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Old May 12, 2013, 01:23 PM   #76
Dmunjal
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Originally Posted by NT1440 View Post
Like dragons, the free market DOES NOT EXIST in the real world.
It's easy to argue the negative. Show me why moving to "freer" markets wouldn't be better than what we have now.
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Old May 12, 2013, 03:26 PM   #77
NT1440
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Originally Posted by Dmunjal View Post
It's easy to argue the negative. Show me why moving to "freer" markets wouldn't be better than what we have now.
That's not what you said. You spout "the free market" (invisible hand) as it if it actually exists in reality. To me it's the same thing as saying "well, god will just take care of it".

It's belief in a deity that other than in academic journals and and business classes has never shown up in reality. What moves industry and economies? Corporations, globalism, and governments. The market is not its own entity so a "free market" is simply the wishful thinking of those looking for justification for their decisions.

The onus is not on me to prove that something doesn't exist, its on YOU to give me anything even remotely compelling that it DOES exist. The same concept applies to religion.
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Old May 12, 2013, 03:45 PM   #78
Bug-Creator
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Originally Posted by Dmunjal View Post
It's easy to argue the negative. Show me why moving to "freer" markets wouldn't be better than what we have now.
Obvious example:

Healthcare is miles closer to a "free market" in the US compared to most western/central european countries.

Now which produces better results for the general public, and which does it on far less % of GDP ?
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Old May 12, 2013, 04:40 PM   #79
Dmunjal
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Originally Posted by Bug-Creator View Post
Obvious example:

Healthcare is miles closer to a "free market" in the US compared to most western/central european countries.

Now which produces better results for the general public, and which does it on far less % of GDP ?
We have nothing close to a free market in health care. US health care just shows that crony capitalism medicine can be even worse than socialized medicine.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NT1440 View Post
That's not what you said. You spout "the free market" (invisible hand) as it if it actually exists in reality. To me it's the same thing as saying "well, god will just take care of it".

It's belief in a deity that other than in academic journals and and business classes has never shown up in reality. What moves industry and economies? Corporations, globalism, and governments. The market is not its own entity so a "free market" is simply the wishful thinking of those looking for justification for their decisions.

The onus is not on me to prove that something doesn't exist, its on YOU to give me anything even remotely compelling that it DOES exist. The same concept applies to religion.
I'm not talking in absolutes as they don't exist. Wouldn't freer markets be an improvement? I sill haven't heard what's better.
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Old May 12, 2013, 06:09 PM   #80
skunk
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Originally Posted by Dmunjal View Post
I'm not talking in absolutes as they don't exist. Wouldn't freer markets be an improvement? I sill haven't heard what's better.
You are talking absolutes. "After some research and education, the free market is what I've observed to be the best mechanism for a good economy that benefits the greatest number of people." Not "freer", but "free". Of course regulation needs to be adjusted here and there, and most of the ridiculous subsidies and breaks engineered by corporate lobbyists should be removed, but capitalism unchecked leads to nothing but cartels and monopolies, exploitation, corruption, undue political influence, price-gouging and wage-squeezing. What's good about that?
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Old May 12, 2013, 07:19 PM   #81
Dmunjal
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You are talking absolutes. "After some research and education, the free market is what I've observed to be the best mechanism for a good economy that benefits the greatest number of people." Not "freer", but "free". Of course regulation needs to be adjusted here and there, and most of the ridiculous subsidies and breaks engineered by corporate lobbyists should be removed, but capitalism unchecked leads to nothing but cartels and monopolies, exploitation, corruption, undue political influence, price-gouging and wage-squeezing. What's good about that?
So, what's your alternative? Almost all attempts in recent history to deal with issues you bring up makes things worse.
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Old May 12, 2013, 07:24 PM   #82
NT1440
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So, what's your alternative? Almost all attempts in recent history to deal with issues you bring up makes things worse.
That's because of a certain class who has been making those attempts the whole time.

My solution would be to team up with the world to improve rather than continue the empire wondering why everyone hates us even though we do our thing with a smile and wonderfully uplifting (empty) rhetoric. Capitalism at its core is a class system that we've released on the world, it's hugely contagious because it benefits those in power/corporations/the extremely wealthy (top 0.1%).
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