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Old Mar 20, 2013, 11:46 AM   #26
Xiroteus
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Originally Posted by symber View Post
What's the tradeoff? I see no gain to be had you seem to be just losing functionality?
From what I have seen it appears so 0.001MM of space can be saved. I know some like it if that extra space is used for something they want more, battery? Hard drive, etc..

Instead of making systems smaller and smaller how about keep the size, use new tech to make it more powerful!

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Originally Posted by Mike in Kansas View Post
This is a great tech strategy. One particular good place to do this is in point and shoot cameras. Most of the major camera manufacturers turn over at least a portion of their P&S cameras on an annual basis, and many times around the time of large camera or consumer electronics shows. Often the new camera will come out for what the old camera was selling for the day before, and the old camera will drop by 25% - 40% overnight as the retailers clear out stock. Printers are the same way. Unless either of these devices have failed without warning and I needed one right away, I have always purchased "last years model" at a substantial discount immediately after its successor was released, still getting 95% or more of the quality and/or functionality. In the case of a recent printer purchase, the only change was that the lighting on the panel was changed from amber to blue, and I saved 40%.
Camera tech does not really change all that much year to year, at this point a new camera vs a two year old one will not be all that different. There are some items I like sooner then later, I wanted until December 2004 for DVD's as they finally became cheap enough used. Blu-ray was about three years after release and only because of the blu-ray drive.

It works, if I had the budget I may buy items sooner then later, I did with my iPhone to a degree.
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Old Mar 20, 2013, 11:47 AM   #27
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Huh?

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Originally Posted by symber View Post
What's the tradeoff? I see no gain to be had you seem to be just losing functionality?
Losing an optical drive saves a helluva more than 1mm of space.
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Old Mar 20, 2013, 12:00 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by tdhurst View Post
Losing an optical drive saves a helluva more than 1mm of space.
You're not actually saving any space at all, seeing as the total space taken up by the stand and screen together is basically the same. It doesn't fit more conveniently on desks, it will take up the exact same amount of space.

So what's the tradeoff?
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Old Mar 20, 2013, 12:09 PM   #29
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Okay...

Quote:
Originally Posted by symber View Post
You're not actually saving any space at all, seeing as the total space taken up by the stand and screen together is basically the same. It doesn't fit more conveniently on desks, it will take up the exact same amount of space.

So what's the tradeoff?
Saves on weight, which is helpful to those paying freight bills or moving their computer around.

Looks cooler, which is a plus.

Encourages (okay, forces) people to rely on downloadable, digital content, which will hopefully bring prices down and expand digital content offerings.

Besides being able to buy movies cheaper, what's the argument for keeping an optical drive?
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Old Mar 20, 2013, 12:42 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by tdhurst View Post
Besides being able to buy movies cheaper, what's the argument for keeping an optical drive?
Buy movies cheaper.
Cheap, dispensable storage media
Install back catalogues of software
Watch DVDs
Rip music

*(I work in publishing and storing/sending photo shoots on a CD/DVD is the cheapest, easiest way and is independent of server bandwidth.)

Your reasons to remove were all either negative or of little value.

Weighs less most consumers won't care.
Looks cooler only from the side, not as the user.
Forces content to be accessed online I don't want to be forced to do anything...

A tradeoff means you get something in return. In this case, you're not.
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Old Mar 20, 2013, 12:44 PM   #31
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Disks have not yet gone away. Hate to have to buy a device to deal with the occasional one that comes along. Actually, buying a player for extensive use would be ok, sort of opposite of the usual argument.

One can see an Air without a drive, but the desktops and "pros"...?
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Old Mar 20, 2013, 01:07 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by symber View Post
Buy movies cheaper.
Cheap, dispensable storage media
Install back catalogues of software
Watch DVDs
Rip music

*(I work in publishing and storing/sending photo shoots on a CD/DVD is the cheapest, easiest way and is independent of server bandwidth.)

Your reasons to remove were all either negative or of little value.

Weighs less most consumers won't care.
Looks cooler only from the side, not as the user.
Forces content to be accessed online I don't want to be forced to do anything...

A tradeoff means you get something in return. In this case, you're not.
Weight less: Apple cares, so do shipping companies.
Looks cooler: Business have been buying iMacs for years because they look cool, from all angles. Computers CAN be more than tools, you now.
Online content: the industry doesn't care that you'd like to be able to watch DVDs. It's cheaper and more efficient to deliver that content digitally (I mean, it does basically start digitally, right? And then it's burned onto a DVD, packaged and mailed, yes?)

What you're saying is that you don't want anything to change. I get that. I miss VHS tapes and cassettes, too. Even the minimal amount of vinyl I used to have. But cassette and optical media companies didn't build turntables into their players, did they? Vinyl IS widely regarded as better sound, yes?

What you want is a device built for consuming most things (movies, games, etc). That's nice.
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Old Mar 20, 2013, 05:06 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by tdhurst View Post
Weight less: Apple cares, so do shipping companies.
Looks cooler: Business have been buying iMacs for years because they look cool, from all angles. Computers CAN be more than tools, you now.
Online content: the industry doesn't care that you'd like to be able to watch DVDs. It's cheaper and more efficient to deliver that content digitally (I mean, it does basically start digitally, right? And then it's burned onto a DVD, packaged and mailed, yes?)

What you're saying is that you don't want anything to change. I get that. I miss VHS tapes and cassettes, too. Even the minimal amount of vinyl I used to have. But cassette and optical media companies didn't build turntables into their players, did they? Vinyl IS widely regarded as better sound, yes?

What you want is a device built for consuming most things (movies, games, etc). That's nice.
All your points are for businesses and manufacturers. Not for end-users. I don't care what the industries want me to do, or how I should do it. Neither should you, as a consumer.

My question still stands why is everyone so happy to do away with it? Saying it's what industry wants doesn't answer the question. WE don't want it.
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Old Mar 20, 2013, 05:09 PM   #34
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Uh...

Quote:
Originally Posted by symber View Post
All your points are for businesses and manufacturers. Not for end-users. I don't care what the industries want me to do, or how I should do it. Neither should you, as a consumer.

My question still stands why is everyone so happy to do away with it? Saying it's what industry wants doesn't answer the question. WE don't want it.
When in the hell has ever bothered to ask their customers what they want?

"You can't just ask customers what they want and then try to give that to them. By the time you get it built, they'll want something new." Interview with Inc. Magazine for its "The Entrepreneur of the Decade Award" (1 April 1989)

You want to continue to use physical media. Good for you. Stop upgrading your computers, I bet the last iMac still works.
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Old Mar 20, 2013, 07:10 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by tdhurst View Post
Weight less: Apple cares, so do shipping companies.
Looks cooler: Business have been buying iMacs for years because they look cool, from all angles. Computers CAN be more than tools, you now.
Online content: the industry doesn't care that you'd like to be able to watch DVDs. It's cheaper and more efficient to deliver that content digitally (I mean, it does basically start digitally, right? And then it's burned onto a DVD, packaged and mailed, yes?)
Most of us really do not care that Apple or whoever saves a dime on shipping costs while the customer pays the same price. Digital is still more expensive them tangible media without the ability to trade, sell, give away, lend, and at a lower quality (tv and film) The idea of it is fine if and when done right. (Likely will never be anything I am comfortable with, I want blu-rays for under ten, used five or less, so that says a lot there)

Quote:
What you're saying is that you don't want anything to change. I get that. I miss VHS tapes and cassettes, too. Even the minimal amount of vinyl I used to have. But cassette and optical media companies didn't build turntables into their players, did they? Vinyl IS widely regarded as better sound, yes?
I can answer this as well, a lot of people like change when it makes sense or works for us, I love HD, smart phones, digital when done right etc... yet current media being on digital does nothing for what I already own. I can say I do NOT miss VHS or cassettes at any time, never cared for the format, CDs were fine so were DVD's etc..

Quote:
What you want is a device built for consuming most things (movies, games, etc). That's nice.
There is nothing wrong with a device that plays "current" tech and media, sense DVD's blu-rays are still being sold in the millions it is not really dated yet and is part of the present. I personally like a mix of things, downloaded games are great when cheap enough, movies will likely never hit a level I find cheap enough, music is also okay for the most part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdhurst View Post
When in the hell has ever bothered to ask their customers what they want?

"You can't just ask customers what they want and then try to give that to them. By the time you get it built, they'll want something new." Interview with Inc. Magazine for its "The Entrepreneur of the Decade Award" (1 April 1989)

You want to continue to use physical media. Good for you. Stop upgrading your computers, I bet the last iMac still works.
That does not work, speaking for myself, I would want a Macbook Pro with retina display, blu-ray drive, since Apple could not bother with blu-ray it may be questionable if I can deal with them, however there may be a point where that will likely not matter for a laptop, desktop YES! I will not touch a desktop without an optical drive. Aside from movies I really do not have anything that runs on discs unless I find cheap music I want to burn.

Many people want present tech installed on their systems, just because Apple calls something dated so they can sell for over priced movies on iTunes does not make it true.
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Old Mar 20, 2013, 07:14 PM   #36
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Okay

I'm wondering why you're an Apple fan at all, Xiroteus.

Plenty of PC laptops do everything you're looking for.
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Old Mar 20, 2013, 07:28 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by symber View Post
My question still stands why is everyone so happy to do away with it? Saying it's what industry wants doesn't answer the question. WE don't want it.
I would have been happy with the CD delete if the price reflected the lower cost to Apple. Having the drive means that everyone pays for something they might never use. I'm guessing that Apple did not lower the price commensurate with the lower material costs.

With that said, I *do* like the sleeker look of the 2012 iMac, and yes, appearance is important to me for everything from the way my house looks to my choice in cars. My new 27" iMac looks beautiful sitting on my aluminum and frosted glass computer table
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Old Mar 20, 2013, 07:37 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by tdhurst View Post
I'm wondering why you're an Apple fan at all, Xiroteus.

Plenty of PC laptops do everything you're looking for.
I am currently running a Windows based laptop because it is the only system that can run the programs I require. I do love my iPhone, iPods are great, however my iPhone takes care of that. When budget allows I would seriously look into a Retina Macbook Air (I do not care about an optical drive on an Air)

One issue is that I want to like their laptops and or desktops more, however over the years they keep moving away from what I was looking for yet at the same time I may be moving away from needing music in the way of optical media, and there is an optical for an external one regarding laptops, not thrilled with it yet if I have an air and only need it once a year I would be okay with that.

At this time I likely am more of a fan of Apples portable devices, they work really well and for the most part would suit my needs for such devices. In laptop area there are some issues at this time, something that may not be later on.

Most people have a television and a laptop, that is one reason this can be an issue, I use my laptop for everything so it needs to be a complete entertainment system. I believe Apple needs more options, some say, if you want an optical drive you can use the other model, no, people want a Macbook with a retina display and and optical drive as an option.

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Old Mar 21, 2013, 04:54 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by tdhurst View Post
When in the hell has ever bothered to ask their customers what they want?

"You can't just ask customers what they want and then try to give that to them. By the time you get it built, they'll want something new." Interview with Inc. Magazine for its "The Entrepreneur of the Decade Award" (1 April 1989)

You want to continue to use physical media. Good for you. Stop upgrading your computers, I bet the last iMac still works.
Companies ask their customers what they want all the time, it's called "market research".

My point was this: I understand the reasons why Apple would make these kinds of decisions. What I don't understand is why fans of the company defend those decisions, despite being adversely affected by them. I mean, actively defend them. So what if you're being ripped off? at least Apple can ship more units at a slightly reduced cost, thank heavens! So what if it has less functionality? at least Apple are forcing me to buy content online, a means in which they have a monopoly. Hurrah! Corporations are great!

Anyway, you get my gist.

And yes, my 2011 iMac is running swimmingly, thank you.

Semi-colon, hyphen, close parenthesis.
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Old Mar 21, 2013, 10:17 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by symber View Post
All your points are for businesses and manufacturers. Not for end-users. I don't care what the industries want me to do, or how I should do it. Neither should you, as a consumer.

My question still stands – why is everyone so happy to do away with it? Saying it's what industry wants doesn't answer the question. WE don't want it.
I'm an end user...and an extremely HAPPY end user now that they've done away with ODDs on the rMBP and iMac. The less 'moving' parts, the better. Less noise, less chance of a repair (ODDs are notorious for breaking earlier than most other internal AIO components)...and $30 for an excellent external drive is very cheap. You just have a single USB cord to the computer. Doesn't 'take away' aesthetically from the look. In fact, there are plenty of 3rd party 'racks' you can add to the back of your iMac if you don't like the look. More and more digital content is being delivered OTA...I run a music and video production business...I'm definitely still using optical media for costumer delivery on occasion. However, more often than not--we are using Thumb drives for delivery as they are cheap, sturdy and ubiquitous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiroteus View Post
I am currently running a Windows based laptop because it is the only system that can run the programs I require. I do love my iPhone, iPods are great, however my iPhone takes care of that. When budget allows I would seriously look into a Retina Macbook Air (I do not care about an optical drive on an Air)

One issue is that I want to like their laptops and or desktops more, however over the years they keep moving away from what I was looking for yet at the same time I may be moving away from needing music in the way of optical media, and there is an optical for an external one regarding laptops, not thrilled with it yet if I have an air and only need it once a year I would be okay with that.

At this time I likely am more of a fan of Apples portable devices, they work really well and for the most part would suit my needs for such devices. In laptop area there are some issues at this time, something that may not be later on.

Most people have a television and a laptop, that is one reason this can be an issue, I use my laptop for everything so it needs to be a complete entertainment system. I believe Apple needs more options, some say, if you want an optical drive you can use the other model, no, people want a Macbook with a retina display and and optical drive as an option.
YOU want a rMBP with optical option. Don't group the masses into your opinion. The MBA is a monster seller for Apple (Intel invested $300mil into Windows Ultrabook marketing after realizing the success of the MBA). Windows machines and AIOs are also following suit. Not all...but many. If you have a TV and laptop (Mac or PC)--buy yourself an Apple TV, ROKU box, WD Live box...lots of < $100 options on the market to wirelessly stream from laptop to TV. This IS the way technology is going. If you've recently (in the past two years) visited a Best Buy...you'll see the meager selection of optical media. CDs are almost non-existent (other than new releases)---DVDs are going the way of the DoDo and BluRay...again, other than New Releases---the sections in B&M stores are becoming smaller and smaller. Blu-Ray releases now also contain a DVD copy and digital/UV copy for D/L to your computer. The movie/music studios are following suit.

I'm a HUGE music aficionado. I've got over 5,000 vinyl records at home...and 4 turntables. I use a tube pre-amp for both my phono stage and digital front end...I love uncompressed, analog recordings. There are plenty of ways to do what you're looking for...but technology moves forward. These new iMacs have shaved almost 50% of their weight by releasing ODDs inside. This is a major weight savings and an intelligent move to mitigate ODD repairs internally. Again, as mentioned earlier in the thread---don't like it, don't buy it. They're not going to change their strategy for a 'few' folks that don't like it. The masses HAVE moved to digital delivery and reception. iTunes and music rental services ala Spotify have changed the way music is received, listened to and stored. It's the future---Cassettes, Vinyl, Tape/R2R, 8 Track...and now CD, they're going away. It's a fact and if you don't care for it, look elsewhere. It's an easy decision. The weight savings and size differences when you subtract the ODD is significant---as are the costly repairs for Apple when the ODD breaks internally in an AIO or rMBP. Solid State is where technology is going. Take a sh** or get off the pot. No one is mandating you update to a product you don't care for. And I'd venture to guess the majority or folks these days are using those ODDs less and less as time moves forward. Again---one only needs to take a peak at the retailers that sell physical media.

J

Just a quick edit--the same is going on with physical distribution of software. Adobe announced within the last 48 hours that THEY are done with physical disc distribution. They ARE passing the savings along to the consumer as well!!! I'm a long time Adobe Master suite user (PS/AE/Premier/In Design specifically). The Master collection has always been $2800---today, with the 'Creative Cloud', I'm paying $30 a month for ALL of the programs included in the M/C. Look at Aperture in the MacApp store---$79 bucks!!! It was always a couple hundred dollars (or more) in the physical box. Without shipping and packaging, I do TRULY believe the big companies ARE passing the savings along to us--the 'End User'

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Old Mar 21, 2013, 03:38 PM   #41
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Some have stated many times that if we are to purchase a so-called all in one they do not wish to add clutter to a device that is designed to be streamlined, it defeats the purpose. I feel the same way, I will never buy a desktop computer that required an external optical drive, MAYBE a laptop, however I want my laptops with blu-ray so that is questionable.
I still think it was a good idea to remove the drive in Apple's recent macs. Most people hardly ever use them and when they do having a superdrive is not a problem. It's slick, small, nice looking and it works great, not to mention when it breaks down all you have to do is replace it instead of one inside your mac.
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Old Mar 21, 2013, 04:36 PM   #42
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Our house has an iMac on the desk and two Macbook Airs -- one each for my wife and I. One superdrive moves from machine to machine as needed - which isn't all that often.

While I agree that an "all-in-one" is a misnomer when you have to add an external ODD, the reality is that most of us have numerous devices hanging off our all-in-ones anyway. I have a thunderbolt drive, a Nikon film scanner, and several printers to accommodate, not to mention cords for ipod and ipad syncing. At least the superdrive is small, attractive, and has a short enough cord that there aren't a load of wires to get in the way.

The only way we'll ever really have an all-in-one computer is when every one of us has the same need for applications and hardware. In other words - never.
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Old Mar 21, 2013, 04:43 PM   #43
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I'm an end user...and an extremely HAPPY end user now that they've done away with ODDs on the rMBP and iMac. The less 'moving' parts, the better. Less noise, less chance of a repair (ODDs are notorious for breaking earlier than most other internal AIO components)...and $30 for an excellent external drive is very cheap. You just have a single USB cord to the computer. Doesn't 'take away' aesthetically from the look. In fact, there are plenty of 3rd party 'racks' you can add to the back of your iMac if you don't like the look. More and more digital content is being delivered OTA...I run a music and video production business...I'm definitely still using optical media for costumer delivery on occasion. However, more often than not--we are using Thumb drives for delivery as they are cheap, sturdy and ubiquitous.
I imagine the noise would be minimal unless you were using it. And I have never personally had issues with optical drives breaking. If I was to purchase a so called all in one, an external drive does defeat the purchase and effects the aesthetics of the entire look. At some point I likely can accept it for laptops, not desktops, those need blu-ray drives as well.

I prefer usb flash drives myself, I currently own zero software on CD/DVD because I rather it be digital or USB.


Quote:
YOU want a rMBP with optical option. Don't group the masses into your opinion.
Not saying all or even a huge group of people, they do exist and some people will not purchase one because of it. One point would be, who would really avoid the retina Macbook because it had an optical drive and blu-ray vs though who avoid it because it does not? Being more functional is hardly a bad thing. If I had my way I would want a retina Macbook Pro with blu-ray drive, install OSX, Windows 7, touch screen along with wacom and pressure sensitive. It would give me the best of every world.

Quote:
The MBA is a monster seller for Apple (Intel invested $300mil into Windows Ultrabook marketing after realizing the success of the MBA). Windows machines and AIOs are also following suit. Not all...but many. If you have a TV and laptop (Mac or PC)--buy yourself an Apple TV, ROKU box, WD Live box...lots of < $100 options on the market to wirelessly stream from laptop to TV. This IS the way technology is going. If you've recently (in the past two years) visited a Best Buy...you'll see the meager selection of optical media. CDs are almost non-existent (other than new releases)---DVDs are going the way of the DoDo and BluRay...again, other than New Releases---the sections in B&M stores are becoming smaller and smaller. Blu-Ray releases now also contain a DVD copy and digital/UV copy for D/L to your computer. The movie/music studios are following suit.
I believe the biggest issue I have with the movement is prices, I tend to be okay with music prices yet movies are far too costly, the rentals are basically what I would pay for digital downloads in HD. And I can still get better quality on the used market. I love digital when done in a manner I like, hundreds of books, songs, comics, movies etc... in something the size of a small book is highly appealing. (with backups)

Quote:
I'm a HUGE music aficionado. I've got over 5,000 vinyl records at home...and 4 turntables. I use a tube pre-amp for both my phono stage and digital front end...I love uncompressed, analog recordings. There are plenty of ways to do what you're looking for...but technology moves forward. These new iMacs have shaved almost 50% of their weight by releasing ODDs inside.
This is an issue for me as I am trying to have one device do everything, this is something most do not care about and I know that. People want a blu-ray? They toss it in their blu-ray player on their large HDTV. I imagine in part to the OOD, the new design along gave it a bit less weight, normally that is not something people worried about, saving a pound or two on a desktop.

Based on how I am talking you would think I would have the huge music, movie collection, I moved away from CDs, still have movies because they are cheap. (As in under a couple dollars) I do like having some degree of uncompressed music, however I likely will not have the equipment that can really use it well anytime soon.

Quote:
This is a major weight savings and an intelligent move to mitigate ODD repairs internally.
That is valid based on the design of the system.

Quote:
Again, as mentioned earlier in the thread---don't like it, don't buy it.
In this case that is not something I buy in to, because I want to like it, I want options, they would have more sales if they gave people options instead of telling people what they want.

Quote:
They're not going to change their strategy for a 'few' folks that don't like it. The masses HAVE moved to digital delivery and reception. iTunes and music rental services ala Spotify have changed the way music is received, listened to and stored.
I still believe they can have options, they just want people to use iTunes. I will see how I feel in five years, even now I am moving to were monthly streaming can be enough for tv shows, movies etc.. because it can be good enough, really do not need to own everything.

Quote:
It's the future---Cassettes, Vinyl, Tape/R2R, 8 Track...and now CD, they're going away. It's a fact and if you don't care for it, look elsewhere. It's an easy decision. The weight savings and size differences when you subtract the ODD is significant---as are the costly repairs for Apple when the ODD breaks internally in an AIO or rMBP. Solid State is where technology is going. Take a sh** or get off the pot. No one is mandating you update to a product you don't care for. And I'd venture to guess the majority or folks these days are using those ODDs less and less as time moves forward. Again---one only needs to take a peak at the retailers that sell physical media.
I will give it the repair cost savings, not much on the weight as it is a desktop and most customers have never cared about that. (Laptops, yes, desktops, questionable depending on the size) I can say for myself that I would love to rent films in HD from my computer, quick and easy, however if over two dollars it is not going to happen. Yet I do love the concept.

More then happy to move away from cassettes, VHS etc.. never liked those formats.

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Just a quick edit--the same is going on with physical distribution of software. Adobe announced within the last 48 hours that THEY are done with physical disc distribution. They ARE passing the savings along to the consumer as well!!!
That is a first, most companies just kept charging the same price for something we have no control over.

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I'm a long time Adobe Master suite user (PS/AE/Premier/In Design specifically). The Master collection has always been $2800---today, with the 'Creative Cloud', I'm paying $30 a month for ALL of the programs included in the M/C. Look at Aperture in the MacApp store---$79 bucks!!! It was always a couple hundred dollars (or more) in the physical box. Without shipping and packaging, I do TRULY believe the big companies ARE passing the savings along to us--the 'End User'
Some companies and maybe software, movies are still insanely expensive. Those do sound like much better deals. Thirty a month makes it much easier to use and stay updated. ($2,800 is a lot to toss out at one time)

Even with everything I have said, I sometimes wonder why it is so important to worry about trade, selling, giving away etc.. when it comes to media, if I buy a game for ten dollars I am okay with digital because it would never have any real value, twenty dollars? Maybe. Even if it was retail, by the time I would want to sell it (if at all) it likely would hard limited value and there would be little point. Out of all monthly costs, rent, power, internet, phone, food etc... that there is no return on other then said service, I wonder why I would worry so much about the possible return on fifty dollars of entertainment media. It feels so small based on everything else that it bought monthly.

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Originally Posted by AppleDeviceUser View Post
I still think it was a good idea to remove the drive in Apple's recent macs. Most people hardly ever use them and when they do having a superdrive is not a problem. It's slick, small, nice looking and it works great, not to mention when it breaks down all you have to do is replace it instead of one inside your mac.
Just based on the ridiculousness of adding an external optical drive to a desktop machine alone is enough to make me avoid it, personal preferences and all. I have never had an optical drive break down on any computer I have owned.
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