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Old Apr 9, 2013, 08:48 PM   #126
skaertus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
There is evidence that this is not Intel's only 2 core offering that will be rolling out this year.

The FUDzilla article mentions ULT processors. CPU-world has commented on Intels 2013-2014 rollout plans for desktops and mobiles and names U processors that are on track for release with the desktops.
ULT processors are going to be released sooner than 35W processors.

But the 13" MacBook Pro will come with the 35W processors, and they will likely come only in Q4 2013. Or should we expect a refresh to come earlier?
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Old Apr 10, 2013, 12:25 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by skaertus View Post
But the 13" MacBook Pro will come with the 35W processors, and they will likely come only in Q4 2013. Or should we expect a refresh to come earlier?
There shouldn't be any 35W Haswell offerings. 37W, but not 35. Intel moved some of the voltage regulation to the CPU packages so matching TDP can't be the same thing from previous generations.

They may split the MBP 13" model from the rest of the line up though. That doesn't mean the rest aren't being updated. The rMBP 13" slid to October 2012. The tweak and bump in February ( less than 6 months later) is odd. But so is three different 13" models. That isn't going to last.

Apple has three moves with the MBP 13"

a. terminate it on update of rest of line up around June/July. Going forward with just MBA and rMBP 13" models. The rMBP 13" was just bumped so waiting till Q4 isn't so bad. In short, Q4 for dual core doesn't matter because no MBP 13". ( the whole "the numbers are short of expectations" is prep to make the case why axing the model )

b. Find a way use the 47W quads (or some lower TDP quads ) in the MBP 13". There have been some reductions in support chips TDP so may have clawed back enough power savings to offset the shift to more cores. If going to stay in the line-up, it needs a much larger differential between it and the other 13" models. ( a quad + discrete GPU while ditching ODD to align with that direction would certainly be different. )


c. Another terminate but they limp along till Q4 after minor speed bump.
( the rMBP got bumped with i5 3230 and i7 3540, but MBP 13" didn't. they saved the bump for a going away update later. )
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Old Apr 10, 2013, 01:40 AM   #128
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Any realistic predictions on what the 13'' MBA model this year will feature?

Chances of another price drop likes last year at WWDC?

Haswell processor
OS X 10.9

What also would Apple most likely add?

----------

Any realistic predictions on what the 13'' MBA model this year will feature?

Chances of another price drop likes last year at WWDC?

Haswell processor
802.11ac Wi-Fi
OS X 10.9

What also would Apple most likely add?
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Old Apr 10, 2013, 02:27 AM   #129
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I think apple should bring back the plastic MacBook at a lower price point than before. They should also set rid of the 13" MBP and just have 13" rMBP. Perhaps get rid of the 15" MBP leaving the 15" rMBP and replacing the non retina model with a 17" model. Also, something has to be done with the resolution on the 11" Air.
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Old Apr 10, 2013, 09:07 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Squilly View Post
They do. The iPad
An iPad could be considered a computer but certainly not a laptop.
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Old Apr 10, 2013, 09:26 AM   #131
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The retina display is incredibly overrated (vs the hi res displays never mind the horsepower needed to support it) and SSD memory is too expensive for the amount I need.
I could not disagree more. For some serious work, the retina is quickly becoming a #2 requirement, after an SSD. I don't want to wait for my computer, ever. It's a 1980s thing to wait for computers. First, cassette tapes, then floppies, then hard disks. No more, I want an SSD. Crucial has just announced a 1TB one for $600, so prices are going in the right direction, as was to be expected.

About the retina display: it's the only one that offers resolution independence. If you set your 1920x1080 Windows screen to 1440x800 when you want to do some lazy surfing in the couch, it'll look ugly. With retina, the "fake" resolutions look absolutely as perfect as native resolutions. I can set the 13" rMBP to 1280x800 for some surfing or to 1600 resolution for work, with a working window left and a data window right, and both look as good.

Because I refuse to buy three mobile devices, a good retina laptop + a good smartphone are perfect. And cheaper than buying laptop+smartphone+iPad, too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bwillwall View Post
An iPad could be considered a computer but certainly not a laptop.
Could be considered a computer ? Hmm. I would use that phrasing in relationship to cars and other non-obvious computers these days ("My Tesla could be considered a computer."). The iPad is so obviously a large pocket computer that it is, for me, perfectly incompatible with having a true pocket computer that also allows me to make calls.

It is, however, a laptop because it resides on laps more of the time than on desks (where you find "desktops") or in pockets (where you find "pocket computers", the traditional name before somebody in marketing dubbed them PDAs or, when they got wireless modems, smartphones).




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Old Apr 10, 2013, 12:44 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by PeterJP View Post
I could not disagree more. For some serious work, the retina is quickly becoming a #2 requirement, after an SSD. ...

... With retina, the "fake" resolutions look absolutely as perfect as native resolutions. I can set the 13" rMBP to 1280x800 for some surfing or to 1600 resolution for work, with a working window left and a data window right, and both look as good.
But... surfing is where the Retina is a fail because the vast majority of the web doesn't support 2x resolution for images or videos.

Setting to 1600 for work bypasses Retina as you are simply displaying the same pixel resolution as a non-Retina display -- it just looks a little better scaled because you have a smaller dot size on the screen to show the scaled result.

So neither of what you describe seems optimal for a Retina display to me.

I want 1920x1080* Retina displays. I'd be happy with an external Retina monitor that could do that. What we have now is a compromise for a big price.


* Or preferably 1920x1200
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Old Apr 10, 2013, 04:52 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by datamonger128 View Post
Also, something has to be done with the resolution on the 11" Air.
yeah, but I hope they can keep it retinafree a little bit longer so you can use the mba for a little actual computing, not just use all it's power for an extremely nice looking screen with added heat and a terrible battery life...

do you think a 12" 1440 x 900 screen could work or does it get too small?
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Old Apr 10, 2013, 05:13 PM   #134
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My guess is :

Haswell processors
Faster wireless
Option to upgrade to 768 gb ssd ( probably costs a bomb)
Unchanged form factor

Unlikely, but I feel apple should retain only the 128gb 11" and 13" models (and introduce a small price drop). Ram will likely still stay at 4gb. I feel their laptop line is becoming a little too bloated.

I keep hearing about those fable igzo screens, what are the chances we will see those introduced?

Highly unlikely - some custom intel + arm processor hybrid, but we may see that only in 2014.

Thoughts?
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Old Apr 10, 2013, 10:22 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by umbilical View Post
yes!!! I waiting too for a better price on the 15 retina!

what price you expect? from $2,199 to $1,799
YES! 1799 would be perfect because that would put refurbs at around 1599! that would actually allow me to buy one! im sorry but 2200 (excluding taxes) on a computer that does not have industry leading specs (besides a really hi-res screen) is not something worth it...especially with the graphics processor it has
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Old Apr 11, 2013, 12:08 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Szarky View Post
I am in the exact same position and think a lot of average users are too: putting off our Mac purchases because of the iPhones/iPads. I've had my iMac for over 5 years now and as tempted as I am to get the next rMBP, realistically I'll probably wait another couple years. My iPad though is only 2 years old and I've been bitching to the girlfriend how I "absolutely NEED to upgrade to the next iPad." Why? Because I'm on the iPhone/iPad 80-90% of the time. I consider myself your average user, I don't do any real work on the iMac, majority is just to download music and movies.
Sounds about right. I mean when I need to edit our website for work from home or *try* to write some in my book, I need a desktop. Or when SimCity becomes available I can play it on here.

Otherwise, I'm pretty much on an iOS device. I would love to get a MacBook Air to add to the collection, but I think I'm going to have to do with my -- gulp -- Windows 7 notebook. I just don't think I'd get $1200 of use out of an MBA unless I started writing full-time.

So for what I do most -- reading stuff online -- it's iPad or iPhone. I always have my iPhone and usually have my iPad. So I tailor my stuff on there for what I do most and don't really have a need to change at home. But it sure is nice to have that hunk of storage for all my media and documents. Plus paying most bills using the iPad browser is crap, so I gotta do that on a desktop browser.
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Old Apr 11, 2013, 09:19 PM   #137
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Interesting comment I read about the Retina display in browsing context. This is true that many websites can't display well at 4x what was considered a high resolution a few months before. However, how does the Mac scales everything to keep it readable? Working mostly on texts, sometimes with very small characters, Retina would surely make a huge difference.

On the other hand, I wish they won't let the "classic" MBP down. RAM is not upgradeable in the Retina models, and I couldn't do without my 16GB, that is not even available as an option from Apple. For the sake of speed, they reduced the base storage available three fold. There is no way I could get as much horsepower in a Retina MBP 13" than I have in my "classic" 13" MBP. External storage may only do the job to a point, since having a laptop, at least for me, implies being away from said media for length of time. Home internet connections are just not fast enough to serve high quality media over the Internet, and wifi coverage is still full of holed. andy9l, until said challenges are solved, there's nothing that could comfortably replace large storage capacity. Such capacities are still not available in SSDs.

Unfortunately, the trend seem to be not caring for people who need to get heavy work done on Apple's machines: Mac Pro has yet to see an update, MacBook Pro Retina favors thinness above upgradeability, iMac, same. Granted, many customers seem to be clueless spoiled college girls

What baffles me is how they crammed a higher capacity battery inside similar-sized Retina and "classic" models, but still got the exact same runtime.
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Old Apr 12, 2013, 05:52 AM   #138
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Hi,

I have to admit that I haven't worked a lot on Retina. I've played around in a shop and I came away impressed. So, from that little experience, a few questions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcc View Post
But... surfing is where the Retina is a fail because the vast majority of the web doesn't support 2x resolution for images or videos.
Doesn't that just make the images/video as "fail" as on normal screens ? At the same time, the text is still way nicer. Sure, it would be great if the images were *also* more detailed. But now, they're just displayed pixel-doubled, which gives the same dpi as a non-retina screen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcc View Post
Setting to 1600 for work bypasses Retina as you are simply displaying the same pixel resolution as a non-Retina display -- it just looks a little better scaled because you have a smaller dot size on the screen to show the scaled result.
Exactly. I usually work in text, so everything looks way better anyway. And switching to a non-native resolution looks way-way better because the dots are so small you don't see any jaggies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcc View Post
I want 1920x1080 or preferably 1920x1200 displays.
With such a display, you lose the ability to switch between resolutions without getting jaggies.

That's what I'm getting at: with Retina, you get more than one screen. You can set it to low-res, with big UI elements and text, and it looks great. Or you can set it to high-res, with small UI elements and text, and it still looks great. If you try that on a standard screen, it sucks. Set your 1920x1080 screen to 1280x800 and see how it looks.

The images issue is just temporary. It's like the good old days when websites were done in plain HTML and not layed out. If you look at such a website now, you ask yourself when the webmaster is finally going to admit the web has moved on. The web will move on towards high res images that can be shown well on ultra high-res displays, too.


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Old Apr 12, 2013, 04:50 PM   #139
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The current 13 MBP doesn't deserve the PRO label on them. They should be called just "Macbook" and their price to be dropped to 999$. They have discontinued this trend back in 2010. But heck, this whole thing is pretty smart move by apple, fooling people like that. You've got to give it to them

Now, I own Early 2009 17" MBP. Celebrated 4 years just 2 days ago and has to work hard to keep up with everything. I'd be really happy if Apple reintroduced the 17" Version, but fat chance. Apple doesn't care about actual professionals anymore. It seems like all they care about is design and selling as much as they can. I can only wonder when the ax comes down on the Mac Pro...

Upgrading to the Late 2011 17" may not quite cut it, but in the end that's probably what I'll have to do. I don't want to settle for a 15" display, even if it has a "supreme" display. large real estate display is what matters to me
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Old Apr 12, 2013, 11:14 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Mike Valmike View Post
A "discreet" graphics card? I surmise you mean one that keeps your web-surfing habits secret from your wife, but knows it's okay to show your buddies?
haha, my bad!

Quote:
Originally Posted by KPOM View Post
Even the Core 2 Duos didn't have discrete graphics. It's just that Intel allowed others, such as NVIDIA, to make integrated graphics chipsets. That ended with the switch to the Core i3/i5/i7 line.
Apologies, i was mis-informed, but you can't argue that with the form factor blurring between MBAs and MBPs, it should be a defining characteristic of a 'pro' model. Then again, Apple don't really care about that anymore and it would simply undermine the sales of the 15" model.
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Old Apr 13, 2013, 03:46 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Mr Fusion View Post
I hope the future of their laptop line is just one type of machine:
- Air body
- Pro features (external optical if needed)
- Retina display
In 11, 13, 15 & 17" sizes. Add an Apple-designed discrete graphics card (so it'll fit in the Air's body) as a BTO option.

One model. Four sizes. Keep things nice and simple.

I would much rather Apple left GPU design to the 2 experts in that field.. They'd be years behind anything AMD or NVidia would have to offer.

The problem you would have with a discrete GPU in a MBA or 13" MBP is space for the thermal management. Those things run hot.
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Old Apr 13, 2013, 01:06 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterJP View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwward View Post
The retina display is incredibly overrated (vs the hi res displays never mind the horsepower needed to support it) and SSD memory is too expensive for the amount I need.
I couldn't disagree more....I want an SSD. Crucial has just announced a 1TB one for $600, so prices are going in the right direction, as was to be expected.
Just briefly, in my own defense. I said SSD was too expensive for me in the amount I need.

I have no opinion as to the cost of SSD relative to your needs.

And I accept that one day we will all rejoice in a world of SSD and Retina displays with all of the world actually supporting retina displays. Until that time, I stand by my earlier comments.

And as regards my need for a new MBP, the fact that it appears that a refresh isn't coming until mid Q3 actually makes me feel much better about just buying a current MBP non-retina with a 1 TB good ole fashioned hard drive.

Last edited by dwward; Apr 13, 2013 at 01:22 PM.
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Old Apr 13, 2013, 05:15 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by unobtainium View Post
All these phantom problems with the rMBP. They don't actually exist in the proportion people claim they do, but nevertheless forum posters keep harping on about them. (People who are trying to talk themselves out of a purchase, I suspect.)

Bought one in March. Love it. Have had zero problems and I can honestly say it's my favourite laptop I've ever owned.
I had the phantom problem with my 15", also the display glitched once in a while (horizontal lines of static). The 15" is still a great machine.

I don't have this problem with my 13" retina.

I think the bigger issue is that people have had trouble getting their machines/displays replaced because the ghosting does not always appear with Apple's test protocol, but it is easily demonstrable. I liken it to dead pixels - Apple will only replace a screen if it meets specific criteria. So, buying a laptop (any laptop) is a gamble. Dead pixels are a known but acceptable problem (heck, with a retina display, probably unnoticeable). But ghosting effects the entire screen, and as someone who had to code with a ghosting screen, it is really bad and difficult to use. But if Apple isn't replacing screens that pass their test but ghost during normal use, then to me I'd be really concerned about plunking down 2.5K on a possible headache.

Sorry for the long post The ghosting issue was one I was never able to get resolved...
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Old Apr 13, 2013, 06:52 PM   #144
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reverse halo effect

Interesting watching Dell's fall from greatness. back in the day they used to at least offer ALL the latest and greatest hardware so the customer could max out performance, if so desired. Then they adopted the "its good enough for the masses" idiots philosophy which is stock in trade for bean counters, and since then, major decline. I think this is what Apple may be doing as they abandon their most loyal and biggest spending high end power users who want Mac pros and 17" Macbook Pros with lots of options. The reverse halo effect is never pretty.
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Old Apr 13, 2013, 09:19 PM   #145
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i would like to see those prices drop. would make it easier to upgrade on a quicker timeframe
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Old Apr 14, 2013, 09:57 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by trajan2448 View Post
Then [Dell] adopted the "its good enough for the masses" idiots philosophy which is stock in trade for bean counters, and since then, major decline. I think this is what Apple may be doing as they abandon their most loyal and biggest spending high end power users who want Mac pros and 17" Macbook Pros with lots of options. The reverse halo effect is never pretty.
It seemed to me that what made Apple unique was a figure like Steve Jobs at the helm who had the power to do what was necessary to get the product he wanted even if doing so wasn't the best business approach. Delays, redesigns late in the process, etc cost real money. Such figures with ultimate power and impeccable aesthetic/good taste are incredibly rare in publicly traded companies. Now Steve is gone and while Apple is still a very well run company, it's now much more like every other publicly traded company where 'good enough' best practices appear to be the order of the day and a less than perfect design isn't going to get in the way of a need to get a new product out in response to competition. It makes me sad but it was inevitable. Regression to the mean, and all that.
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Old Apr 17, 2013, 04:10 AM   #147
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Hope... :S

I really hope they will put a new graphic card in the 15" Retina. This would be the trigger for me to get a new one. Do you think this would be one of the upgrades for June ?
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Old Apr 17, 2013, 11:29 PM   #148
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Those rMBPs are too darn expensive

Why can't apple make some cut on the price of SSDs? Everyone knows SSDs are dropping price these days why apple SSDs need to be so expensive?
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Old Apr 18, 2013, 12:23 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by mrvicadai View Post
Why can't apple make some cut on the price of SSDs? Everyone knows SSDs are dropping price these days why apple SSDs need to be so expensive?
They make a ton of profit of the upgrades. It's pretty simple.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kebabselector View Post
For most people the screen on the 13" MBP is the reason it doesn't sell.

1280x800 for that price. (the very reflective glass screen cover doesn't help it either)
I disagree. I think it's related to the fact that a 13'' doesn't have any advantages over an Air.

A Macbook Air 13'' is the best notebook for the average computer. 7 hours of battery, comparable performance that is good enough for anything but games/video/sound/photo editing(of the more extreme kind). its good for school, its extremely light, its thin.


the 13'' doesnt have a GPU. it's fat, and for all the whining on forums the average bob joe doesn't care for upgrading his own computer with new ram. and the retina version has only a better screen which is not essential for the average joe.



Frankly its not surprising that the Air is their new main seller. It's the best value for money, it's what makes the most sense. And came with Sandy Bridge, and Ivy just gave us even better performance.


I think a new Air with Haswell could get a reduced bezel using the same edge to glass tech that the retina models have, but I dont think the Airs need Retina technology if it means killing the battery or increasing the price with many hundreds of dollars.



Quote:
Originally Posted by trajan2448 View Post
Interesting watching Dell's fall from greatness. back in the day they used to at least offer ALL the latest and greatest hardware so the customer could max out performance, if so desired. Then they adopted the "its good enough for the masses" idiots philosophy which is stock in trade for bean counters, and since then, major decline. I think this is what Apple may be doing as they abandon their most loyal and biggest spending high end power users who want Mac pros and 17" Macbook Pros with lots of options. The reverse halo effect is never pretty.

Dell made a lot of bad choices. questionable build quality and bad customer service was always the stable. many people I know have had Dell laptops that overheated due to poor ventilation.



When you try a Macbook in a store, you feel the difference. You feel the unibody. They still have high quality. The 15 inch Retina Macbook, is the best computer(arguable) they have ever build. It's not for everyone, but the technical leaps and feats of engineering was yet another "Holy ****" from the tech industry.
they introduced the massive screen pixel density increase in recent memory, they made the first real blend of a ultrabook and a serious powerhouse. a mobile work station, which has been the ideal laptop fantasy since the beginning.
the only con? the massive price, and for some(a larger footprint than their 11-13'')

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolf69 View Post
I really hope they will put a new graphic card in the 15" Retina. This would be the trigger for me to get a new one. Do you think this would be one of the upgrades for June ?
I don't think so. I believe the new Kepler units have been delayed until Q4

But nobody knows for certain yet.



But TBH, the OCed 650m in the Retina MBP, is a godly card. Consider how thin this computer is for a moment!!! Are you sure you need more dGPU performance?

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by twoodcc View Post
i would like to see those prices drop. would make it easier to upgrade on a quicker timeframe
Have you thought about the notion that maybe we wont update our Laptops as often as we used to now that we go into SSD world?


SSDs dont slow down over time like hard drives do. peoples computer feels slow after years of hard drive usage and then they buy a new one. a SSD is much more efficent and reliable and long term speedy. it will feel snappier for a lot longer, and combined with more external storage and cloud storage and streaming content I am beginning to think that people will update their computers less frequently.


Another factor; tablets and smartphones are new players , and a lot of internet websites need to accommodate for these low power factor machines. It brings increase in needed performance to a halt for certain services, making your laptop viable for longer.

So why not charge a bigger premium and expect consumers to hang on to their machines for a few years longer?


computers will continue to have their marked stolen by tablets. It will happen and keep happening as people continue to be able to be able to do more of their daily needs sorely on a Ipad, for example.
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 07:06 PM   #150
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I checked out the 15" rMBP at the Apple store today. Amazingly fast compared to my 2010 i7 17" MBP. The screen looks fantastic. Keynote, Aperture run really fast. According to Geekbench it is a little over twice as fast as my current machine.

The price was not bad. I'm looking at $2199 which is quite a bit less than what I paid for the 17" I have now. I usually upgrade about every three years so this is saving me a little bit of money.

For the home office I'll probably get a 27" Thunderbolt monitor and add a hard drive and keyboard. I travel a lot on business. Replacing the 17" with the 15" will make traveling a little easier (smaller computer bag) while the large monitor will make it easy to work with video, Aperture, Keynote, Page, iBooks Author and other document creation at home.

I've tried using VPN (splashtop) to access my home machine from the road. It works as an emergency way to get a file or do a brief calculation. Too slow and awkward for routine work.

Having used the iPad 3 for the past year I am spoiled by the retina displays.
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