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Old Nov 12, 2013, 07:30 PM   #751
ASKendrew
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I say this to myself every expansion pack, then end up quitting after 2 months. Didn't even reach max level in MoP, although that was more down to me levelling a Monk from 0-87...
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Old Nov 13, 2013, 06:22 AM   #752
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Same with me. On the plus side, FFARR patch 2.1 is coming out in December - player housing, PVP, dailies, treasure hunting, etc. I'm just happy for housing, I haven't seen that in an MMO for almost a decade.

I'll probably try out the next WoW expansion just to see what a Garrison is like. So far it just seems like a single player instance, which to me is a crappy way of doing player housing. Contrast this with FF ARR, where the instance is a 30 player village, or with SWG, where the housing existed in the permanent world.
Yeah but consider the limitations of these things.

90% of SWG was randomly generated landmass. with randomly spawning monsters. That was the world.


World of Warcraft is a 100% handcrafted world and its part of what makes it cool. you can't all of a sudden allow tens of thousands of players to build houses in the middle of the terrain. Just consider the consequences of what it would do.
From idiots building a wooden cabin in the molten core to hundreds of houses clocking over places full of terrain. You wouldn't have enough landmass to do it right.

It worked in SWG because the entire game was build around it. but it meant that many cities was abandoned, even before the game started dying. because many people didnt think it was sticking around there all day. a few people come to trade and go, and some guildies come. but most cities had hundreds and hundreds of identically looking houses.



It seems very true that WoW has instanced housing. but at least its seamless instancing, and unlike SWTOR your followers will actually do things physically within your garrison. if you sent them out to mine or chop wood they will do it real time. if you fly over the zone from a flying mount you can see it.

For a 9 year old game that is bending its engine to its limits, I think it's unrealistic to ask for more. this tech is ancient. they started working on the engine for wow in 1999. Just consider how old it is.

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Originally Posted by ASKendrew View Post
I say this to myself every expansion pack, then end up quitting after 2 months. Didn't even reach max level in MoP, although that was more down to me levelling a Monk from 0-87...
they give a free boosted lvl 90 in this expansion for this reason.

I've been out of WoW for over 4 years and I was looking forward to visiting the post-cataclysm world, but now I wonder if people will be around.


If I come back will depend largely on how good their re-doing of animations and race models will be. They are so horiffic old right now. they look worse than a starcraft 2 unit. It's really, really bad at this point.
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Old Nov 13, 2013, 10:50 AM   #753
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Building a house in a MMO is simultaneously intriguing and worrisome. I don't like the idea of urban sprawl located in my favorite zone. I'm sure there must be zone restrictions and it would be good to have enough variation so you don't have 100's of cookie cutter dwellings grouped in a ghetto.
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Old Nov 13, 2013, 12:01 PM   #754
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Originally Posted by luffytubby View Post
Yeah but consider the limitations of these things.

90% of SWG was randomly generated landmass. with randomly spawning monsters. That was the world.

World of Warcraft is a 100% handcrafted world and its part of what makes it cool. you can't all of a sudden allow tens of thousands of players to build houses in the middle of the terrain. Just consider the consequences of what it would do.
I think all they would've had to do was create a new zone or set of zones adapted for housing. Part of what made housing cool IMO is it's virtual real estate. Once you've bought it you own that plot and nobody else can touch it. With WoW, the Garrison looks to be just a single player instance with quests and personal NPC's.

I know the abandonment of cities sucked but the creation of cities was a lot of fun and gave you a vested interest in the world.

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Building a house in a MMO is simultaneously intriguing and worrisome. I don't like the idea of urban sprawl located in my favorite zone. I'm sure there must be zone restrictions and it would be good to have enough variation so you don't have 100's of cookie cutter dwellings grouped in a ghetto.
I don't think you have to worry about urban sprawl, because it's pretty much a single player instance done via phasing. With WoW, there's no real impact on the game world. Just the use of phasing to present the illusion of change.
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Old Nov 13, 2013, 11:06 PM   #755
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Has anyone saw the announcement of a new exp pack?

I still love wow, but lately been avoiding playing it. I do mostly pvp and it feels like getting a job for the first time. You need experience to get a job, you need a job to get experience. In this case you need to win arena's to get dressed, but to not be wasted in12 seconds, you have to be dressed. And now everyone is a pro. Honor gear no linger keep you alive. Kind of sucks
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Old Nov 14, 2013, 06:25 AM   #756
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Has anyone saw the announcement of a new exp pack?

I still love wow, but lately been avoiding playing it. I do mostly pvp and it feels like getting a job for the first time. You need experience to get a job, you need a job to get experience. In this case you need to win arena's to get dressed, but to not be wasted in12 seconds, you have to be dressed. And now everyone is a pro. Honor gear no linger keep you alive. Kind of sucks
That's also how it goes for PvE. You need gear to join raids, you need raids to get gear. Thankfully there's the raid finder to semi-solve this, though.
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Old Nov 15, 2013, 04:01 AM   #757
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Originally Posted by luffytubby View Post
Yeah but consider the limitations of these things.

90% of SWG was randomly generated landmass. with randomly spawning monsters. That was the world.


World of Warcraft is a 100% handcrafted world and its part of what makes it cool. you can't all of a sudden allow tens of thousands of players to build houses in the middle of the terrain. Just consider the consequences of what it would do.
From idiots building a wooden cabin in the molten core to hundreds of houses clocking over places full of terrain. You wouldn't have enough landmass to do it right.

It worked in SWG because the entire game was build around it. but it meant that many cities was abandoned, even before the game started dying. because many people didnt think it was sticking around there all day. a few people come to trade and go, and some guildies come. but most cities had hundreds and hundreds of identically looking houses.



It seems very true that WoW has instanced housing. but at least its seamless instancing, and unlike SWTOR your followers will actually do things physically within your garrison. if you sent them out to mine or chop wood they will do it real time. if you fly over the zone from a flying mount you can see it.

For a 9 year old game that is bending its engine to its limits, I think it's unrealistic to ask for more. this tech is ancient. they started working on the engine for wow in 1999. Just consider how old it is.

----------



they give a free boosted lvl 90 in this expansion for this reason.

I've been out of WoW for over 4 years and I was looking forward to visiting the post-cataclysm world, but now I wonder if people will be around.


If I come back will depend largely on how good their re-doing of animations and race models will be. They are so horiffic old right now. they look worse than a starcraft 2 unit. It's really, really bad at this point.
I played from 2005-2007. If I were you I wouldn't go back. You will ruin your nostalgia. Also the game might not be the same feeling even if you went to a private BC only server because you're older now. Just keep the memories because those are emotion driven and you will never get that emotion from the game this day as you did back then, only overwrite it with something a bit more mediocre :P hope that makes sense you could always draw fan art or listen to the music.

Remember when people used to say oh i love the casting animation of so and so, that was back in like 2007. Our expectations were so much less and we saw so much more because of it. You have experienced PS4 like graphics today and it is just too hard to go back to something you once thought was awesome graphics. Kind of like going back to FF7, it is so hard to do even though back when I was 11 it was "REAL LIFE GRAPHICS!"

PS. Funny how old this thread is :P everyone considers going back multiple times because of the nostalgia but this thread stays alive for 8 years because the game just can't answer the needs of old school players anymore even though they desperately want to experience those emotions again.

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I played pre-BC. Why does post BC suck?
ugly environments with boring quests. Pre BC was all magical, BC is just a deep breath and hold it while you try to get through this terrible zone as quickly as possible.

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Well installed GW2 last night. After I found the serial sitting in my junk folder. Which I thought I already checked.

Installed without a hitch. Started up a Human hunter and away I went. Pretty intuitive and really like the look and feel so far.

Put it on the wife's computer this morning, so maybe we can find a few hours tonight to play together.
I played a ranger and a mage in gw2, fun for the first month but it has no worthwhile end game at all. You will find yourself making multiple characters until the effect wears off because levelling is the only real fun part of the game.
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Old Nov 15, 2013, 10:32 AM   #758
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ugly environments with boring quests. Pre BC was all magical, BC is just a deep breath and hold it while you try to get through this terrible zone as quickly as possible.
I'm playing FFXIV:ARR and while it is beautiful, Wow beats it for exotic environments and zones. I've been to all three FFXIV regions and there is not too much exotic about it. I have limited exposure to dungeons, but the first 3 FFXIV dungeons I've done are pretty mundane. In WoW zones and dungeons I remember having my socks knocked off. WoW is the king for good reason.
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Old Nov 18, 2013, 06:46 AM   #759
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I'm playing FFXIV:ARR and while it is beautiful, Wow beats it for exotic environments and zones. I've been to all three FFXIV regions and there is not too much exotic about it. I have limited exposure to dungeons, but the first 3 FFXIV dungeons I've done are pretty mundane. In WoW zones and dungeons I remember having my socks knocked off. WoW is the king for good reason.
To be fair, the first dungeons of WoW are also mundane. I'm up to turn 5 of Coil now (end game raid) and think that Square Enix has done a fantastic job on the raiding... The only problem is that, like all new games, there isn't enough content.

Having only 2 4-man dungeons at the end makes for a boring grind until you get the gear for Coil. Then once you get into coil, progression is exciting, and the boss fights are extremely difficult (reminds me of old-style WoW). Again, however, this gets old quickly as there are only 5 bosses throughout the raid, each of which takes about 1-2 weeks to master (maybe with the exception of turn 5). Once you master them, though, you can get the entire raid done within an hour.

2.1 comes out in December which should bring some more content and hopefully some bug fixes as well. Currently its my favorite MMO, but this new WoW expansion has certainly piqued my interest. If SE can't keep up with content updates, I may consider going back.

P.S. - I played WoW from Vanilla through the end of Wrath, bought Cataclysm and pretty much called it quits after my Guild downed the 4.0 raids in less than a month after hitting 85.
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Old Nov 18, 2013, 09:04 AM   #760
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To be fair, the first dungeons of WoW are also mundane. I'm up to turn 5 of Coil now (end game raid) and think that Square Enix has done a fantastic job on the raiding... The only problem is that, like all new games, there isn't enough content.

Having only 2 4-man dungeons at the end makes for a boring grind until you get the gear for Coil. Then once you get into coil, progression is exciting, and the boss fights are extremely difficult (reminds me of old-style WoW). Again, however, this gets old quickly as there are only 5 bosses throughout the raid, each of which takes about 1-2 weeks to master (maybe with the exception of turn 5). Once you master them, though, you can get the entire raid done within an hour.

2.1 comes out in December which should bring some more content and hopefully some bug fixes as well. Currently its my favorite MMO, but this new WoW expansion has certainly piqued my interest. If SE can't keep up with content updates, I may consider going back.

P.S. - I played WoW from Vanilla through the end of Wrath, bought Cataclysm and pretty much called it quits after my Guild downed the 4.0 raids in less than a month after hitting 85.
I answered this post in the FFXIV thread.
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Old Nov 18, 2013, 10:13 AM   #761
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Problem with WoW's evolution from vanilla up to MoP is that it gets flatter and flatter in every expansion/major patch. Classes are hardly have any real core differences anymore (all in the name of balance), itemization is flat and simplified concerning stats, builds are annoyingly straight-forward made. Especially anyone that played a hybrid class (druid,shaman,paladin) from vanilla till now will surely know exactly what I mean.
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Old Nov 19, 2013, 10:46 AM   #762
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Problem with WoW's evolution from vanilla up to MoP is that it gets flatter and flatter in every expansion/major patch. Classes are hardly have any real core differences anymore (all in the name of balance), itemization is flat and simplified concerning stats, builds are annoyingly straight-forward made. Especially anyone that played a hybrid class (druid,shaman,paladin) from vanilla till now will surely know exactly what I mean.
When this is reflected in the most popular MMORPG of all time, it clarifies the challenge of staying ahead of players. Having millions of dollars to throw at development won't stop them from gobbling content in a matter of months.

WoW dungeons are the best as far as unique layout and features! I'm no software expert, but I imagine tools such as auto terrain generators will move towards a "dynamic" sandbox experience, including dynamic dungeons that can be discovered.

If I remember correctly, there are hints that Everquest Next may be experimenting with something along these lines. But I imagine an issue with auto terrain generation, and lacking uniqueness, plus quest infrastructure would still have to be created. I have no idea how much automation could eventually be involved in that too.
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Old Nov 21, 2013, 08:10 PM   #763
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You know what would be cool? If dungeons had raid boss "pools" with custom generated story lines that involved you fighting 2 or 3 at a time but it can be a random 2 or 3 out of a pool of about 15. 15 bosses with 2 random encounters would lead to 105 different combinations of bosses! Imagine if it's 3? 455 different combinations!

Plus if the bosses had certain buffs or attacks based on location/support/number of total enemies. For example if a boss is next to a lava pit but he's by himself, maybe he gets a spam attack to splash lava at certain parts of the battlefield.

Another cool thing to have would be "city sieges". I thought of this when I was playing Final Fantasy XI and we had Assault campaigns. I thought it'd be cool if every now and then, completely computationally random times, there's an "attack on the city" by monsters and orcs/goblins/etc. There'd be tiers of monsters: Regular mobs that low level characters can kill, elites, powered elites (strongest out of a group of elites) and named bosses. The named bosses would have hit points equivalent to a maxed tier raid boss x1.5 and 1.5x the attack power as well and hit really fast. But also have a random set of abilities from an "ability" pool.

If you defend the city: Depending on the % of damage you did to those mobs, you get "Assault" points and for a couple of days or maybe a week after, the city has unique items from venders, an hourly buff that lasts 45 minutes after obtaining (similar to Onyxia buff) and a festival for mini-games.

But if you fail and the city is sacked: For those couple of days or week that the city would be celebrating, the city is a sacked city. Vender goods are limited, certain establishments are closed, the city looks rundown, not as many guards (horde or alliance can attack with impunity).
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Old Nov 25, 2013, 09:28 AM   #764
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Did anyone play Shadowbane? That was a game that did player owned cities right.

There was a giant continent but the real estate was still a limited amount. There was complete open PVP. If you wanted your own city and there wasn't any real estate available, your only option was to tear down another "guild"' city... which of course required a bunch of people to do. The way it worked was, each city had a "tree of life" which made all of the buildings invulnerable. A city would put a "bane" on the tree and it would schedule a time in the future where the bane would go life... at that time the tree would become vulnerable and if you knocked it down, the buildings would then become vulnerable too. It made for large wars and it was awesome.
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Old Nov 25, 2013, 12:16 PM   #765
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Did anyone play Shadowbane? That was a game that did player owned cities right.

There was a giant continent but the real estate was still a limited amount. There was complete open PVP. If you wanted your own city and there wasn't any real estate available, your only option was to tear down another "guild"' city... which of course required a bunch of people to do. The way it worked was, each city had a "tree of life" which made all of the buildings invulnerable. A city would put a "bane" on the tree and it would schedule a time in the future where the bane would go life... at that time the tree would become vulnerable and if you knocked it down, the buildings would then become vulnerable too. It made for large wars and it was awesome.
I played it for years before quitting and eventually switching to WoW. It was the ultimate PvP game since when you killed someone, you looted them of their gold and items they were carrying. Unfortunately, it had no dungeons or quest and the only way to level was to grind killing creatures. The towns / cities were also very expensive to build / upgrade / and support so you needed a large guild with everyone working to support the town / city. The groups of people who attacked your city had to specify when the attack would be and if you didn't have all your guild members on at that time, you might lose your city. I spent many nights waking up at 3 am to defend a city .
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Old Nov 25, 2013, 04:41 PM   #766
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I played it for years before quitting and eventually switching to WoW. It was the ultimate PvP game since when you killed someone, you looted them of their gold and items they were carrying. Unfortunately, it had no dungeons or quest and the only way to level was to grind killing creatures. The towns / cities were also very expensive to build / upgrade / and support so you needed a large guild with everyone working to support the town / city. The groups of people who attacked your city had to specify when the attack would be and if you didn't have all your guild members on at that time, you might lose your city. I spent many nights waking up at 3 am to defend a city .
I think that is what made the game great though. You felt a lot closer with your guild mates because you were piping with them all the time. I liked that there weren't any quests etc... You may have had to "grind" to level up, but you could level to the max level in a couple of days if you knew what you were doing. (druid AOE)
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Old Nov 26, 2013, 06:46 AM   #767
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Did anyone play Shadowbane? That was a game that did player owned cities right.

There was a giant continent but the real estate was still a limited amount. There was complete open PVP. If you wanted your own city and there wasn't any real estate available, your only option was to tear down another "guild"' city... which of course required a bunch of people to do. The way it worked was, each city had a "tree of life" which made all of the buildings invulnerable. A city would put a "bane" on the tree and it would schedule a time in the future where the bane would go life... at that time the tree would become vulnerable and if you knocked it down, the buildings would then become vulnerable too. It made for large wars and it was awesome.
This game has been rebuilt into a new MMO called EVE Online. No joke, it is nearly the same system, only in space! Which is obviously better... =]
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Old Nov 26, 2013, 08:00 AM   #768
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This game has been rebuilt into a new MMO called EVE Online. No joke, it is nearly the same system, only in space! Which is obviously better... =]
hah I have to disagree with you there. I put four weeks into Eve trying to give it a chance. Obviously it had an extremely difficult learning curve, but the most frustrating thing was that after you died, you had to fly around to different stations outfitting another ship. That was extremely annoying, especially considering how often you died.

At least in Shadowbane all you had to do was repair your gear. Shadowbane's learning curve was nowhere near Eve.
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Old Nov 27, 2013, 07:37 AM   #769
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hah I have to disagree with you there. I put four weeks into Eve trying to give it a chance. Obviously it had an extremely difficult learning curve, but the most frustrating thing was that after you died, you had to fly around to different stations outfitting another ship. That was extremely annoying, especially considering how often you died.

At least in Shadowbane all you had to do was repair your gear. Shadowbane's learning curve was nowhere near Eve.
well, to put it quite frankly, unless you go rushing off into PVP after 2 hours of playing, you shouldn't be dying much. Follow along with the tutorial, put in some time, and you'll be golden.

The 0.0 sovereignty pvp is exactly as you described in Shadowbane though, just more futuristic.
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