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Old Jun 26, 2013, 07:56 AM   #26
ugahairydawgs
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Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
So you think access to college shouldn't take anything into account beyond grades?
I feel getting into a major university should be based on your previous scholastic achievements (grades, test scores, extracurriculars). I think less qualified students should work their way up in community colleges and vocational schools. Putting a student who doesn't have the academic qualifications to handle to the rigors of a major university in that type of environment is setting them up for failure.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 10:32 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
I feel getting into a major university should be based on your previous scholastic achievements (grades, test scores, extracurriculars). I think less qualified students should work their way up in community colleges and vocational schools. Putting a student who doesn't have the academic qualifications to handle to the rigors of a major university in that type of environment is setting them up for failure.
What I don't get is how this applies to affirmative action? From what I know most universities don't "push" less qualified students into their universities. Even community colleges have standards, and won't accept less qualified students if they don't meet the basic requirements.

This post is moot.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 12:05 PM   #28
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I feel getting into a major university should be based on your previous scholastic achievements (grades, test scores, extracurriculars).
The problem is that middle class kids are much more likely to do well at this stuff - even if the working class kids are just as clever. How is that fair?
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 12:51 PM   #29
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The problem is that middle class kids are much more likely to do well at this stuff - even if the working class kids are just as clever. How is that fair?
Its not....but we can't change their academic background by throwing them into a large university setting and telling them good luck. If they aren't ready for that they can (and most likely will) fail and that can have disastrous implications going forward.

Local school districts need to get better, parents need to get better, teachers need to get better, and the importance of a good education needs to be better instilled into students early on in their school careers. Until things start improving across the board....nothing is going to change. And throwing a bunch of unqualified students into an intense academic setting is like asking me or you to take the mound for game 7 of the World Series. We're just inviting failure into the equation.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 01:24 PM   #30
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Its not....but we can't change their academic background by throwing them into a large university setting and telling them good luck. If they aren't ready for that they can (and most likely will) fail and that can have disastrous implications going forward.

Local school districts need to get better, parents need to get better, teachers need to get better, and the importance of a good education needs to be better instilled into students early on in their school careers. Until things start improving across the board....nothing is going to change. And throwing a bunch of unqualified students into an intense academic setting is like asking me or you to take the mound for game 7 of the World Series. We're just inviting failure into the equation.
I must be in your ignore list because I've said and proved multiple times that the situation you describe isn't happening.

If it is it's on a case by case basis and isn't solely based on academics and/or race.

Or should I let the off topic discussion continue?
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 01:30 PM   #31
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I must be in your ignore list because I've said and proved multiple times that the situation you describe isn't happening.

If it is it's on a case by case basis and isn't solely based on academics and/or race.

Or should I let the off topic discussion continue?
We're having a hypothetical discussion based on this question.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...1&postcount=22
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 01:32 PM   #32
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So, you really believe that the effects of centuries of slavery and racism in this country have been erased completely and that all people of color have the same rights and opportunities as white folks? Would you care to provide some support for your stance, or is this just your opinion?
The race card is played much to often. And yes, we have the same rights and opportunities as "white folks".
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 01:34 PM   #33
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Its not....but we can't change their academic background by throwing them into a large university setting and telling them good luck. If they aren't ready for that they can (and most likely will) fail and that can have disastrous implications going forward.
Obviously, but at the end of the day a coddled middle class kid could easily have the same issues.

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And throwing a bunch of unqualified students into an intense academic setting
I'm not saying you should throw an unqualified student into an intense academic setting, I'm saying you take background into account and if their grades are slightly lower you still let them come. Which is what taking economic circumstance into account would do.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 01:35 PM   #34
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My goodness. To think that
Why the edit? Or did you think a sample size of one was on reflection a poor basis for your argument?
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 01:39 PM   #35
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Why the edit? Or did you think a sample size of one was on reflection a poor basis for your argument?
People edit in order to rephrase, etc. I assume you do this. I didn't even mean to hit enter as you could tell I never even finished typing. You can now go back and read it as it has been fully edited.

I even edited again here, to add more.

So you think that people should get into school based in part on race? Sounds unfair to me. But hey if you think one group of people should be able to get something another group can't then I guess this is your view.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 01:40 PM   #36
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The race card is played much to often. And yes, we have the same rights and opportunities as "white folks".
Of the same socio-economic standing I'm inclined to agree.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 01:50 PM   #37
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I'm not saying you should throw an unqualified student into an intense academic setting, I'm saying you take background into account and if their grades are slightly lower you still let them come. Which is what taking economic circumstance into account would do.
Gotcha. I'm fine with it so long as the differences are marginal. But then we're back to the same problem as before.....how do they pay for it? I like how the armed forces do it with paying for college in exchange for x years of service. Something similar for that in exchange for serving as a teacher or social worker in a low income area would be a good start. Of course it would be hard to apply that to all programs of study....so I'm not sure how to expand that too far.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 01:57 PM   #38
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But then we're back to the same problem as before.....how do they pay for it?
Scholarships, taxation etc. etc.

I think the conservative position that we should have equality of opportunity but not outcome is a very respectable position, but you do actually have to make a serious attempt to have equality of opportunity.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 02:23 PM   #39
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We're having a hypothetical discussion based on this question.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...1&postcount=22
AH, got it. Sorry about that. Hope I didn't butt in too much.

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The race card is played much to often. And yes, we have the same rights and opportunities as "white folks".
The real problem is that when others play the race card, or the other "cards" in their deck no one has a problem with it.

No . . . . much of the nation agrees that "we" don't have the same rights and opportunities as "white folks." There's probably a large portion of the nations that understands that "we" may never get that far either.

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.....how do they pay for it? I like how the armed forces do it with paying for college in exchange for x years of service. Something similar for that in exchange for serving as a teacher or social worker in a low income area would be a good start. Of course it would be hard to apply that to all programs of study....so I'm not sure how to expand that too far.
The great part about this is that it's done to a good extent in many areas. I know teacher loan forgiveness is a very welcomed proposition, and encourages graduates in education to teach at less advantaged yet promising schools.

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but you do actually have to make a serious attempt to have equality of opportunity.
In the spirit of "keeping it real" I doubt we'll ever see an equality of opportunity. What I'd like to see is more an an equality of resistance, i.e. no institution established that knowingly or unknowingly holds back an individual from achieving what they want.

I may be reading too much into your statement . . . . I think we are trying to say the same thing.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 03:21 PM   #40
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In the spirit of "keeping it real" I doubt we'll ever see an equality of opportunity. What I'd like to see is more an an equality of resistance, i.e. no institution established that knowingly or unknowingly holds back an individual from achieving what they want.
I agree completely.

----------

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The real problem is that when others play the race card, or the other "cards" in their deck no one has a problem with it.

No . . . . much of the nation agrees that "we" don't have the same rights and opportunities as "white folks." There's probably a large portion of the nations that understands that "we" may never get that far either.
I would have thought that a black middle class kid has pretty similar life chances to a white middle class kid these days.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 03:26 PM   #41
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I agree completely.
Good . . . only because that means I didn't over/under reach your statement.

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I would have thought that a black middle class kid has pretty similar life chances to a white middle class kid these days.
They do, but there are still obstacles that child will have to face. Not that no one ever does, but there are some specific to race that will effect even a well off individual.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 04:18 PM   #42
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The race card is played much to often. And yes, we have the same rights and opportunities as "white folks".
Outcomes would disagree with your somewhat blithe assessment.

----------

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I would have thought that a black middle class kid has pretty similar life chances to a white middle class kid these days.
...and yours
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Old Jun 27, 2013, 10:40 AM   #43
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"Texas law guarantees that students who graduate in the top 10 percent of their class get in. The other 25 percent, those not in the top 10 percent, are admitted under a system that includes grades, board scores, essays and other factors like leadership, awards, community activities, economic circumstances and race."
If diversity is an important standard (it is), I have no problem with this formula.
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