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Old Apr 8, 2013, 12:41 PM   #1
acearchie
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Raw video under $1000

I'm sure you have all heard of the Blackmagic Cinema Camera.

Well today they released two new models. A super 35mm 4K production camera and a S16 M43 1080p ProRes camera only slightly larger than an iPhone. The price for the second camera is $995.

No more excuses. It is possibly to buy a professional cinema camera which will be able to record raw video (with a firmware update).

I think this news is incredibly exciting.

I can't help but feel a little sorry for those who still haven't received their black magic cinema cameras because for $1000 more you could have got the new production camera which has some significant improvements.

Anyone going to take the plunge and buy?
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Old Apr 8, 2013, 01:29 PM   #2
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Yeah it's great news! I love how quickly things are developing! I'm an indie filmmaker and this is most welcome news... BUT, they need to maintain a reliable availability of these cameras, or they're done for!

I love BlackMagic, they're like the Apple of the video production world.
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Old Apr 8, 2013, 02:49 PM   #3
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Yeah it's great news! I love how quickly things are developing! I'm an indie filmmaker and this is most welcome news... BUT, they need to maintain a reliable availability of these cameras, or they're done for!

I love BlackMagic, they're like the Apple of the video production world.
I have seen a lot of people bash them over the past few months.

As far as I can see the production issues have not been their fault and more the fault of having to generate a completely new production process to provide these cameras and dirt cheap prices. I am really hoping that July means July this time and I am very tempted to pick up a BMPCC as it's virtually the same camera that was released last year but a fraction of the cost and size!
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Old Apr 8, 2013, 03:11 PM   #4
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I have seen a lot of people bash them over the past few months.

As far as I can see the production issues have not been their fault and more the fault of having to generate a completely new production process to provide these cameras and dirt cheap prices.
It is their ressponsibulity to get the manufacturing process right before taking orders.

It will be interesting to see if they do better with these new cameras.
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Old Apr 8, 2013, 06:41 PM   #5
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No more excuses. It is possibly to buy a professional cinema camera which will be able to record raw video (with a firmware update).
28 Days Later, Open Water, November (best Cinematography winner at Sundance), Murderball... all shot on MiniDV cameras. People have had access to 'good enough' for over a decade. Doc in my sig was shot on MiniDV and came out on iTunes, Netflix, cable VOD, etc. last year. Anyone in this day and age who is still waiting on 'the right gear' doesn't want to make anything except excuses. /rant.


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It is their ressponsibulity to get the manufacturing process right before taking orders.
The manufacturing process was right. The first batch of cameras were fine then their sensor supplier unknowing received a bad batch of sensor covering glass from their glass supplier and that was the source of the problem. It took time to figure out it was faulty glass, fix the glass, fix the faulty Q/A process, get new glass to the sensor supplier, get new sensors to Blackmagic's manufacturing facility, get them into the cameras, test them and then finally ship them. Hell, even with the delay they still have quicker turn around time than RED or D-Bolex.
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Last edited by LethalWolfe; Apr 8, 2013 at 08:13 PM. Reason: fixed one typo... probably still missed a few others.
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Old Apr 8, 2013, 06:50 PM   #6
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28 Days Later, Open Water, November (best Cinematography winner at Sundance), Murderball... all shot on MiniDV cameras. People have had access to 'good enough' for over a decade. Doc in my sig was shot on MiniDV and came out on iTunes, Netflix, cable VOD, etc. last year. Anyone in this day and age who is still waiting on 'the right gear' doesn't want to making anything except excuses. /rant.

^this right here.

the latest and greatest toys are fun... but at the end of the day, a creative filmmaker can blow you away with an iPhone or old VHS-C camera. Its not the tools that make your work great, its the artist behind those tools.
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Old Apr 8, 2013, 08:37 PM   #7
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How does FCPX handle CinemaDNG? Can it work with it natively, or does it only edit offline?
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Old Apr 8, 2013, 09:26 PM   #8
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File size?

Yeah, Pro Res is cool and all. But before I hurry up and start waiting to get one, does anyone know how much disk space am I gonna need to transfer one hour's worth of video shot in Pro Res on this camera? 10gb/hr?, 20gb/hr?

Thanks.

I'm also looking at the Canon stuff right now. Vixia HF-M50 w/wide angle lens on the lower side, HF-G10/20 on the mid, and the more expensive G30 and XA-20 (both new).

I mean it would be great to shoot in Pro Res, but I don't know if I can keep up with the amount of hard disk storage I'd have to buy.

Tim
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Old Apr 8, 2013, 10:34 PM   #9
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Regular ProRes 422 at 720p60 is about 75gig/hr and 1080p24 is about 60gig/hr.
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Old Apr 8, 2013, 10:42 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by LethalWolfe View Post
28 Days Later, Open Water, November (best Cinematography winner at Sundance), Murderball... all shot on MiniDV cameras. People have had access to 'good enough' for over a decade. Doc in my sig was shot on MiniDV and came out on iTunes, Netflix, cable VOD, etc. last year. Anyone in this day and age who is still waiting on 'the right gear' doesn't want to make anything except excuses. /rant.
Slightly off topic, but zombie movies are really great.

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Originally Posted by LethalWolfe View Post
The manufacturing process was right. The first batch of cameras were fine then their sensor supplier unknowing received a bad batch of sensor covering glass from their glass supplier and that was the source of the problem. It took time to figure out it was faulty glass, fix the glass, fix the faulty Q/A process, get new glass to the sensor supplier, get new sensors to Blackmagic's manufacturing facility, get them into the cameras, test them and then finally ship them. Hell, even with the delay they still have quicker turn around time than RED or D-Bolex.
What do you dislike about RED?
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Old Apr 8, 2013, 11:03 PM   #11
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Slightly off topic, but zombie movies are really great.
28 Days Later really brought zombie movies back from b-movie shlock though I'm surprised the resurgence of the genre has lasted so long.

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What do you dislike about RED?
Just a playful jab at how long it takes them from announcing a product to full scale shipping of the product. Partly 'tis a downside to being so open about development, I know.
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Old Apr 9, 2013, 12:32 AM   #12
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28 Days Later really brought zombie movies back from b-movie shlock though I'm surprised the resurgence of the genre has lasted so long.
I liked the concept prior to that, but I agree the resurgence was surprising. I can't think of anything in the way of mainstream shows that relied on zombie themes prior to the walking dead.

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Just a playful jab at how long it takes them from announcing a product to full scale shipping of the product. Partly 'tis a downside to being so open about development, I know.
I get you now. I always liked RED. They've done some really cool things with their hardware. When it comes to some of the slightly higher cost items, there are always rental options, although the Black Magic one sounds very nice. At that price I will have to look at one. The next thing I would like to see is some convergence of grading tools between still and video, especially when it comes to raw processing rather than the rudimentary adjustments outside of dealing with fully rasterized and debayered data.
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Old Apr 9, 2013, 02:55 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by LethalWolfe View Post
28 Days Later, Open Water, November (best Cinematography winner at Sundance), Murderball... all shot on MiniDV cameras. People have had access to 'good enough' for over a decade. Doc in my sig was shot on MiniDV and came out on iTunes, Netflix, cable VOD, etc. last year. Anyone in this day and age who is still waiting on 'the right gear' doesn't want to make anything except excuses. /rant.
Whilst I take your point and agree that it's creativity that tends to trump quality of production when the XL1 was released it was $3300. Of course you could buy it now for a fraction of that cost but the look you would get from it wouldn't really emulate what you could see in the cinema nowadays. In my opinion this is the first time that consumers have the necessary tools to emulate what we see on the cinema screen today. The resolution and colours that came out of the BMCC and therefore hopefully this camera were jaw dropping, for me at least, and the quality of the image really blew me away. For the price of what many consumers are dropping on a hobbyist camera I really do see this as a step forward and I look forward to seeing what people come up with.
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Old Apr 9, 2013, 07:48 AM   #14
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Whilst I take your point and agree that it's creativity that tends to trump quality of production when the XL1 was released it was $3300. Of course you could buy it now for a fraction of that cost but the look you would get from it wouldn't really emulate what you could see in the cinema nowadays. In my opinion this is the first time that consumers have the necessary tools to emulate what we see on the cinema screen today. The resolution and colours that came out of the BMCC and therefore hopefully this camera were jaw dropping, for me at least, and the quality of the image really blew me away. For the price of what many consumers are dropping on a hobbyist camera I really do see this as a step forward and I look forward to seeing what people come up with.
Bang for the buck has certainly gotten better (and will only continue to do so) and every year or two there is a new 'it' camera that's going to change everything but that never happens. The most recent camera that really shoot things up was the 5DM2 and that was by total accident. If a consumer or hobbyist can't emulate the cinematic look they want using any of the DSLRs that have come out since the 5DM2 then BM Pocket Camera isn't going to change that.

The camera is only a grand but even buying a bare bones lens package, rig, monitor (possibly follow focus), fluid head tripod tripod, extra cards, spare batteries, etc., and you just spent 2-3x what the camera cost. That doesn't even get you any lighting gear (which is arguably more important than the camera). No audio gear either and poor sounding audio will scuttle a finished project way faster than poor looking video. Costuming, makeup, set design, editing, cinematography, sound design, VFX (especially VFX that you 'don't see'), color correction, etc., all culminate into what we ultimately see and hear as a finished movie or TV shows. A camera is just one piece in that cinematic puzzle.

Not trying to sound negative but I hear similar thoughts from people in the indie film community all the time and it makes me want to scream. If you want to make something that looks like a Hollywood movie but you don't have a Hollywood budget nor access to Hollywood level professionals what you need is skill, determination, ingenuity, determination, talent and determination. The difference maker you need does not come in a box. Unless it's a box full of determination!
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Old Apr 9, 2013, 05:22 PM   #15
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Well I certainly have no intention of just bashing for the sake of bashing, but the Black Magic announcements of the two new cameras doesn't excite me in the least.

From a tech/price/development standpoint sure. But how long ago did they announce the first one? And many people still don't have one (i.e. cant get their hands on one)??

I whole heartedly wish Black Magic the best. But I have to think there are lots of folks with tempered excitement based on past performance in terms of availability.

And me thinks that those folks not worried about it, are the ones blowing us away with their work...using whatever means/equipment necessary...and AVAILABLE now.

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Old Apr 9, 2013, 07:53 PM   #16
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The BMCC was meh, Their new 4K offering seems intriguing but it's not the right type of camera for me, I don't need filmic look for my line of work, I need sharpest possible details and killer 1080p. Wonder how the 1080p will look on it. Personally I'm more excited about Canon's upcoming offerings set to replace the XF models. I just picked up another XF100 because they're going for under $2500 and that's a great deal... their picture quality is great after you work it in post and I love the XLR inputs which are a must for filming concerts.
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Old Apr 9, 2013, 11:13 PM   #17
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Not trying to sound negative but I hear similar thoughts from people in the indie film community all the time and it makes me want to scream. If you want to make something that looks like a Hollywood movie but you don't have a Hollywood budget nor access to Hollywood level professionals what you need is skill, determination, ingenuity, determination, talent and determination. The difference maker you need does not come in a box. Unless it's a box full of determination!
A couple of local lads made a zombie flick back in 2003 (Undead), around the time my interest in video was beginning to take off. Being from this area, I took an interest in the mechanics of the film and although I can't remember what it was shot on (DV wouldn't surprise me), I read it was edited with Premiere with effects by AE. The PC was old and clapped out and they were rebooting it hourly just to get the film made. And they did.

These boys were going to make a movie no matter what.

Although not critically acclaimed, I loved it. They have since gone on to bigger and better things, and hopefully less crashy PCs.
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Old Apr 10, 2013, 01:48 AM   #18
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Bang for the buck has certainly gotten better (and will only continue to do so) and every year or two there is a new 'it' camera that's going to change everything but that never happens. The most recent camera that really shoot things up was the 5DM2 and that was by total accident. If a consumer or hobbyist can't emulate the cinematic look they want using any of the DSLRs that have come out since the 5DM2 then BM Pocket Camera isn't going to change that.
I remember a short film shot on the 5DMII came out just after its official launch, which brought a lot of press to its capabilities.

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The BMCC was meh, Their new 4K offering seems intriguing but it's not the right type of camera for me, I don't need filmic look for my line of work, I need sharpest possible details and killer 1080p. Wonder how the 1080p will look on it. Personally I'm more excited about Canon's upcoming offerings set to replace the XF models. I just picked up another XF100 because they're going for under $2500 and that's a great deal... their picture quality is great after you work it in post and I love the XLR inputs which are a must for filming concerts.
I'm wondering whether the 4K would still look better. Bayer array sensors tend to reproduce poor detail in reds and blues. Obviously it has gotten way better, but I'm curious how one processed to a lower resolution would look compared to a native 1080 camera. I've never been able to find a direct comparison, which is why I say that. If nothing else the 4K would grant you a little extra room on the frame to help stabilize and reframe the shot if necessary without a lot of paint work.
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