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Old Mar 24, 2013, 01:21 PM   #51
jknight8907
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Originally Posted by 92jlee View Post
Replacing books with consumer devices that will be obsolete in a few years. Fantastic idea.
Paper approach plates have a 28-day life. After that they are expired and must be updated. That's a lot of paper. Buying a new iPad every few years is still a massive saving over paper. We use iPads in our aircraft, and have for a couple of years now. The cost savings over paper charts, the weight savings, and the ease of updating is amazing. Also the added safety features are unreal.
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Old Mar 24, 2013, 08:56 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by BvizioN View Post
.


Originally Posted by taylorharris50
Airline magazines also contribute to disease transmission. Sick passengers sneeze in their hands while reading the magazines, put them back in the seat pocket, and the next passenger gets exposed.


There is a short amount of time for bacteria's/viruses to survive after they have left the human body.
She knows that but is probably a germ freak.
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Old Mar 24, 2013, 11:03 PM   #53
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These companies are going to love Apple when they change the form factor or connector on future iPads ad hoc. All the money that went into these holders, connectors, etc. will go out the window.


I just hope Apple pays attention to the Enterprise market, whether it is the iPhone or iMac for that matter.
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Old Mar 25, 2013, 03:01 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by coolspot18 View Post
These companies are going to love Apple when they change the form factor or connector on future iPads ad hoc. All the money that went into these holders, connectors, etc. will go out the window.


I just hope Apple pays attention to the Enterprise market, whether it is the iPhone or iMac for that matter.
Yeah, because Apple has a reputation for changing the connector every decade. I'd worry too.

Also, every form factor change instantly makes all previous iDevices obsolete. Heck, with the recent home button leaks, my iPhone 5 doesn't even work anymore.
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Old Mar 25, 2013, 03:57 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by SILen(e View Post
Then they'd still have the second iPad that's in the cockpit.

And for the very vital procedures, they still have the paper manual.
You could easily imagine a software update intruducing a bug where the pdf viewer locks at some particular point in a pdf.
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Old Mar 25, 2013, 05:11 AM   #56
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bacteria/viruses are pretty tough

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Originally Posted by BvizioN View Post
There is a short amount of time for bacteria's/viruses to survive after they have left the human body.
I am afraid that whilst I am not remotely concerned about using books manuals etc that other people have touched....something we do all day everyday.... The statement that bacteria/viruses can only live for a shirt time out of the body is complete tosh on the whole, have you by any chance recently re-watched 'Outbreak'?

Whilst a small number of bacteria/viruses are poor survivors in certain environments, generally they are exceptionally hardy. There was even a report by NASA that some streptococci survived in the vacuum of space during the Apollo missions after an accidental contamination by ground crew......
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Old Mar 25, 2013, 07:23 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by 00sjsl View Post
You could easily imagine a software update intruducing a bug where the pdf viewer locks at some particular point in a pdf.
I doubt that those iPads will ever see a "iOS 6.2 has been released, would you like to download and install it?" update.

As they are not used to surf the web, there are not many reasons to update the software of the OS or the apps used to display the maps and manuals.

It's just like computers still running Windows 95 at some companies, because they are used to run software that would be too expensive to port to newer OS'.
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Old Mar 25, 2013, 07:38 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by techpr View Post
40 pounds ls a lot in Aviation terms. the iPad is here to stay for long time, don't worry.
Yeah, until a plane falls out of the sky because the ipads didn't work.
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Old Mar 25, 2013, 08:32 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Luis Ortega View Post
Yeah, until a plane falls out of the sky because the ipads didn't work.
Seriously??

I've seen some silly comments on this thread from people who are clearly not commercial pilots but this one tops the lot!

Is that how planes work? They just fall out of the sky when something malfunctions? An iPad stops working and all of a sudden the laws of physics change so that a plane "falls out of the sky"??

Please tell me you're not being serious!?!
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Old Mar 25, 2013, 09:02 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Luis Ortega View Post
Yeah, until a plane falls out of the sky because the ipads didn't work.
Yes, just like a plane will crash automatically if coffee spills on an approach chart.
Nothing, in aviation, is left to chance.
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Old Mar 25, 2013, 11:14 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by 92jlee View Post
Replacing books with consumer devices that will be obsolete in a few years. Fantastic idea.
Paper chats and books are obsolete every 2 months, requiring new 50 Lb of paper PER PILOT and one per airplane. 90% of that paper is not even touched by crew who fly the same route.

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Originally Posted by Squilly View Post
I thought you didn't get reception that high?
Unless the plane has WiFi...
All data is loaded and checked on the ground.

I got reception at 9,ooo ft once (ATT 3G).
Today aircraft are being upgraded to have internet access via satellite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAndonian View Post
This seems really cool and all, but it seems strange to me that they always tell passengers to turn off their electronic devices during takeoff and landing, but now it's ok to use iPads in the cockpit??
FAA changed it policy, it is now OK to use electronic devices (except cell phones) in all phases of flight except takeoff/landing, IIRC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by techpr View Post
Ironic for the same device.
See previous comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KdParker View Post
The iPads are a good idea, but wouldn't it be prudent to keep at least one hard copy of the manual onboard?
For now, but likely that will be replaced with another iPad.
The paper gets outdated quickly. In fact daily NOTAM's need to be printed and referred to with that paper.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luis Ortega View Post
Yeah, until a plane falls out of the sky because the ipads didn't work.
So, please tell my how airplanes flew without iPad's?

Considering the number of accidents becuase the pilots had the wrong information in hand, the iPad can increase safety.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luis Ortega View Post
Yeah, until a plane falls out of the sky because the ipads didn't work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00sjsl View Post
You could easily imagine a software update intruducing a bug where the pdf viewer locks at some particular point in a pdf.
Checked on ground after each update for correct operation.
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Old Mar 25, 2013, 11:24 AM   #62
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Strictly as a passenger, I have enjoyed reading this thread. Thank you to the very knowledgeable pilots (and others with experience) who have contributed their thoughts. While I was already convinced that in theory at least an iPad could be superior to the paper manuals, now I can't wait for iPads to become standard everywhere, and paper manuals relinquished to the recycling bins.

One of the big surprises from reading this thread was how often the paper manuals were being opened up to have pages removed and added. I am sure that the occasional human error in adding those pages has itself caused numerous potential problems when a pilot has turned to a page and not found the reference needed. And yet, somehow that plane has "not fallen out of the sky."

Cheers
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Old Mar 25, 2013, 03:12 PM   #63
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Yes, having immediate response items memorized for emergency situations is standard procedure for pilot training, and is something that's retested on a periodic basis. What's also standard procedure is to have a written checklist that can be run after the initial response. This checklist will ensure that the PF and the PNF didn't forget anything due to distractions, and will expand upon the procedure to cover lower priority action items and procedures that should be performed once the immediate danger is under control. Checklists aren't a crutch for pilots with poor memories, they're a tool that help prevent mistakes and enhance the knowledge and training that pilots retain.

Here's an example: When Sullenberger and Skiles successfully ditched their USAir A320 into the Hudson, they (specifically Skiles) were running checklists the whole way down. They made an outstanding demonstration of how emergencies should be handled, and I'd be honored and privileged if I ever had the change to fly with them, either as a passenger or a pilot.
I highly doubt a checklist is going to help when the plane is going nose down and there are no controls working.
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Old Mar 25, 2013, 03:17 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by unplugme71 View Post
I highly doubt a checklist is going to help when the plane is going nose down and there are no controls working.
That's not how airplanes work =-)
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Old Mar 25, 2013, 04:21 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by scott4long View Post
That's not how airplanes work =-)
Exactly!

Again, referring to my post a few posts back, I'm amazed at how many people who have no idea about even the basics of flight somehow feel compelled to make stupid comments. Unless you're a commercial pilot, please try not to criticise the use of iPads on a large passenger plane, you're just making an idiot out of yourself.
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Old Mar 25, 2013, 04:47 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by d4zza View Post
Exactly!

Again, referring to my post a few posts back, I'm amazed at how many people who have no idea about even the basics of flight somehow feel compelled to make stupid comments. Unless you're a commercial pilot, please try not to criticise the use of iPads on a large passenger plane, you're just making an idiot out of yourself.
I would have loved to replace my flight case with an iPad while I was still doing 121 flying. The case was just another thing to lug around and trip over all day; good riddance. I had friends at Skywest that started the switch 18 months ago, and they were overjoyed.

For 91 flying, I've already downsized my flight kit to be just just my iPad mini, procedure checklists, my headset, a flashlight, and a few sets of extra batteries. It makes the cockpit so much less crowded. Also, no need to unfold and refold charts, thumb through approach books, blindly dig through the case for that one chart set that you need but just can't find, etc. I'd say that safety, especially solo flying safety, improves dramatically with an iPad. 121 safety also improves because there's much less of a chance of human error in replacing pages. In fact, I'd say that error in managing the paper is much more likely than failure of the device, let alone 2 devices. And in the worst case, you can always declare an emergency and get ATC to help talk you down. Even then, I have the same apps and charts loaded onto my iphone as a backup.

Last edited by scott4long; Mar 25, 2013 at 05:09 PM.
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Old Mar 25, 2013, 06:22 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by 92jlee View Post
Replacing books with consumer devices that will be obsolete in a few years. Fantastic idea.
As with most production things.

Who cares if they're obsolete. They should last for years, after which they can be recycled and replaced with a later model.

In all fairness, as they are corporate issue, they won't connect much to the net, so won't need iOS updates, so they can continue as they are for as long as the battery holds. Bear in mind they're already using an external battery solution to power the device, it gives an almost unlimited lifespan. Especially as they'll have mounts and be secure, or be in the pilot's flight bag.

They aren't going to get dog eared or need replacing every few months as they can be updated by the company by being swapped out with one that has updated software, whereas paper charts and books do need replacing regularly.

Once the iPad has been returned and swapped, it can be updated and given to another pilot. To me that's damn good resource management.
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Old Mar 26, 2013, 01:15 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by bcburrows View Post
I am afraid that whilst I am not remotely concerned about using books manuals etc that other people have touched....something we do all day everyday.... The statement that bacteria/viruses can only live for a shirt time out of the body is complete tosh on the whole, have you by any chance recently re-watched 'Outbreak'?

Whilst a small number of bacteria/viruses are poor survivors in certain environments, generally they are exceptionally hardy. There was even a report by NASA that some streptococci survived in the vacuum of space during the Apollo missions after an accidental contamination by ground crew......
Look! Am talking about the most common viruses of cold and flu! They survive outside human body just as long as you could survive in the top of Everest. Yes, there is bacteria's that can survive in the boiling water or in the harsh freezing temperatures of Antarctica. But these are different type of bacteria's and they don't usually choose to live in a human body. If you are really concerned about touching with your bare hand what other people touch, you may as well find away to live in a soap bubble! You are in close contact with people every day, regardless if you touch or not touch what they touch! The airplane magazine theory is silly IMO.
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Old Mar 26, 2013, 11:09 AM   #69
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Look! Am talking about the most common viruses of cold and flu! They survive outside human body just as long as you could survive in the top of Everest. .....
Up to 6 hours, or two 2 hour flights including turn-around time on the ground. Link

-----

What will be interesting to see are the various modifications to the iPad installations will need to be devised as pilots get more familiar with them in difficult situations. I'd be particularly interested in what happens in bright sun glare when the surface may be hard to see.

I also wonder what version of iPad the airlines will be receiving. It seems to me - as a non-pilot - that the airlines won't need the newest models... that for this task an older model will work fine for years.... Apple gets to unload older models, airlines get to save some money.
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Old Mar 26, 2013, 12:00 PM   #70
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I'd sure hope so. But then again, I wouldn't want a pilot to navigate me if he needs to reference from a book.
Every commercial pilot relies on charts, checklists and books, and pieces of paper (or iPads)... You cannot hope to remember every single airport approach, weight details, all procedures for the various aeroplanes that they fly, frequencies for nav beacons (VOR and NDB and ILS), NOTAMs, METAR data, etc. It's just way too much information.

Also with checklists and everything written down, the idea is to do things to the checklists every single time. It avoids bad habits and shortcuts. The pilots (and flight engineer in the few planes left flying that require one) monitor each other, based on checklists and procedures to make sure that everything is safe and are not afraid to call each other out if something isn't being done right.

It is exceedingly rare that a problem will cause a plane to suddenly fall out of the sky. Even with total engine failure depending on height the plane will glide for many miles. This means that pilots have ample time to consult the checklists and do things right.

Remember there are tens if not hundreds of lives on each passenger flight, plus those of people on the ground.

I'd much rather pilots had these pieces of paper, charts and books (or iPads). I want them to make sure they do the job right.

----------

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Originally Posted by snberk103 View Post
I also wonder what version of iPad the airlines will be receiving. It seems to me - as a non-pilot - that the airlines won't need the newest models... that for this task an older model will work fine for years.... Apple gets to unload older models, airlines get to save some money.
It would make sense to use the iPad 2. A retina display wouldn't be required, they're a current model (but older and proven technology) and they'll be able to snap up refurbs for a year or so after Apple stops producing them new.

A matte screen protector should sort out the worst of the glare issues. As long as they're looked after then they should be good for 4-5 years of constant use. By which time, they'll have had plenty of time to certify the next device they intend to use.

----------

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Originally Posted by IJ Reilly View Post
I believe Apple still only certifies the iPad to 10,000 feet of pressure altitude, so this could be a part of the reason why it took so long. It might not have been about explosive decompression so much as just plain old decompression. As far as I can tell, American and Alaska are the only large Part 121 operators who have even tried to get the iPad approved for all phases of flight.
Why would that be an issue. Pressurisation would keep the cabin/cockpit altitude below 10,000 feet anyway Any depressurisation would be noticed before it became an issue (unless it was explosive) and a descent would be made to counter the issue.
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Old Mar 26, 2013, 12:28 PM   #71
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....
Why would that be an issue. Pressurisation would keep the cabin/cockpit altitude below 10,000 feet anyway Any depressurisation would be noticed before it became an issue (unless it was explosive) and a descent would be made to counter the issue.
Thanks for your answers....

I suspect the certification was to ensure that the iPads still functioned at the lower altitude after an explosive decompression. You wouldn't want a sudden change in pressure inside an iPad causing a hardware malfunction just when you really need it. Obviously, they will work fine. I'm sure the FAA people did their best to devise a test that would break an iPad.
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Old Mar 26, 2013, 01:36 PM   #72
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I wonder if they play Pocket Planes during downtime.

"Captain were ready to begin our decent."

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Old Mar 26, 2013, 09:14 PM   #73
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As a private pilot, you apparently don't know much about the Airline industry and what an effort it has taken to get approval for this in Part 121 Carrier Operations. There is a reason this is reported as a "first". I am a pilot for Delta Air Lines, and we are in the process of getting the same approval. It has been "in test" with the FAA for over 18 months. Getting a process like this approved, across a fleet of 700 aircraft, of various types and configurations, and trained to a pilot group of 12,000 pilots is very significant.
Yep. I know that for some devices NASA uses it's the same thing. By the time they are done approving some devices, they are already obsolete by consumer standards!!
Also, once they've gotten approvals, they keep using them for a loooooong time.
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