) thought to be an epigenetic phenomenon. Epigenetics do not affect the genome, they definitely affect the expression of genes of the genome, but they do not change the pattern of nucleotides in those genes.
Couldn't one then say that every organism's phenotype is almost entirely determined by epigenetics? If we're defining any external, non-genotype-changing disruption to this chain:

genotype --> gene expression --> gene products (proteins, RNA, whatever) --> (snip) --> production of an androgen to determine gender

as epigenetics, then pretty much any phenotype change is epigenetics...right?

Noxious inputs can easily disrupt gene expression, or cause proteins to misfold, etc...is the mere *possibility* of phenotype changes due to non-genotype changes make for "epigenetics"?
__________________
Early 2008 Mac Pro, 8x2.8GHz, 3.25TB, 18GB RAM
UnRAID NAS, 9TB storage, 3TB parity, 400GB cache
lannister80 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old May 9, 2013, 02:40 PM   #116
Shrink
macrumors Demi-God
 
Shrink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New England, USA
I want to say this carefully, as it is not my intent to be offensive or rude to the other posters.

First, I must say that the discussion of genomes, epigenetic phenomena, etc. is over my head.

What I am not clear about is what it all means when a very unhappy, possibly suicidal, person is sitting in front of you in your office begging for sexual reassignment surgery because their life is miserable as a result of the experience of living in the wrong body.

Once again, I'm not being sarcastic...I'm not sure how this discussion relates to the issue of paying for sexual reassignment surgery, and the life experience of the transgender individual.
__________________
Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -- Albert Einstein

Last edited by Shrink; May 9, 2013 at 05:13 PM.
Shrink is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old May 10, 2013, 01:11 AM   #117
Mord
macrumors Demi-Goddess
 
Mord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Old York
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrink View Post
Once again, I'm not being sarcastic...I'm not sure how this discussion relates to the issue of paying for sexual reassignment surgery, and the life experience of the transgender individual.
It doesn't in the slightest, you make an extremely good point, though thankfully we don't have to cry and beg as the world has moved on from those times .

My somewhat curt earlier reply was in frustration at Sedulous's blind refusal to see outside the domain of his field.

Take this gem for example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedulous
You may not think "chromosomes matter a damn" but in fact they very much do. They contain all the instructions for building you and are the foundation on which everything else rests. How your mind develops is a different story
The context is utterly missed, chromosomes don't matter a damn to trans people, I don't think they on a personal level matter to most, do you know what yours are for sure? I don't.

As other posters have pointed out, there's a huge difference in the diagnostic pathology. Plus the whole talk of a "true cure" still disturbs me. He won't define what he means by it and I can only think what he has in mind would cause a significant personality change. I don't feel it would be possible myself, but the idea is still extremely ugly.
Mord is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old May 10, 2013, 01:14 AM   #118
Merkava_4
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryPot View Post
I haven't seen more than 2-3, but in my opinion, you can never fully disguise your real sex.

Besides, some parts of your sex can't change. The most important one being your genitalia.

I've never met anyone who was changed their sex, but I think in the long run their internal problems of wanting to change will still be there, since a true change can never be reached.

Wouldn't it be more beneficial to try and help them with accepting who they are?
These people are different than gay people; they actually feel like they're in the wrong body. Sometimes they realize it early on in life, sometimes not until their teens. I've watched a lot of male to female videos. After a year of hormone replacement therapy, they already look like authentic females, and then after the reassignment surgery, the only thing that might possibly give them away is their voice; everything else looks completely female.
Merkava_4 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old May 10, 2013, 02:37 AM   #119
Mord
macrumors Demi-Goddess
 
Mord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Old York
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryPot View Post
I haven't seen more than 2-3, but in my opinion, you can never fully disguise your real sex.
I can't be bothered to take your other crap to task but I have to laugh at this.

So, you've seen 2-3, and from that you say that you can *never* disguise your "real" sex. You do realised that you've undoubtably seen way way more than 2-3, the ones you've noticed are just those you've noticed.

Hell, I've seen 2-3 in one day and there's no way I'm seeing all of them, I'm not even on the lookout I just imagine I have a better eye than you do. Your mentality only really dose those of us who are invisible a favour, it's just a shame those who have no choice, or choose to be noticeable have to deal with your attitude.
Mord is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old May 10, 2013, 09:27 AM   #120
HarryPot
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mord View Post
I can't be bothered to take your other crap to task but I have to laugh at this.

So, you've seen 2-3, and from that you say that you can *never* disguise your "real" sex. You do realised that you've undoubtably seen way way more than 2-3, the ones you've noticed are just those you've noticed.

Hell, I've seen 2-3 in one day and there's no way I'm seeing all of them, I'm not even on the lookout I just imagine I have a better eye than you do. Your mentality only really dose those of us who are invisible a favour, it's just a shame those who have no choice, or choose to be noticeable have to deal with your attitude.
Yet you reply to my post....

And I fail to understand how an opinion (in a discussion forum) which didn't include any insults makes you judge me so easily. It's not an attitude, it's an opinion.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrink View Post
You express an opinion (to which you are, of course, entitled). I am interested the basis of the opinions in terms of the depth and breadth of your study in the area of human sexuality and your clinical experience in working with transsexual individuals in a clinical setting.
Not much direct investigation or experiences. Just a thought that came to my mind.
HarryPot is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old May 10, 2013, 09:39 AM   #121
tshrimp
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrink View Post
I want to say this carefully, as it is not my intent to be offensive or rude to the other posters.

First, I must say that the discussion of genomes, epigenetic phenomena, etc. is over my head.

What I am not clear about is what it all means when a very unhappy, possibly suicidal, person is sitting in front of you in your office begging for sexual reassignment surgery because their life is miserable as a result of the experience of living in the wrong body.

Once again, I'm not being sarcastic...I'm not sure how this discussion relates to the issue of paying for sexual reassignment surgery, and the life experience of the transgender individual.
I agree. This stuff is over my head (but cool to read). Was wondering though in the case above....do we treat the mind or the body? And how does insurance look at gender? If a man has this done and is now a woman they still have an XY chromosome I assume, and therefore have male medical issues?

Last edited by tshrimp; May 10, 2013 at 09:45 AM.
tshrimp is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old May 10, 2013, 10:28 AM   #122
Shrink
macrumors Demi-God
 
Shrink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New England, USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
I agree. This stuff is over my head (but cool to read). Was wondering though in the case above....do we treat the mind or the body? And how does insurance look at gender? If a man has this done and is now a woman they still have an XY chromosome I assume, and therefore have male medical issues?
Treatment is both help with coping with a world which doesn't not understand the individual, denigrates and mocks him/her, and work on other issues involved in concerns re: the upcoming (or ongoing) physical treatment. An appropriate referral to a transgender oriented medical program is necessary, if the person is not already enrolled in a program. Just to note that not all transgender individuals elect to go for the sexual reassignment surgery, and are satisfied with hormonal tx. In short...it's "mental" and physical.

Another note...there are only a few programs extant in the US that do sexual reassignment surgery. They are very difficult to ge in to, and require extremely extensive psych and physical evaluation before one might be considered for acceptance into the progam and receive the surgery.

This whole issue of male vs female medical issues is a bit of a straw man, as is the whole XY thing. While it is certainly the case that there are medical issues that are gender specific, in situations like this the approach is holistic...in the non-New Age meaning of the word. The individual is treat as an integrated whole, and issues that arise ("male" or "female") are dealt with. Granted, in a male>female transition, there is little need for Pap smears, the individual is treated for medical issues by the appropriate specialist...but one who has particular knowledge of issues specific to transgender individuals.

Remember, males with breast cancer, typically considered a "female" issue, are treated by the appropriate specialist (e.g. Oncologist), and not an Ob/Gyn.
__________________
Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -- Albert Einstein
Shrink is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2013, 12:54 PM   #123
Mord
macrumors Demi-Goddess
 
Mord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Old York
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryPot View Post
Yet you reply to my post....

And I fail to understand how an opinion (in a discussion forum) which didn't include any insults makes you judge me so easily. It's not an attitude, it's an opinion.
I don't see how it's strange that I did given what I said?

I didn't insult you, I consider your opinions highly dubious and I pointed out an obvious hole in your logic.
Mord is offline   0 Reply With Quote

Reply
MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:11 AM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC