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Old Jan 22, 2014, 04:41 PM   #51
JesterJJZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnius View Post
Optical media is dead or dying. Digital media has been more reliable for me.
Blu Ray player sales and movie sales are higher than ever.
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Old Jan 22, 2014, 06:01 PM   #52
phrehdd
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Originally Posted by slenpree View Post
iTunes is 1080p. What you're saying is similar to saying a 1.2L engine can never outperform a 1.6L engine, add superchargers and turbos and they do with the added benefit of increased fuel efficiency and lower emissions. Same with when people said AMD CPU's were slow simply because their clock rate was not over 3GHz like the Intel Pentium 4 at the time. People should grow out of "bigger is better", otherwise you'll just be a sucker to marketing.

Consider how long blu-ray has been around now and that even new movies have to maintain compatibility with really old players with limited AVC decoders in them.
Perhaps the original quote you referenced was slightly in error and should not have said simply 1080p but blu ray level 1080p. In that case (the latter correction), I would agree with that poster entirely.

Blu Ray movies are compressed files. Itunes are compressed files. ITunes gives up so much more due to the type of compression and final size of file. This is not opinion but fact. It is quantitative not qualitative.

Does Itunes offer and support HD Audio streams - NO.
Does Blu Ray offer and support HD Audio streams - YES.

Does Itunes files provide optimal blacks and shadow detail - NO.
Does Blu Ray (or rather can they) offer optimal blacks and shadow detail-YES.

There is far more to a movie than just the "1080p" facet. One could take a 480i file and upconvert it to 1080p. It would be vastly inferior to a native blu ray (or for that matter iTunes) level 1080p purchase. When any compression scheme is used there is trade offs and then there are what some call diminished returns. The diminished returns in this case is when compression produced a 'relative' and/or absolute downgrade from the original. Itunes certainly provides a nice image and fair sound but no where does it compare to what a blu ray can do and that simply is a FACT.
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Old Jan 22, 2014, 08:27 PM   #53
thehustleman
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Originally Posted by phrehdd View Post
Perhaps the original quote you referenced was slightly in error and should not have said simply 1080p but blu ray level 1080p. In that case (the latter correction), I would agree with that poster entirely.

Blu Ray movies are compressed files. Itunes are compressed files. ITunes gives up so much more due to the type of compression and final size of file. This is not opinion but fact. It is quantitative not qualitative.

Does Itunes offer and support HD Audio streams - NO.
Does Blu Ray offer and support HD Audio streams - YES.

Does Itunes files provide optimal blacks and shadow detail - NO.
Does Blu Ray (or rather can they) offer optimal blacks and shadow detail-YES.

There is far more to a movie than just the "1080p" facet. One could take a 480i file and upconvert it to 1080p. It would be vastly inferior to a native blu ray (or for that matter iTunes) level 1080p purchase. When any compression scheme is used there is trade offs and then there are what some call diminished returns. The diminished returns in this case is when compression produced a 'relative' and/or absolute downgrade from the original. Itunes certainly provides a nice image and fair sound but no where does it compare to what a blu ray can do and that simply is a FACT.
Agreed.

Blu-ray is still the best digital format for movies
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Old Jan 22, 2014, 09:25 PM   #54
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Primary concern for streaming iTunes and others...

I have had titles disappear from iTunes and are no longer available for download. I've never had whole movie cases disappear from my shelf.

iTunes T&S says it is my responsibility to backup purchases so the rose colored tint of online streaming is not quite the same shade as what we are told it will be. The iTunes media cloud is not a completely viable means to hold your media collection. If you are not going to burn backups to your off site locations, you risk losing your items. (Media owners/studios can change and revoke rights, etc.)

You cannot transfer ownership of your download. Instead of selling your movie collection when you are on hard times, you have to go straight to blood serum and other fluids. You cannot donate your digital download to the Goodwill. You can, and are completely allowed to, erase your download free of cost. If free/cheap transfer of ownership and loans becomes the norm for cloud media along with free/cheap relicensing for a new format on re-releases, I think it would be hard to not like cloud media. It isn't that easy yet. It would be nice if it was.

Cloud based is convenient. Like other people have mentioned, buy the disk with the digital copy codes. As long as you are good with watching from multiple services, cloud can be a decent solution but not the best. You'll have the BluRay when you have a good media room and the cloud for when you are away from home.
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Old Jan 23, 2014, 04:55 PM   #55
slenpree
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phrehdd View Post
Perhaps the original quote you referenced was slightly in error and should not have said simply 1080p but blu ray level 1080p. In that case (the latter correction), I would agree with that poster entirely.
I was correcting an error, end off.

Blu Ray movies are compressed files. Itunes are compressed files. ITunes gives up so much more due to the type of compression and final size of file. This is not opinion but fact. It is quantitative not qualitative.
File size isn't a measurement of picture quality, as you'e totally disregarded the codec in use and it's settings.

Does Itunes offer and support HD Audio streams - NO.
Does Blu Ray offer and support HD Audio streams - YES.
Yes because the human ear can't hear above 22kHz.

Does Itunes files provide optimal blacks and shadow detail - NO.
Does Blu Ray (or rather can they) offer optimal blacks and shadow detail-YES.
I found it the other way round, the black level and shadow detail on H.264 High 4.1 is fantastic.

There is far more to a movie than just the "1080p" facet. One could take a 480i file and upconvert it to 1080p. It would be vastly inferior to a native blu ray (or for that matter iTunes) level 1080p purchase.
Wasn't me who said 1080p was a factor of picture quality

When any compression scheme is used there is trade offs and then there are what some call diminished returns. The diminished returns in this case is when compression produced a 'relative' and/or absolute downgrade from the original. Itunes certainly provides a nice image and fair sound but no where does it compare to what a blu ray can do and that simply is a FACT.
You sound like the sort of person who can't accept other peoples opinions on anything.
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Old Jan 23, 2014, 05:00 PM   #56
HurtinMinorKey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slenpree View Post
iTunes is 1080p. What you're saying is similar to saying a 1.2L engine can never outperform a 1.6L engine, add superchargers and turbos and they do with the added benefit of increased fuel efficiency and lower emissions. Same with when people said AMD CPU's were slow simply because their clock rate was not over 3GHz like the Intel Pentium 4 at the time. People should grow out of "bigger is better", otherwise you'll just be a sucker to marketing.

Consider how long blu-ray has been around now and that even new movies have to maintain compatibility with really old players with limited AVC decoders in them.
Maybe a more efficient codec could maintain quality and reduce transmission rates by 10-20%. But >50%, no way. Mpeg is already pretty efficient.

Plus, you should start getting suspicious about iTunes 1080p quality when you realize the files are only about 20-25% bigger than the 720p iTunes files, even pixels have increased by >100%
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Old Jan 23, 2014, 05:18 PM   #57
slenpree
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurtinMinorKey View Post
Maybe a more efficient codec could maintain quality and reduce transmission rates by 10-20%. But >50%, no way. Mpeg is already pretty efficient.

Plus, you should start getting suspicious about iTunes 1080p quality when you realize the files are only about 20-25% bigger than the 720p iTunes files, even pixels have increased by >100%
To be fair, I watch movies from all sorts of different formats (cloud, download and disc based) and through this topic i've tried to discuss the benefits and disadvantages of each. It's important to be down to earth about these things. For instance, you could just as well say that blu-ray has a 5x higher data rate than required for the same perceivable picture quality as iTunes, which in return begins to add minuscule detail.

The most interesting opinions on here are from those who have watched the same movie in both formats and after looking at the benefits of each, hear what they would settle for. There is no right or wrong answer.

P.S. there might twice as many pixels but the scene complexity, motion and contrast of the frames remains the same; don't forget MPEG-4 codec's encode macroblocks, not individual pixels. And then there is 10bit encoding...

Jonathan

Last edited by slenpree; Jan 23, 2014 at 05:25 PM.
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Old Jan 24, 2014, 03:27 AM   #58
phrehdd
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Originally Posted by slenpree View Post
You sound like the sort of person who can't accept other peoples opinions on anything.
If you have seen my past posts, I always mention that if people enjoy what they are using then they should continue. - That is really what it is all about. It is a qualitative measure so to speak.

I will however remain with my statement that blu ray level media is in nature superior to what iTunes offers (presently). This is not about opinion but the facts that remains with each offering and the amount of compression (as well as the absence of HD audio within iTunes offerings).

For me - I have blu ray, I have blu ray level files, I have used iTunes downloads of movies along with Amazon Prime, Netflix and Vudu streaming. With my particular system the blu ray gives the very best image and sound (along with blu ray level files). For some people who have a different grade of system, the ability to distinguish the difference becomes smaller (or if the TV is not calibrated).

If you enjoy iTunes the please do continue to enjoy no matter what others express.

Cheers

Phrehdd
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Old Jan 24, 2014, 08:19 AM   #59
HurtinMinorKey
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Originally Posted by slenpree View Post
P.S. there might twice as many pixels but the scene complexity, motion and contrast of the frames remains the same; don't forget MPEG-4 codec's encode macroblocks, not individual pixels. And then there is 10bit encoding...
Jonathan
I understand, but a compression ratio is a compression ratio. So compared to native, we must conclude that the 1080p is more compressed (much more) than the 720p.
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Old Jan 24, 2014, 09:51 AM   #60
jdechko
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Personally, I favor convenience over technical quality. I still don't own any blu-ray player, and I don't even have a DVD player hooked up to my TV. With the newest handbrake versions, even DVD rips look really good to me, so I don't see a need to spend more money at this point.

Most DVDs I purchase are in the bargain bin or at least on sale, or they are Christmas gifts for my kids. Which brings up another point, digital media can't be scratched up by kids. That rip of Finding Nemo doesn't degrade over time. I never have to clean dirty fingerprints off of a disc or tell my kids they can't watch that movie because it's too badly scratched.

Both of my kids (and I assume many other kids) are smart enough to navigate the AppleTV interface to find Netflix, Youtube, and our library of ripped movies. With movie cover art, even my youngest, who can't yet read, can pick something he wants to watch.

So like I said, personally, convenience > quality.
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Old Jan 27, 2014, 10:03 PM   #61
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I think AppleTV can only stream MP4s up to 720p, even if the source files are 1080p or higher so.... Apple ITunes still can't compete with the physical formats, although you can buy M4V versions of films and download them in 1080p if you play with the ITunes settings - but obviously only watch them at full size on your computer!
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Old Jan 28, 2014, 07:47 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdechko View Post
Personally, I favor convenience over technical quality. I still don't own any blu-ray player, and I don't even have a DVD player hooked up to my TV. With the newest handbrake versions, even DVD rips look really good to me, so I don't see a need to spend more money at this point.

Most DVDs I purchase are in the bargain bin or at least on sale, or they are Christmas gifts for my kids. Which brings up another point, digital media can't be scratched up by kids. That rip of Finding Nemo doesn't degrade over time. I never have to clean dirty fingerprints off of a disc or tell my kids they can't watch that movie because it's too badly scratched.

Both of my kids (and I assume many other kids) are smart enough to navigate the AppleTV interface to find Netflix, Youtube, and our library of ripped movies. With movie cover art, even my youngest, who can't yet read, can pick something he wants to watch.

So like I said, personally, convenience > quality.
I'm the same way, I rather have the convenience over the quality. I got a blu-ray player and used it 5-10 times if that. I wish I never got it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rankinmikee View Post
I think AppleTV can only stream MP4s up to 720p, even if the source files are 1080p or higher so.... Apple ITunes still can't compete with the physical formats, although you can buy M4V versions of films and download them in 1080p if you play with the ITunes settings - but obviously only watch them at full size on your computer!
Apple TV 3 is 1080p Apple TV is 720p
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Old Jan 28, 2014, 09:27 PM   #63
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This thread is so ironic
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Old Jan 29, 2014, 12:54 AM   #64
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Plex.

The end.
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Old Jan 29, 2014, 12:55 AM   #65
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iTunes vs Blu Ray

90% of people can't see well enough to know there is a difference. They other 10% couldn't care or don't understand.

Convenience rules.
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Old Jan 29, 2014, 08:51 PM   #66
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While I do get movies from iTunes from time to time, they really don't hold a candle to Blu Ray in quality. That's a fact, and everyone who says otherwise probably is watching on small TVs, or computer monitors. On a big screen TV (I would say 50" and above) the difference is pretty obvious. iTunes shows compression artifacts a lot, which are non existent on a Blu ray.

iTunes wins in convenience. But for video and audio quality, Blu ray is by far the champion. iTunes is acceptable in most cases, but far from perfect
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